where to go from here

It really has helped me a whole lot and I am so thankful for all of your advice! Yes, you are so right, it is very hard to prove and everything can always be open to some other, more positive interpretation. I did decide to talk to him last night on my own terms, and we talked for several hours in what I thought at the time was a very telling talk, i.e. that he couldn't tell me what he wanted. It was "lets just get divorced", then "lets separate for six months", then "I love you unconditionally", then "I just need space", but when pressed on it I asked him if from his perspective our romantic relationship was over. He couldn't really answer. At the time he said maybe we should see a therapist to help us and I agreed. However, what is so disconcerting to me is that this afternoon we were in a car on the way to get our kids and he now told me his ideal scenario is us being what he called "all but divorced" for six months where he dates other people but we still live together and co-parent (and I could date other people too which I would not be ready to do anytime soon even if I did feel done with this relationship). And of course he told me that part right as the kids were about to get in the car so I couldn't really address it, but I do feel like I have whiplash. Then the other part is things like finding him on the shower floor because he is so depressed he can't even stand up. Maybe I should consider separating and living together to not have to mess with finances and disrupting the kids, but if that was the case I would have to have ironclad boundaries in place. I think I would have to take away each and every perk of our relationship and make it stay that way and it would be really hard. Definitely something to think about. I feel very rushed by him, I'd really like to see a therapist myself first to work through all of this.


I'm glad you have had a more mellow week. I really hope it stays that way for you and you too are focusing on taking care of yourself. If there's one thing I want to do for my daughter it will be to teach her (and hopefully show her too) to not put herself last like I have because she will be so much better for it.

Wow, you are dealing with so much

Your situation is just so sad for you and your kids. He wants what he wants when he wants it, and he doesn't seem to be very concerned with anyone's feelings but his own.

I feel the same way about my dd- wanting her to understand what I didn't. And for her to never end up allowing herself to be mistreated, especially by the person who is supposed to love and care for her more than anyone.

Mine always tried to get his shots in right at the last minute so that the conversation is forced to end with him in a position of power and control. That's just manipulative and irritating beyond belief.

Do you possibly have anyone you trust who you could share some of this with IRL? A friend or family member? In retrospect, one of the biggest regrets for me was that I essentially covered for dh for years, (thinking he had a medical problem and that it would get better), so when things went really bad at one point, it was a dead end with no one who knew what was going on- no one to turn to and talk to. It's just something to think through. Only you know what's right for you, but I wish I had someone who had known what was going on all along, and who could possibly offer support. In other words, maybe don't protect him at the expense of yourself.

Hope you are doing okay.

I know, it really is sad isn't it? I have told my best friend so that has been a great resource and I am looking for an individual therapist for me so hopefully that pans out soon. I have to tell you, I am so so angry. I wish my "Angry Smile" book had arrived, but it couldn't be delivered fast, because I'd love to decode my H's insane behavior. After the complete turn around I mentioned above, he also is telling me things like our entire relationship was a lie, that he never loved me and always had doubts. I know I shouldn't engage with him, but when I showed him cards and letters he wrote me saying quite the contrary, about me being his one true love and not being able to live without me, he tells me he was trying to make it work and didn't mean it. He's also telling me things like having 3 kids under 4 was not hard, it is not hard being a single women in our group of friends at the school, and that I constantly bad mouth him to others (which is completely not the case, I am not perfect but that is something I do not do). When pressed for examples he told me once I told someone he had a fear of flying...I know it is an overused buzzword but I feel like he's gaslighting me. If I am to believe that he never loved me or wanted to be with me but stayed with me for 17 years, I don't know how I could trust myself or anyone else ever again so maybe that is the intended effect. Like you say, I think he is trying regain his power and control.
He's also telling me that I "won't have any trouble dating".

I really do not feel like dealing with divorce right now and separating our assets, so I feel like it is probably best to separate with boundaries that way I can keep my kids with me and then go see a lawyer and figure out the best way to protect myself. Luckily he went out of town for a few days otherwise I feel like I would explode. I think anger is a good next stage of this process.


Hope that you had a relaxing weekend and everything is going well and calmly on your end.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. No one should have to deal with anything like this.

I understand that sometimes there are a lot of moving parts and the answers aren't simple. Please take care of yourself first and foremost as you navigate this bizaar situation. Have you looked at the book Codependent No More? That might be a good choice for you, especially if you are remaining in the situation for the time being. Reading that book was very empowering for me. It made me realize just how much power and control I have, helped me establish strong boundaries, and taught me that you can heal yourself while living with a disordered person. Ideally, my life would look different than it does, but... Lots of moving parts and I'm a work in progress.

That's good that your friend knows. Don't protect his disorder at the expense of yourself.

It sounds like your dh may fall on that cluster b spectrum (narcissism, borderline, etc) and it's pretty common for them to flop back and forth about whether they love you, or that you've been the worst person who ever walked the face of the earth. I think that falls under 'splitting.'. It's not you, it's the broken child in him turning to whatever makes him feel the most powerful and in control in that moment.

Enjoy your time without him. Our house tends to be so smooth and peaceful when mine's not here, which is just so sad. DD commented that it's weird, because much of the time, he's just sitting in his chair, like an angry zombie watching videos on his phone, so how does he negatively affect the house? It's just the stormy mood he takes everywhere he goes. A big part of healing is that whole thing about not allowing others to dictate our feelings and moods, but then again, as human beings, we are hardwired to pick up on these things from others, so it's natural. I was reading an article the other day about how we have built in "BS sensors" that allow us to pick up on when other people are being disingenuous- and yet counselors often give the benefit of the doubt that's counter to those internal sensors. We should always listen to our own gut feelings.

Take care of yourself. You deserve that much and more.

Thank you, I am actually sort of excited because I have found a therapist I am meeting with next week and I am hopeful she will be able to guide me a little better and also help me focus on what I want. I've never attended therapy for myself, only before in the context of marriage counseling which was all about my H. It is funny how I have gone through life not only never thinking about what I want, but also thinking that asserting your wants is selfish, even though it isn't at all. I think that is something that is very common with women so I hope she can help me with that aspect too and I do look forward to the personal growth in that aspect. I am going to order Codependent No More as well, and as an ebook so I can read it whenever I want! The splitting idea is very insightful, my H has a ton of childhood trauma and issues with his family and parents so this rings true for him and I do think it will help me deal with him.

Also, when you say that about your house being smooth and peaceful without him, and that when your H is there he is like a zombie watching videos, that literally could be my situation, if you substitute videos for playing videogames. But it is the same thing. It is like gloom descends upon the house and we all have to walk on eggshells. My H used to joke that he was like Charlie Brown in that a dark cloud follows him around but it is very true most of the time.


I really cannot thank you enough for continuing to have this conversation with me and passing along your pearls of knowledge and wisdom, they have helped me so much through this very difficult time.

I'll be curious to hear what you think about Codependent No More. The quote above feels very codependent. I have lived a great deal of my life that way as well.

There's a free printable pdf workbook for CNM somewhere online (at least there use to be). That was also helpful to work through once I'd read the book. If you are interested, and can't find it, let me know and I'll look for it. It seems like it was available from a codependency group out of Tulsa or somewhere near there.

I'm really happy if this has been helpful to you. It's taken a lot of time and energy to get to this point, if the experience can help someone else in some way, that's wonderful.

Hope you are good.

Yes, so I finished Codependent No More. It was very interesting but I definitely only identify with the part that is talking about never thinking about what you want. A lot of the other stuff was pretty foreign to me and I do feel lucky that is the case. Either way it was very interesting reading and I actually think my H has a very codependent relationship with his father so that was enlightening to put the pieces together on that. My copy of Angry Smile finally arrived today and I am very excited to delve into it. We've reached a status quo more or less here for now but I can't wait to read all about the PA behaviors and how to better deal with them, I think it will end up helping me a lot!

That's probably a good thing if you don't identify much with codependency. Hopefully that means that you have boundaries and a sense of self that are still intact.

Hope you find the other book useful. I thought it was one of those overall good reads- something you can apply to life in general, whether a close relationship, a work relationship, or any other. It a strange topic, one that's very common, and yet seems to fly under the radar much of the time.

I am going to use Angry Smile as my guidebook from now on. LOL. I am still working my way through it but I just finished the chapter on "Counter-Passive Agressive" behavior and I find the whole thing pertinent and fascinating.

I just had my first visit with my new therapist yesterday and even though I probably could have been talking to a brick wall as long as someone listened to me and validated what I was saying I found it very helpful. I think Angry Smile is helpful to me in trying to decode and respond to the way my husband communicates. Some of it I do think is this passive aggressive way of dealing with things coupled with he doesn't know what he wants. For example, in the span of 24 hours I hear from him that me being nice to him may not be enough to save him or our relationship vs. we should see this psychiatrist to help us with end of marriage discussions. Maybe in his mind those two things aren't mutually exclusive but it gives me whiplash. I still have no idea what is going to happen but my therapist encouraged me to really put down boundaries in terms of (1) not tolerating my husband's disrespectful behavior and calling him out on it in the moment and (2) in changing how I am acting towards him, i.e. still care-taking. If he doesn't want to be married, then I shouldn't give him the benefits. It is definitely something to think about. I was expressing to her how hard it is to try and heal a relationship and/or live with someone who acts like they hate you. It is so challenging for me and I worry that I somehow will become accustomed to and accept the way he acts towards me.


How are things with you lately? I cannot think you enough for all the literature recommendations and thoughts, they still continue to help me in this very difficult time.

It's great to hear that you're getting something out of the book. It's the one book that I wish I'd found a few years earlier. Hopefully you can implement some of the ideas and change your situation for the better. Even if it doesn't change the dynamic with your dh, maybe it will at least give you a sense of better boundaries with him.

Early on, and without knowing better, I inadvertently did so many things opposite of counter PA, and made things much worse. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, believing that he was as interested in fixing things and being more cohesive, even though he wasn't making efforts in that direction- I begged, talked, consoled, cajoled, enabled, etc. and in the end, all that happened was that I lost my power in the relationship, and he doubled down on his.

That's good advice from the counselor. Hopefully she turns out to be very helpful to you. There's just something really disconnected about how they (yours and mine both) seem to think that they should be able to have their cake and eat it too. The scenarios are a little different with my dh, but the underlying message is similar- he wants what he wants, and there isn't much room for compromise. Mine, anyway, is very much like a child. One who over idealizes how certain people should cater to his whims and wants, without seeing that it's not realistic or fair, or requires some effort on his part. It's very immature thinking.

It sounds like your dh bounces around a lot too- mentally and emotionally. DD and I say that we never know who's going to walk into the room from one hour to the next- and it's true. I don't invest or engage in dh's words a whole lot because he can be so scattered. I listen with respect and compassion, register what he says, but words are just words and he can talk until he's blue in the face and nothing will ever change. Actions matter, and he's not currently someone who is able to take much initiative to do productive things- at least not with the other people in the house.

It's really good to get the update from you. It would be interesting to hear how things might change once you take a different approach, either with counter PA, or on the therapist's advice. You're doing a great job being proactive and valuing yourself!

As for how things are here… not much different. He had his medical tests about 10 days ago. I haven't been told anything, so have to assume that means they didn't find anything significant. No idea what he's getting from being so difficult to communicate with. It's sad, because any benefit to that is literally all in his head

Take care and hope that the coming week is good for you!

Oh for sure. I need to set those boundaries otherwise I will get walked all over. I suggested that my husband go to the grocery store today, the past several months I've been doing 100% of the grocery shopping and just cooking all his meals and taking care of him, and he definitely pushed back. But I do think there's something to what the therapist suggested about me not keeping the status quo if he wants to change it. It is really hard for me not to default to taking care of him but if I am definitely going to work on changing what I can and do feel comfortable with.


You are totally right, there is something very disconnected about how they want everything their way and are willing to sacrifice nothing. I was just telling the therapist that its like a teenager almost, or a toddler throwing a temper tantrum, I'm not sure which fits better. But, an adult acknowledging that a certain life-altering action is probably not right, not going to make them happy and is a bad idea but they may just have to "learn things the hard way" is something a teenager does, not an adult. There is definitely something to that and the fact that you have no idea what you are going to get. On my end, for my husband, it is a lot of uncontrolled anger that gets misdirected. This morning I was showing him some art one of my good friends just got that is so cool and his take away is "everyone else can afford nice art but us". I am not even sure that is true, but I think that shows the mindset. In that same conversation, we were chatting and he told me to "stop" speaking in a rude way so I went to leave and told me "stay here" and I said to him, that is just you in a nutshell. The vacillating back and forth is really hard.

All that to say, I find what you are saying about listening with respect and compassion but really focusing on actions not words very wise and helpful. I am going to start trying to implement that. He has made an appointment for us at the end of this week with someone one of his therapists recommended about what he calls "end of marriage" stuff. I have pressed him on what that means and he really can't say. I am definitely not looking forward to it and I feel like he is going to ambush me, that there are things that he won't say to my face because he thinks they will upset me but he feels somehow more comfortable saying them in front of a therapist. I know how hard emotional work it was to be in marriage counseling and that was when I feel like we both wanted the same end result. Now, I have no idea what he wants and so I am not looking forward to this. I do have a meeting with my therapist before that so I am hoping she will come up with a plan with me to help deal with it. I don't do too well on the spot.

I totally hear you about trying to understand what they are getting from being difficult to communicate with. Honestly, your guess is as good as mine at this point. I'm sorry that's happening for you right now and I hope that you can find some peace at home and have a great week.


S

Hugs to you.

I'm so sorry again for what you are dealing with. It's mind numbing.

Do you think your dh really wants to end the marriage? Or do you think that threat is something that he's trying to use to bring you back into line with his wants? That maybe he's trying to strongarm you emotionally into a place where a divorce doesn't happen, but he gets his way too?

Dr. Ramani on YouTube has a few videos about how narcissists may regularly threaten divorce as a means of manipulation, but then be totally shocked and upset when the other person gets tired of the games and leaves.

I'm worried for you, since he seems to be playing his cards close about what he wants and what might happen at the marriage counselor. I'm not always quick on my feet in settings like that either, so understand your trepidation about how it may go. Maybe take your time, think things through, and don't let anyone pressure you into quick responses on the spot?

That's a good idea to start reminding him about responsibilities that he can participate in. That's true- if he wants to change the status quo, why cater to him? You get to hold that line as you see fit. Still, old habits die hard, and the compulsion to caretake can be pretty ingrained. A lot of the changes I've undergone and implemented have taken time, and sometimes with a few missteps along the way. Change can be difficult, so be gentle with yourself as you learn and practice new boundaries.

Oh, the negativity... That's also something I relate to. It seems like the comparison, complaining, and fault finding are just a part of the victim mindset. They can't say something nice about what someone else has, can't be happy for someone else.

One of DH's habits is that can't say anything positive about any of the neighbor's houses- no compliments on a nice lawn, or a pretty flower garden- because that would be about someone else. But if one of the neighbors is so much as missing a window screen, he'll fixate on it. It's like he goes out of his way to look for something that can be used to minimize the other person, or it's something that's somehow offensive or hurtful to him.

Yeah, try setting aside his words for a while and see what his actions tell you. It can be an interesting little experiment. Words can be very manipulative, and easy to use. Actions are harder to fake because they require an actual commitment. Think about if someone promises to show up on time, but never does- pointless promises. The only way those words matter is if they're paired with action. The action of showing up on time, without words, speaks for itself too.

As for me, I'm a little worn down at the moment. After not speaking all weekend, dh went hypomanic yesterday, which is a whole different facet to this mess. He can't/won't acknowledge the hypomania, so it goes unaddressed. His summer episodes tend to be the worst, so I'm walking on eggshells a bit at the moment…

I'll be sending prayers and positive thoughts your way all week, especially with that counseling session you have coming up. Stay strong

I think he is not able to consistently tell me or express what he wants because right now he is being lead by his depression and desperation to "escape" and he will say that at times, but then that can be countered directly by his guilt, which makes him say something else. The other hard thing for me is he is definitely someone who says things he doesn't mean or takes back and I am not. So many times I tend to take him and what he says at face value when I shouldn't. This is one of the reasons that what you said about looking at someone's actions really felt like a very good idea for me. I have already started implementing that advice and it always makes me feel better to be actively doing something so thank you.


One of the problems for me right now is I have a few good friends going through divorces so I have seen them in the nitty-gritty of it and I have no interest in it right now, especially for my kids but for me too. But, at the same time, I don't see how him seeing other people while we separate will ever lead back to us being in a happy marriage. I can't say 100% because I haven't been there yet so who really knows, but while I can handle this "angst" or whatever you call what he is going through, I can't see him actually leaving and then being able to trust him enough to come back and go from there. Why would I when he knows he can always have a way out that allows him to "have his cake and eat it too?".

I am super nervous about this appointment, it is tomorrow morning. Luckily I am seeing my therapist this afternoon, and she also specializes in marriage counseling, so I am going to come up with a plan with her which I think will make me feel better. After my H initially broke this news that he was "done" with our relationship, we had so many conversations about it but in the past few weeks we haven't spoken too much about our situation other than thinly veiled comments by him.


It is so so hard for me to stop care taking him. I'm not sure how much I will be able too, even though I completely see the validity to stopping and having my own life. My therapist suggested I just leave for a week, but I just don't feel like I am in a position to do it right now. I'm telling myself baby steps.

The negativity you described with your H sounds so similar to my situation. It is like a compliment to anyone else is a direct insult to them, isn't it? It is so hard. I don't know how to get them out of that mindset either, but the troubling thing is one of my kids (and he is 7) has started to adopt this, so maybe it is just something they are born with? As I have explained to my son, it is a very hard way to live your life if every compliment about someone else you view as an insult to you. I hope I can have some effect on him but I'm not optimistic about my H. If someone else is rich, it insults him because we aren't. If someone else has success, he views it as his failure. The only exception would be with me or our kids.

I'm sorry you are dealing with a hard episode. Do you have any idea why it is worse in the summer? There is an interesting seasonality/pattern to these kinds of things so it would be interesting to know. Also, I feel for me as the partner it is so much worse when they won't acknowledge something is wrong. Sometimes, all I want to hear is H to admit what is happening or be realistic and it seems like it would be so much easier to deal with, doesn't it? I hope that you are hanging in there and I will let you know how the counseling goes...

Just a small update - we saw the therapist together and I am very relieved that I heard nothing new or surprising. That does not mean it is positive news, I still hear that he is done, nothing can be done to save our marriage, and the like, but I was not blindsided so I feel good about that. Surprisingly, his attitude towards me has been slightly better. Both my personal therapist and this therapist have suggested giving him more space so I am planning to do that. This therapist we saw together told me to stop doing stuff for him, in front of him, so I felt like that was good to be given permission to make an active effort not to care-take him. He is still completely emotionally detached not just from me, but from our kids, his own family, and everyday life. I'm glad we saw her so we can have someone work with us to figure everything out, and I think she was pretty even handed so that is good. I still hate everything about this situation for me and my kids, but I guess we're all in a lot of therapy so hopefully that has some effect and will help us.


I hope you are hanging in there, it is so hot here and I am ready for fall.

Thanks for posting the update. I've been thinking about you and wondering how it went.

Glad you didn't get blindsided and that you felt okay about the therapist.

I'm a bit short on time today, but will try to get back soon.

In the meantime,

Hey again.

Again, that's really good that the counselor wasn't terrible. Your hesitation is completely understandable, not knowing what to expect, but it sounds like she was relatively objective and fair- all things considered.

Your personal counselor sounds like she's good too.

It's nice of you to give him some benefit of the doubt and see that he may become emotionally overwhelmed and say things he doesn't mean. That's a fact for some people with mental health/personality disorders. At the same time though, they still have to take responsibility for their actions and words, because they are technically adults. It may be helpful if you are able to see his limitations though. For me, this often looks like not over-engaging with dh if he's acting in emotional and baiting ways (immaturity). I see the uncontrolled child and separate from it for everyone's sake. Sometimes you alone have to be the adult in the room…

Actions can definitely speak louder than words. It might also help to make notes in a journal, if you don't already. That way you won't forget what happened as one thing morphs into another.

I respect your not wanting to pursue a divorce at present. Your situation is unique to you. As I've said before, my situation is a lot more complex than what's been posted on the forums. There are many, many reasons why I'm still where I am. But at the same time, you can start rebuilding your sense of self, and deciding what boundaries you need for yourself while you're still in the situation. If he's going to do something that makes the relationship lopsided and uncomfortable, you can decide for yourself what you need to balance it out and make it comfortable for you.

How is that to try and figure out how it would be to live together, but separately with your spouse? Have you come up with concrete ideas of how to navigate that? I can only send hugs, as it's difficult to imagine how you manage that sort of thing.

It sounds like yours may put his needs ahead of the childrens', which mine also does, and is hard for me to understand. Like, one of your main jobs at this point is to parent your children and set the good example, so sometimes you need to backburner yourself- mine can't do that for her sake, never could very effectively. It was surprising, as before she was born, I couldn't have imagined him being so self focused at the expense of his child

Would leaving for a week actually be realistic for you? It wouldn't be for me. Don't feel bad if you can't physically leave for even a short time, this is again that individual life thing that others may not fully understand.

No idea what's going on with my dh. It looks a little like cycles of bipolar, with predictable highs in late winter and summer, and a bad depression in the spring. Other times of the year are predictable too, but not quite as extreme. The counselor and psychiatrist asked him if he had trouble sleeping and he said no, so they automatically ruled out bipolar or cyclothymia, and didn't ask any more questions about the behaviors in question . So far, this year hasn't been as bad as last year, probably because his physical health isn't quite as good right now, and last year he was on antidepressants that escalated the hypomania. But the doctors tell me to mind my own business and not try to find problems with him, so that's all I can do right now…

Hope that you have a peaceful weekend. Hoping the same for myself…. Dh finally told me the other day that he's still waiting on his test results, so he's undoubtedly stressed about that.

Thinking of you and hope it's going okay.

Thanks for checking in. I am definitely struggling today. I find that the day(s) after therapy are really difficult for me, it is like you let the floodgates out and then it is hard to cope with what was unleashed. As for our couples therapy, there are a few things she said that sort of bothered me. Based on my experience with two different couples therapists, they tend to favor my husband. And, maybe that is some technique where they feel he needs the most help so they want to be on his side? But, she said a few things one directly questioning me that I felt were a little harsh. Although, could be what I need, but said nothing of the sort to him. I do really like my personal counselor and she is very caring which is definitely what I need right now.


I actually do journal every few days, I have always found when I am going through a hard time that it is very helpful to me to get my thoughts on paper, it helps me also to organize how I think. I also keep a running list in my phone of notes to discuss with my therapist each week so I don't forget. I think apart from my husband's behavior, I struggle a lot with being able to cope with how I ended up where I am and how I don't have much control over my situation. Even three months ago, when I know my H was going through a struggle, I would have told anyone with 100% certainty that no matter what we would get through anything together. That was my entire world view and to go from that to this is a crazy shift for me that I can't get my head around. This is also part of why it is hard for me/us to live together and/or separate and have boundaries. He (like I would wager many men) has no idea how much I do for him, and I don't even mean that in a negative way, just that there are things I do without thinking. I am trying to stop doing them as best I can but it is SO HARD!


He totally puts his own needs ahead of our children. In some ways I used to admire it because it doesn't make him feel guilty the way it does when I do anything for myself. I am with you, I also never would have imagined it before we had kids and honestly I never would have imagined it even five years ago. He used to be such a wonderful and involved father and slowly I think he has given up. In a way, I do understand where he is coming from based on his upbringing that he felt like he never got a say in anything and just floated along. I just disagree with the fact that our marriage, our family and our life have to be a necessary sacrifice of that. But, I believe people can control a lot and play a big part in how they feel and he feels like a lost victim, so that is why we disagree.


About your DH, that is interesting that they automatically rule out bipolar if he doesn't have trouble sleeping. I am glad he told shared with you that he is still waiting on the test results and maybe that is causing extra stress that will be at least temporarily abated once he finds out. I sure hope so for your sake? Thanks for being on this bumpy ride with me. I hope that you have a wonderful and relaxing weekend!

Hugs for you

I'm so sorry you are struggling, but that's understandable given the circumstances. Sometimes it feels like the stuff that starts coming out will never stop. Hope you might be feeling a little better today.

My dh has always been clever, fast on his feet, and a good talker (even mentally compromised he can summon it for an hour or so). That makes the idea of going to counseling with him terrifying. He has the ability to be quite manipulative, and doctors and counselors definitely favor him much of the time. Honestly, I also think there are still a lot of stereotypes that women are unstable and emotional, and men are the more rational ones- and that bias gets in the way for some of us.

Thank goodness you have your own counselor. She sounds like a good one.

He (like I would wager many men) has no idea how much I do for him, and I don't even mean that in a negative way, just that there are things I do without thinking. I am trying to stop doing them as best I can but it is SO HARD!

Oh yeah, those are us who are caretakers give without thinking too much about it, and our counterparts take like they are entitled to it, without much appreciation. I guess that's why we have to be the ones to see the lopsidedness and fix it for our own sake. Thing for me is that I'm a giver, don't mind being a giver, but also need to get some of that in return. When it's all one sided… well, you know!

Looking back before the huge shift in your DH's demeanor, do you see some red flags that go back further?

With mine, I can look back and see a lot of subtle covert and PA behaviors that look like they might have given way to bigger, more overt behaviors as time went on. There's a book titled "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" that's really good at explaining how dysfunctional, abusive relationships escalate over time. It was eye opening, especially realizing that a lot of my DH's confusing behaviors were really about his need for control. While I was trying to be cohesive and thinking we were working on getting on the same page, he actually wasn't. He was on a page all his own that benefited him and him alone, and kept him in a power position.

Your dh sounds like mine in that he externalizes so much blame. In his mind, most of his problems are rooted outside of himself and he doesn't take responsibility. The world happens to him… If you try to reason with the victim mindset, they just think they're being victimized more by your unreasonable assessment of their shortcomings

My dh got his test results back yesterday and they turned up very little aside from some relatively routine stomach troubles. That should be good news, but he's really upset. He is trying to use the stomach problem to explain away all of his issues for the past few years. I may have mentioned here before that he comes from a family that stigmatizes mental health issues, so that doesn't help him in any way. Talking to him last night was sad because he was in a frame of mind where he could admit being aware of his cognitive issues- that he can't think fast or focus like he used to. So right now I'm back in that place of wondering if it's neurological, psychological, or personality. Or all 3.

It's a sucky ride. I'm sorry you're in this boat too.

Hope you are able to enjoy some of today - I know it's hard sometimes. The longer this has gone on with dh, the better I've gotten at accepting the weirdness and working around it to not let it drag me down so much.

Do you do a lot of activities with your kids? My DD loves to do arts and crafts type things and play games. We do a lot of those things to try and stay sane.

I totally agree with you about the stereotypes and how (even female) therapists react to them. Also, my H is extremely well spoken and can articulate his points very well. I also think there's something to the fact that my H has been in talk therapy off and on for his entire adult life so he has a lot more experience eloquently talking through his feelings. All I do is cry, especially these days. The other hard thing about couples therapy for us as a couple right now is that my H is a horrible rule follower, so whenever (even in the past) couples therapists have given us "rules" or a "goal", he is not into it. Like us living our lives more separately now has not gone very much according to plan and he is not going to be the one to do it as it will mostly make his life harder, not mine. Totally about being one-sided, and right now it is mostly for me too.

That is a good question about red flags prior. It is hard for me to say. My H has always had issues, like I said, but I guess to some extent I never let them bother me until he completely checked out of our relationship and all emotion for anyone or anything. Yesterday, two of our kids were occupied and only one was at home with us and my son who was home with us hurt himself (he's perfectly fine now) and we ended up having to take him to get stitches. And, the whole time H was on his phone and my son was begging him to pay attention to him, it was really sad. I can't make him check back in though...that is why I have on my list for my therapist this week to make my therapy about MYSELF.


Thank you for putting that into words re: externalizing blame. that is exactly what it is. I do think that philosophy can influence so much and it is a really powerless position to be in to think life just happens to you and you have no control over anything or how you react. I wish for my H that he could get past that somehow.


That is so complicated re: the medical issues and so hard when the family of origin stigmatizes mental health issues. It is so hard to figure out the confluence of medical, psychological or just personality and how they all interact. I hope that he can try and figure some of it out if only to get to a solution that can help you both!

I had a decent weekend, we had a preplanned family outing that was halfway decent as between my H and I, and the kids had a great time so that was good. Pretty soon school will be started and I will be inundated with sports and activities, which definitely keeps me busy.


It is funny how this type of thing goes. Some days I just feel so sad, like the world as I know it is ending and some days I feel like everything will be okay. I am trying so hard to focus on actions and not words and that is helping me a lot.

I hope you have a good start to the week, I actually like Mondays somewhat because I have meetings and work to distract me!

(((Hugs)))

I'm so sorry if the joint counseling sessions don't feel as cohesive and helpful as you wished. In some weird way, it's almost like he has an advantage and uses it . Wonder what the counselor sees? It seems like maybe it's not accurate to your experience? Sad that it seems to favor him and not serve you quite as well.

The limitation with my dh, that really showed during counseling, was his inability to be accountable and take responsibility. He's so good at externalizing, twisting facts, and blame shifting, that he does it automatically at this point. It's probably like breathing for him. No matter the situation, he generally won't stop until someone else is holding the blame bag. The counselor seems to give him the benefit of the doubt, which just empowers him more. Even DD has noted that his counselor seems to do more harm than good at times, and she probably means well, but....

During that session I joined him, the counselor gave us "homework", and of course he didn't do anything in regard to it, so your situation sounds familiar. No idea what he told her about it when he went back. Don't care. But, I totally get where you are coming from, that he doesn't make the effort that's been asked of him . He readily agreed to it in front of the counselor, however. Guess that's all back to saying the right things, and doing nothing.

My H has always had issues, like I said, but I guess to some extent I never let them bother me until he completely checked out of our relationship and all emotion for anyone or anything.

Yes! I could say the exact same thing. The good parts of him outweighed the bad parts for a long time. I'm pretty easy going, so let lots of "little" things slide (heck, I'm not perfect either). Then it was like it all just came apart at the seams all at once.

Oh gosh, I'm sorry that your son got hurt. Hope he's feeling okay! And so sad that his dad was checked out when your son would obviously like him to be present and empathetic. Those kinds of experiences are a big deal for kids!

It's funny that you mention the phone, because it seems like dh getting a smart phone a few years back was a factor in the beginning of the end. What's on his phone is apparently way more interesting than DD or myself 95% of the time. Sometimes it's like his phone is an alternate reality where he'd much, much rather be. . What did he do before he had the phone? He had no choice but to be more present in the here and now, and to engage/pay attention to what was actually going on around him. He seemed much less depressed before the phone. It's an addiction of sorts.

Yeah, definitely take care of yourself, and work on meeting your own needs. Clearly he's not going to do much for you, at least not at this point. No matter what ends up happening with your dh, there's no downside to improving the way you take care of yourself, love yourself, and to just generally get better and stronger everyday.

You're also right that it's quite a rollercoaster. There's appeal to just getting off of it completely, but it's not always realistic, or immediately attainable. I, too, have days when I don't know how I'll make it to the end of the day, and then days when I'm relaxed and honestly don't care what happens.

Glad your kids had a nice outing. Good memories for them, hopefully.

My DD is a little older and doesn't enjoy spending time with dh anymore, because she's very aware that he's not (or maybe can't be) interested in her as a person. He'll mostly only interact with her when there's something in it for him. It's not meaningful. The selfishness and one-sidedness is very obvious to her.

Hope you're doing okay this week.

Hi, I thought I would check in since I am fresh off of another couples counseling session yesterday. You are totally right on with the advantage he has during these counseling sessions. I do think some of it has to do with the way he approached this counselor and his stated goal of counseling, i.e. how do we separate vs. my stated goal. They are basically at odds but since mine favors more of the status quo to some extent I think she ends up dealing with him and his issues. This counselor is not my favorite as she began yesterday's session with how what initially attracts you to someone can end up driving you crazy about them which was completely off topic and not helpful. However, I will say, she very much challenged him on his idea that some phantom/new sexual connection will fix him or any of his problems. She said if we do separate it should not be with the goal of seeing other people, but instead for him to focus on what he feels like he never had a chance to do which is have any say in his life. On the one hand, I do get that. On the other hand, practically speaking, adults have responsibilities. He has almost come around to the idea that this "sexual connection" won't fix him, but he focuses on it because it could be a rather short term and easy fix to give him direction. He even admits it is not a good idea. So, that is a good thing. The bad thing is that he has all this angst/crisis regarding that he doesn't know what he likes, he doesn't feel like he can make anything of himself in his career and he is numb to caring about me or his kids and that is a problem that he simply does not have the wherewithal to fix right now. He says he feels shame and embarrassed like he is failing me and our family so he just wants to leave. I think in one sense it is helpful for me to understand this better, but this is a "him" problem, not a "me" problem, you know? So, that limits what I can do. My therapist has been telling me a saying, the "three C's" which is if you didn't cause it you can't change it or control it. That is very much what is going on here.


I was just thinking last night how much your advice has helped me, especially last night. My H and I were discussing his crisis and also some issues between his father and my oldest son (admittedly a very emotionally charged issue) and I inadvertently said something that pushed one of his childhood emotional buttons and he started getting angry and crossing boundaries into behavior that makes me uncomfortable, i.e. raised voices, cussing, etc. With my therapist I am really working on calling out that behavior as it happens and shutting it down. And, his first reaction when I did call it out was, "I just need to leave". So, knowing what you have said about actions speaking louder than words, I called him on it and I said, if that is what you feel like you need to do, then you should do it. Well, he had no idea what to do with that and it was really empowering for me. He ended up apologizing and I felt good about setting a boundary but even better about being able to recognize in the moment that what he is saying is not what is going to happen. So I am so grateful for your advice on that measure. It is serving me well and helping me understand the situation much better.

It is a difficult position to be in where your husband is having this crisis and only they can fix it. While our marriage is/wasn't perfect, this crisis is all about him.


I hope that you are having a good weekend. The perspective about therapy is interesting isn't it? I wonder myself how beneficial therapy is long term if the stated goal isn't to teach the person how to help themselves, you know? At some point your issues have to become your own to control and not the fault or in the hands of others. I'm sorry to hear about your DD and your DH, it is so hard to watch that isn't it? When my H makes what I think are glaring mistakes with the kids I end up coming in and trying to clean up and it is just no way to be, is it!

Anyways, thanks for always listening and your insightful tips, I have learned so much from you!

I'm so glad if I've helped you some, you've helped me a great deal too. This week has been especially rough (end of summer always tends to be tough for a couple of reasons). Coming here and reading your posts helped me get recentered in a way that I desperately needed right now.

Wow, it sounds like a lot went down in counseling this past week for you. I hope you are feeling settled after having to process all that . What you said about how he approaches the counselor looking for guidance for what he wants, versus how you want to repair what's already there, is insightful. There is perceived power in seeking change, isn't there? It does seem like counselors tend to gravitate toward the change dynamic.

Those three C's - those are good to remember. Codependents often say "didn't cause it, can't cure it." The third C is important too!

ITA with you about having responsibilities and that it's not always realistic to set them aside. Guessing that thought process is not particularly helpful to you, since you'll be the one who's forced to pick up the slack. At least that's how it would work around here.

That's also good that the counselor seems to be challenging his want for sexual relationships outside of the marriage, rather than validating it on some level. She's right in those assessments. It seems like those relationships might be another external thing he's looking towards? All problems and solutions are outside of himself. And, yeah, what good will that do if he has no idea who he is? It's just a feel good, temporary band aid.

You hit on something very important- maybe it came up here before- about addressing issues in the moment. It sounds like you did a great job catching the manipulative threat, and calling him out on it. Where I made a lot of mistakes early on was missing the moment and then trying to go back and address it a couple hours later. If you can't catch it, and correct the course in the moment, don't try to bring it up later. With a spouse who's PA, they love the idea that they've been stuck in your head and owning your thoughts since the conversation. It becomes positive reinforcement for them. It doesn't sound like that's something you do, but thought it might be worth mentioning.

When he makes those threats now, and you call him out, do they just feel like manipulative attempts now? Somehow smaller than they were before? Of course it's always scary that they could go ahead and call your bluff in return, but unfortunately that may be a chance you have to take to stand up for yourself.

It is very sad for the kids. Sometimes dh will become angry or upset about DD not wanting to do something with him, and he can't seem to understand why. Relationships with our kids are investments that take time, not something you get on demand like from a vending machine.

When she was younger, I did run interference a little more, because it can be confusing for younger kids- but once she was old enough to understand, I stepped back and let him own more of it. That's a difficult balance that you have to figure out for your kids' sake. Sometimes I'd use a more compassionate explanation that still puts the responsibility on him- like maybe telling her 'dad isn't in a good place right now,' or 'dad seems overwhelmed, let's give him some space to figure it out.' Not demeaning, but not candy coating either, sort of basic and factual.

Over the weekend, mine was withdrawn and obviously in a bad place. He left on travel, so there may have been some anxiety he didn't want to admit to- maybe even to himself. He was stonewalling, stuck in his head and phone, doing little passive aggressive things. It's almost like a kid who doesn't know how to deal with, or express, feelings and thoughts. As for me, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I try to talk to him, he gets agro, denies problems, and turns it around on me. If I don't approach him, I'm cold and heartless. No win. Codependency work has taught me to just tell him that I'm here for him if he needs anything, and then remove myself. Back to the ball in his court. But without him being able to take responsibility for his actions, needs, and half of the marriage, it's not productive. At this point, he's not so much a husband and partner as he is an unwell (and often not very nice) friend that I look after.

Anyhow, thank you for also sharing your experiences and helping me to sort and balance my thoughts. There's a lot of comfort and strength in just remembering that I'm not alone.

I'm so sorry it has been a rough week for you, I am glad you are hanging in there and our discourse is helping at least a little bit.

Yes, I totally feel like I have a new understanding of what is going on, although I am not sure it really changes anything except my thoughts and mental process. I do find that my H can be a bit more open on the days we have counseling and less like what I call his "zombie" mode where he is so disconnected. I did share with him that I think the therapist is a little biased but I told him I would reserve judgment for another session or two because he said if I really feel that way we should find another one. I plan on talking with my therapist about this later today but I sort of don't know where to go from here...if my H won't do anything to improve his life or feel more satisfied (or is he even capable of doing so at this point?) what can I do or should I do? I feel sort of stuck in that way but I will admit the utter panic I felt a month ago has settled so I do appreciate that. The fact that he admitted what he did about this "new sexual connection" and it just being some proxy for him to feel like a man and take charge of his life is also really helpful for me just because I knew it couldn't be right that the whole thing was only about that. However, it is still really difficult for me to hear things from him like he doesn't know why he married me or did he ever love me and things like that.


In any event, I do agree with you about the importance of catching the PA behavior in the moment or not at all. My therapist also suggested I call out the behavior at the time it occurs and make a point of that and I do think it has been helpful for me. I don't think it has improved my H's actions towards me that much but at this point it feels like that is asking a lot. I do hope to broach this issue in our couples therapy on Friday because I would like for him to take responsibility for his actions and stop being such a jerk, although I may prefer the snide comments to numb detachment. You ask a really good question about whether the threats seem like manipulation...I really can't tell. I think by nature empty threats are manipulative but it doesn't feel like to me he does it on purpose, it feels like to me he has such issues dealing with emotions and his feelings as a failure that when he makes mistakes he can't deal with it and just wants to leave. He has been that way forever, like if we have a big event or a trip planned always the day before he'll be like "I'm not going" but not in a serious way and he never follows through. I don't know what that is about but I am guessing it has something to do with his parents, like much of everything else.

That is very helpful tips about the kids. My kids tend to come to me with questions for their father so I always try to re-direct them to him. But, they will always ask me "is Daddy feeling okay" because they notice the detachment. I do suppose when they are older they will have to judge for themselves like you are saying. I like the idea of "dad seems overwhelmed" and lets give him some space.


The behavior you are describing about a child who can't express their feelings sounds so familiar. The thing that I struggle with and I'm not sure if you have too, is I wonder at what point my H has to take control of the deficits he had during childhood and overcome them. It is really hard for me because while my parents certainly were not perfect (and of course none are) I did not grow up with major issues from them and I knew/know that they love me unconditionally. Because of that, I know I can't ever really understand what my H is going through. However, back to my original question, at what point does that stop excusing the behavior? Does it ever? Is it always his parents were emotionally stunted/abusive and so is he and he can do whatever he wants because of that and it is never his fault? I struggle hard with that especially because of the external v. internal control we've previously discussed.


It sounds like you have a really good system down to tell your H that you are there for him and then remove yourself. I know the feeling of it not being a partnership and more like an unwell friend who takes their anger out on you (an easy target) and then you take care of him. The unwell part is what makes this so hard. In the end, it is hard for me to predict what is going to happen but it is nice to come here and chat with you and know that I am not alone and to take in all the advice you have to offer. I hope you are enjoying your week and hopefully experiencing some peace and calm.

What a sad club to belong to, huh?

A few weeks ago, I saw a sad statistic about marriage that's not talked about much: it's not that 56% of marriages end in divorce, it's that 20% of the remaining marriages aren't happy, but stay together despite that- whether the reasons are financial, kids, health, cultural, etc. This is probably where I am currently, and trying to make sense of it. It's a shameful place to live. In a marriage, you're supposed to be happy, pretend that you're happy, or get out. You can't be honest or respected in that space between, and yet plenty of people are currently living in it and trying to figure out what to do.

Btw- willing to bet that the 24% of marriages that are happy long term would cite things like respect and maturity as cornerstones of their relationships. Maybe not even list love as a top priority.

I plan on talking with my therapist about this later today but I sort of don't know where to go from here...if my H won't do anything to improve his life or feel more satisfied (or is he even capable of doing so at this point?) what can I do or should I do?

Did your therapist have ideas for you?

If you're not in a place where you can or want to leave the marriage, then maybe the best answer is to just focus on yourself? The only thing you have control over is you. If your dh isn't upholding his end of the marriage, your time may be better spent improving and nurturing yourself. He may note if you're bettering yourself, and then start trying to gravitate back towards you too- even if it's only out of worry that you might leave him behind.

My dh is obviously not in a good place for himself, even he can admit this at times, but will bring up relationship issues as though I'm the only one responsible for bridging the gap. The response I give for this is that I'm regaining and rebuilding myself as an individual at present. He needs to do the same. Become the best person he can be, and when we're both in better places, we see how we mesh. And it's true, as the only way it's going to improve is if he actually gets better and begins to do some of the heavy lifting; taking responsibility for things he's done to damage relationships, and consistently behaving in ways that are becoming of a healthy adult.

Unfortunately, like yours, it seems he may be in a place where he's actually unable to do that, and who knows if he'll ever find that place? Whether neurological damage, depression, some other physical illness, or personality disorder, it's beyond my control to make it what it needs to be on his end.

If he isn't able to work on himself in a meaningful way, this is where you have to figure out how to best care for yourself and make decisions that make the most sense for you- whether staying put or not — and it's important to remember that you have a right to change your mind about what you're doing at any time.

like if we have a big event or a trip planned always the day before he'll be like "I'm not going" but not in a serious way and he never follows through. I don't know what that is about but I am guessing it has something to do with his parents, like much of everything else.

It's really eerie that you wrote this because dh and I recently talked about this exact thing. Dh's mother (who acts very chaotically borderline) does this all the time. She absolutely freaks out about going anywhere, and puts those around her through the wringer for a day or two before the event. Then at the last minute, she pulls it together and is fine. Recently, on the day dh got his test results and was a bit depressed, but agreeable, he talked about feeling the same way and not understanding why. He hasn't acted out the same way she does, but he suddenly seems to be able to relate to that particular behavior, and was trying to understand why. (For the record, he's more likely to do something PA, or downright thoughtless, after we're already on the trip)

at what point does that stop excusing the behavior? Does it ever? Is it always his parents were emotionally stunted/abusive and so is he and he can do whatever he wants because of that and it is never his fault?

That doesn't ever excuse the behavior. He's an adult. What he went through is not his fault, but at this point, the aftermath is his responsibility. No matter what he went through, it doesn't give him a license to mistreat the people around him, or to behave like a child, or to skip out on responsibilities. That's the purpose of boundaries on our part- to make it clear that those certain behaviors aren't ones that we'll allow to affect us.

Here's an example that comes to mind, it may have already been posted on this thread, but will put it up again, because it might be relevant: the last few years, dh would have epic meltdowns every few months, shut himself in the bedroom, and go to bed for the day. They were often because of very minimal things. Early on, I'd try to reason with him, cajole him into a better place so we might all get on with our day in a positive way as a family. One of the last times he did it, DD said with disgust, "if he wants to have a tantrum like a toddler, let him have a timeout like a toddler." We ignored him for the rest of the day and let him stay locked in the room without attention. He hasn't done it again since. After that, it looks like the tantrums were just for the sake of control and attention. That's not to say he won't try again at some point, but… if he resorts to childish behaviors, you can treat them very much the same way you would with a kid- ignore the bad, reinforce the good.

Maybe he honestly can't process things like a typical person, or control his impulses or emotions, but you can insulate yourself (and the kids) from it and decide how much you want to let it affect you- and he can decide if your price is too high. If it is, he will adjust. Human beings will do what works for them to get the results they want. If the desired results aren't forthcoming, they generally won't do that particular thing. Whether he does it consciously, or with any real awareness, might not matter as much as you think.

Well this one got long. Lots to say, I suppose.

Here's a hug for you. Hope you are doing okay

Oh totally, definitely not a club I was wanting to belong to at all. And, it is so funny you bring up that statistic because I saw a video recently that was talking about the same thing, it is crazy to think about that even taking away over half of the marriages that end in divorce essentially so many more are not "happy". Pretty crazy stuff.

My therapist is very good at giving me ideas to bring up in our couples therapy. She suggested an artful way I bring up that my husband needs to increase his depression meds, especially because the couple's therapist we see is a psychiatrist. So I followed her advice exactly and it worked really well. My H doesn't like to directly tell me how much meds he is on and he doesn't want to increase them. Turns out the dose he is on is so low its like he is taking nothing. He did say in front of the couple's therapist that he would talk to his psychiatrist about increasing it but he told me that he doesn't think depression meds work and there are apparently studies that say they are no better than a placebo so I don't know. I don't really believe that they don't work and he is still so depressed so I hope he increases his meds. Actually after our couples session he told me that he will never actually do anything to leave our situation so it is really up to me "how long I can take this" because he doesn't see anything changing absent some huge change in circumstances (i.e. money) but will never do anything to leave. Obviously, there is so much wrong with that statement. It is really crazy to hear someone tell you they are miserable but plan on doing nothing to help themselves.

When you have these conversations about him becoming the best person he can be, does your H express any willingness to work on himself? We talk in counseling and among ourselves about my H even finding a hobby he likes or anything to make him happy and he's just like "I can't do it". Its definitely hard for me to relate to that. The therapist turned to me this time and was like "I bet you are really sick of this" and she is 100% correct.


That is so interesting how you have a similar experience with your DH and his mother and these last minute events and leaving. I wonder what that's about? I do think the advice on reinforcing the good and ignoring the bad is a good idea. I am going to try and work on that. My therapist suggested my husband might also be on the autism spectrum (our oldest kid has high functioning autism) and honestly I wonder if she is right. I've learned a lot about HFA through my experience with my son and it would explain a lot. Of course, my H doesn't think he is but I am starting to really think that might be the case.


I am hanging in there. I will say now that I realize him leaving is such an empty threat, it has helped me a lot. Not that it improves the situation but it makes it so I'm not acting scared and I can take control back, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I hope you are having a good week and thank you for your reply and advice as always. It is so helpful for me, I wish we didn't have the situation in common for both of us, but since we do I take a lot of comfort in knowing I am not alone and hearing your advice.