where to go from here

Hey again.

Again, that's really good that the counselor wasn't terrible. Your hesitation is completely understandable, not knowing what to expect, but it sounds like she was relatively objective and fair- all things considered.

Your personal counselor sounds like she's good too.

It's nice of you to give him some benefit of the doubt and see that he may become emotionally overwhelmed and say things he doesn't mean. That's a fact for some people with mental health/personality disorders. At the same time though, they still have to take responsibility for their actions and words, because they are technically adults. It may be helpful if you are able to see his limitations though. For me, this often looks like not over-engaging with dh if he's acting in emotional and baiting ways (immaturity). I see the uncontrolled child and separate from it for everyone's sake. Sometimes you alone have to be the adult in the room…

Actions can definitely speak louder than words. It might also help to make notes in a journal, if you don't already. That way you won't forget what happened as one thing morphs into another.

I respect your not wanting to pursue a divorce at present. Your situation is unique to you. As I've said before, my situation is a lot more complex than what's been posted on the forums. There are many, many reasons why I'm still where I am. But at the same time, you can start rebuilding your sense of self, and deciding what boundaries you need for yourself while you're still in the situation. If he's going to do something that makes the relationship lopsided and uncomfortable, you can decide for yourself what you need to balance it out and make it comfortable for you.

How is that to try and figure out how it would be to live together, but separately with your spouse? Have you come up with concrete ideas of how to navigate that? I can only send hugs, as it's difficult to imagine how you manage that sort of thing.

It sounds like yours may put his needs ahead of the childrens', which mine also does, and is hard for me to understand. Like, one of your main jobs at this point is to parent your children and set the good example, so sometimes you need to backburner yourself- mine can't do that for her sake, never could very effectively. It was surprising, as before she was born, I couldn't have imagined him being so self focused at the expense of his child

Would leaving for a week actually be realistic for you? It wouldn't be for me. Don't feel bad if you can't physically leave for even a short time, this is again that individual life thing that others may not fully understand.

No idea what's going on with my dh. It looks a little like cycles of bipolar, with predictable highs in late winter and summer, and a bad depression in the spring. Other times of the year are predictable too, but not quite as extreme. The counselor and psychiatrist asked him if he had trouble sleeping and he said no, so they automatically ruled out bipolar or cyclothymia, and didn't ask any more questions about the behaviors in question . So far, this year hasn't been as bad as last year, probably because his physical health isn't quite as good right now, and last year he was on antidepressants that escalated the hypomania. But the doctors tell me to mind my own business and not try to find problems with him, so that's all I can do right now…

Hope that you have a peaceful weekend. Hoping the same for myself…. Dh finally told me the other day that he's still waiting on his test results, so he's undoubtedly stressed about that.

Thinking of you and hope it's going okay.

Thanks for checking in. I am definitely struggling today. I find that the day(s) after therapy are really difficult for me, it is like you let the floodgates out and then it is hard to cope with what was unleashed. As for our couples therapy, there are a few things she said that sort of bothered me. Based on my experience with two different couples therapists, they tend to favor my husband. And, maybe that is some technique where they feel he needs the most help so they want to be on his side? But, she said a few things one directly questioning me that I felt were a little harsh. Although, could be what I need, but said nothing of the sort to him. I do really like my personal counselor and she is very caring which is definitely what I need right now.


I actually do journal every few days, I have always found when I am going through a hard time that it is very helpful to me to get my thoughts on paper, it helps me also to organize how I think. I also keep a running list in my phone of notes to discuss with my therapist each week so I don't forget. I think apart from my husband's behavior, I struggle a lot with being able to cope with how I ended up where I am and how I don't have much control over my situation. Even three months ago, when I know my H was going through a struggle, I would have told anyone with 100% certainty that no matter what we would get through anything together. That was my entire world view and to go from that to this is a crazy shift for me that I can't get my head around. This is also part of why it is hard for me/us to live together and/or separate and have boundaries. He (like I would wager many men) has no idea how much I do for him, and I don't even mean that in a negative way, just that there are things I do without thinking. I am trying to stop doing them as best I can but it is SO HARD!


He totally puts his own needs ahead of our children. In some ways I used to admire it because it doesn't make him feel guilty the way it does when I do anything for myself. I am with you, I also never would have imagined it before we had kids and honestly I never would have imagined it even five years ago. He used to be such a wonderful and involved father and slowly I think he has given up. In a way, I do understand where he is coming from based on his upbringing that he felt like he never got a say in anything and just floated along. I just disagree with the fact that our marriage, our family and our life have to be a necessary sacrifice of that. But, I believe people can control a lot and play a big part in how they feel and he feels like a lost victim, so that is why we disagree.


About your DH, that is interesting that they automatically rule out bipolar if he doesn't have trouble sleeping. I am glad he told shared with you that he is still waiting on the test results and maybe that is causing extra stress that will be at least temporarily abated once he finds out. I sure hope so for your sake? Thanks for being on this bumpy ride with me. I hope that you have a wonderful and relaxing weekend!

Hugs for you

I'm so sorry you are struggling, but that's understandable given the circumstances. Sometimes it feels like the stuff that starts coming out will never stop. Hope you might be feeling a little better today.

My dh has always been clever, fast on his feet, and a good talker (even mentally compromised he can summon it for an hour or so). That makes the idea of going to counseling with him terrifying. He has the ability to be quite manipulative, and doctors and counselors definitely favor him much of the time. Honestly, I also think there are still a lot of stereotypes that women are unstable and emotional, and men are the more rational ones- and that bias gets in the way for some of us.

Thank goodness you have your own counselor. She sounds like a good one.

He (like I would wager many men) has no idea how much I do for him, and I don't even mean that in a negative way, just that there are things I do without thinking. I am trying to stop doing them as best I can but it is SO HARD!

Oh yeah, those are us who are caretakers give without thinking too much about it, and our counterparts take like they are entitled to it, without much appreciation. I guess that's why we have to be the ones to see the lopsidedness and fix it for our own sake. Thing for me is that I'm a giver, don't mind being a giver, but also need to get some of that in return. When it's all one sided… well, you know!

Looking back before the huge shift in your DH's demeanor, do you see some red flags that go back further?

With mine, I can look back and see a lot of subtle covert and PA behaviors that look like they might have given way to bigger, more overt behaviors as time went on. There's a book titled "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" that's really good at explaining how dysfunctional, abusive relationships escalate over time. It was eye opening, especially realizing that a lot of my DH's confusing behaviors were really about his need for control. While I was trying to be cohesive and thinking we were working on getting on the same page, he actually wasn't. He was on a page all his own that benefited him and him alone, and kept him in a power position.

Your dh sounds like mine in that he externalizes so much blame. In his mind, most of his problems are rooted outside of himself and he doesn't take responsibility. The world happens to him… If you try to reason with the victim mindset, they just think they're being victimized more by your unreasonable assessment of their shortcomings

My dh got his test results back yesterday and they turned up very little aside from some relatively routine stomach troubles. That should be good news, but he's really upset. He is trying to use the stomach problem to explain away all of his issues for the past few years. I may have mentioned here before that he comes from a family that stigmatizes mental health issues, so that doesn't help him in any way. Talking to him last night was sad because he was in a frame of mind where he could admit being aware of his cognitive issues- that he can't think fast or focus like he used to. So right now I'm back in that place of wondering if it's neurological, psychological, or personality. Or all 3.

It's a sucky ride. I'm sorry you're in this boat too.

Hope you are able to enjoy some of today - I know it's hard sometimes. The longer this has gone on with dh, the better I've gotten at accepting the weirdness and working around it to not let it drag me down so much.

Do you do a lot of activities with your kids? My DD loves to do arts and crafts type things and play games. We do a lot of those things to try and stay sane.

I totally agree with you about the stereotypes and how (even female) therapists react to them. Also, my H is extremely well spoken and can articulate his points very well. I also think there's something to the fact that my H has been in talk therapy off and on for his entire adult life so he has a lot more experience eloquently talking through his feelings. All I do is cry, especially these days. The other hard thing about couples therapy for us as a couple right now is that my H is a horrible rule follower, so whenever (even in the past) couples therapists have given us "rules" or a "goal", he is not into it. Like us living our lives more separately now has not gone very much according to plan and he is not going to be the one to do it as it will mostly make his life harder, not mine. Totally about being one-sided, and right now it is mostly for me too.

That is a good question about red flags prior. It is hard for me to say. My H has always had issues, like I said, but I guess to some extent I never let them bother me until he completely checked out of our relationship and all emotion for anyone or anything. Yesterday, two of our kids were occupied and only one was at home with us and my son who was home with us hurt himself (he's perfectly fine now) and we ended up having to take him to get stitches. And, the whole time H was on his phone and my son was begging him to pay attention to him, it was really sad. I can't make him check back in though...that is why I have on my list for my therapist this week to make my therapy about MYSELF.


Thank you for putting that into words re: externalizing blame. that is exactly what it is. I do think that philosophy can influence so much and it is a really powerless position to be in to think life just happens to you and you have no control over anything or how you react. I wish for my H that he could get past that somehow.


That is so complicated re: the medical issues and so hard when the family of origin stigmatizes mental health issues. It is so hard to figure out the confluence of medical, psychological or just personality and how they all interact. I hope that he can try and figure some of it out if only to get to a solution that can help you both!

I had a decent weekend, we had a preplanned family outing that was halfway decent as between my H and I, and the kids had a great time so that was good. Pretty soon school will be started and I will be inundated with sports and activities, which definitely keeps me busy.


It is funny how this type of thing goes. Some days I just feel so sad, like the world as I know it is ending and some days I feel like everything will be okay. I am trying so hard to focus on actions and not words and that is helping me a lot.

I hope you have a good start to the week, I actually like Mondays somewhat because I have meetings and work to distract me!

(((Hugs)))

I'm so sorry if the joint counseling sessions don't feel as cohesive and helpful as you wished. In some weird way, it's almost like he has an advantage and uses it . Wonder what the counselor sees? It seems like maybe it's not accurate to your experience? Sad that it seems to favor him and not serve you quite as well.

The limitation with my dh, that really showed during counseling, was his inability to be accountable and take responsibility. He's so good at externalizing, twisting facts, and blame shifting, that he does it automatically at this point. It's probably like breathing for him. No matter the situation, he generally won't stop until someone else is holding the blame bag. The counselor seems to give him the benefit of the doubt, which just empowers him more. Even DD has noted that his counselor seems to do more harm than good at times, and she probably means well, but....

During that session I joined him, the counselor gave us "homework", and of course he didn't do anything in regard to it, so your situation sounds familiar. No idea what he told her about it when he went back. Don't care. But, I totally get where you are coming from, that he doesn't make the effort that's been asked of him . He readily agreed to it in front of the counselor, however. Guess that's all back to saying the right things, and doing nothing.

My H has always had issues, like I said, but I guess to some extent I never let them bother me until he completely checked out of our relationship and all emotion for anyone or anything.

Yes! I could say the exact same thing. The good parts of him outweighed the bad parts for a long time. I'm pretty easy going, so let lots of "little" things slide (heck, I'm not perfect either). Then it was like it all just came apart at the seams all at once.

Oh gosh, I'm sorry that your son got hurt. Hope he's feeling okay! And so sad that his dad was checked out when your son would obviously like him to be present and empathetic. Those kinds of experiences are a big deal for kids!

It's funny that you mention the phone, because it seems like dh getting a smart phone a few years back was a factor in the beginning of the end. What's on his phone is apparently way more interesting than DD or myself 95% of the time. Sometimes it's like his phone is an alternate reality where he'd much, much rather be. . What did he do before he had the phone? He had no choice but to be more present in the here and now, and to engage/pay attention to what was actually going on around him. He seemed much less depressed before the phone. It's an addiction of sorts.

Yeah, definitely take care of yourself, and work on meeting your own needs. Clearly he's not going to do much for you, at least not at this point. No matter what ends up happening with your dh, there's no downside to improving the way you take care of yourself, love yourself, and to just generally get better and stronger everyday.

You're also right that it's quite a rollercoaster. There's appeal to just getting off of it completely, but it's not always realistic, or immediately attainable. I, too, have days when I don't know how I'll make it to the end of the day, and then days when I'm relaxed and honestly don't care what happens.

Glad your kids had a nice outing. Good memories for them, hopefully.

My DD is a little older and doesn't enjoy spending time with dh anymore, because she's very aware that he's not (or maybe can't be) interested in her as a person. He'll mostly only interact with her when there's something in it for him. It's not meaningful. The selfishness and one-sidedness is very obvious to her.

Hope you're doing okay this week.

Hi, I thought I would check in since I am fresh off of another couples counseling session yesterday. You are totally right on with the advantage he has during these counseling sessions. I do think some of it has to do with the way he approached this counselor and his stated goal of counseling, i.e. how do we separate vs. my stated goal. They are basically at odds but since mine favors more of the status quo to some extent I think she ends up dealing with him and his issues. This counselor is not my favorite as she began yesterday's session with how what initially attracts you to someone can end up driving you crazy about them which was completely off topic and not helpful. However, I will say, she very much challenged him on his idea that some phantom/new sexual connection will fix him or any of his problems. She said if we do separate it should not be with the goal of seeing other people, but instead for him to focus on what he feels like he never had a chance to do which is have any say in his life. On the one hand, I do get that. On the other hand, practically speaking, adults have responsibilities. He has almost come around to the idea that this "sexual connection" won't fix him, but he focuses on it because it could be a rather short term and easy fix to give him direction. He even admits it is not a good idea. So, that is a good thing. The bad thing is that he has all this angst/crisis regarding that he doesn't know what he likes, he doesn't feel like he can make anything of himself in his career and he is numb to caring about me or his kids and that is a problem that he simply does not have the wherewithal to fix right now. He says he feels shame and embarrassed like he is failing me and our family so he just wants to leave. I think in one sense it is helpful for me to understand this better, but this is a "him" problem, not a "me" problem, you know? So, that limits what I can do. My therapist has been telling me a saying, the "three C's" which is if you didn't cause it you can't change it or control it. That is very much what is going on here.


I was just thinking last night how much your advice has helped me, especially last night. My H and I were discussing his crisis and also some issues between his father and my oldest son (admittedly a very emotionally charged issue) and I inadvertently said something that pushed one of his childhood emotional buttons and he started getting angry and crossing boundaries into behavior that makes me uncomfortable, i.e. raised voices, cussing, etc. With my therapist I am really working on calling out that behavior as it happens and shutting it down. And, his first reaction when I did call it out was, "I just need to leave". So, knowing what you have said about actions speaking louder than words, I called him on it and I said, if that is what you feel like you need to do, then you should do it. Well, he had no idea what to do with that and it was really empowering for me. He ended up apologizing and I felt good about setting a boundary but even better about being able to recognize in the moment that what he is saying is not what is going to happen. So I am so grateful for your advice on that measure. It is serving me well and helping me understand the situation much better.

It is a difficult position to be in where your husband is having this crisis and only they can fix it. While our marriage is/wasn't perfect, this crisis is all about him.


I hope that you are having a good weekend. The perspective about therapy is interesting isn't it? I wonder myself how beneficial therapy is long term if the stated goal isn't to teach the person how to help themselves, you know? At some point your issues have to become your own to control and not the fault or in the hands of others. I'm sorry to hear about your DD and your DH, it is so hard to watch that isn't it? When my H makes what I think are glaring mistakes with the kids I end up coming in and trying to clean up and it is just no way to be, is it!

Anyways, thanks for always listening and your insightful tips, I have learned so much from you!

I'm so glad if I've helped you some, you've helped me a great deal too. This week has been especially rough (end of summer always tends to be tough for a couple of reasons). Coming here and reading your posts helped me get recentered in a way that I desperately needed right now.

Wow, it sounds like a lot went down in counseling this past week for you. I hope you are feeling settled after having to process all that . What you said about how he approaches the counselor looking for guidance for what he wants, versus how you want to repair what's already there, is insightful. There is perceived power in seeking change, isn't there? It does seem like counselors tend to gravitate toward the change dynamic.

Those three C's - those are good to remember. Codependents often say "didn't cause it, can't cure it." The third C is important too!

ITA with you about having responsibilities and that it's not always realistic to set them aside. Guessing that thought process is not particularly helpful to you, since you'll be the one who's forced to pick up the slack. At least that's how it would work around here.

That's also good that the counselor seems to be challenging his want for sexual relationships outside of the marriage, rather than validating it on some level. She's right in those assessments. It seems like those relationships might be another external thing he's looking towards? All problems and solutions are outside of himself. And, yeah, what good will that do if he has no idea who he is? It's just a feel good, temporary band aid.

You hit on something very important- maybe it came up here before- about addressing issues in the moment. It sounds like you did a great job catching the manipulative threat, and calling him out on it. Where I made a lot of mistakes early on was missing the moment and then trying to go back and address it a couple hours later. If you can't catch it, and correct the course in the moment, don't try to bring it up later. With a spouse who's PA, they love the idea that they've been stuck in your head and owning your thoughts since the conversation. It becomes positive reinforcement for them. It doesn't sound like that's something you do, but thought it might be worth mentioning.

When he makes those threats now, and you call him out, do they just feel like manipulative attempts now? Somehow smaller than they were before? Of course it's always scary that they could go ahead and call your bluff in return, but unfortunately that may be a chance you have to take to stand up for yourself.

It is very sad for the kids. Sometimes dh will become angry or upset about DD not wanting to do something with him, and he can't seem to understand why. Relationships with our kids are investments that take time, not something you get on demand like from a vending machine.

When she was younger, I did run interference a little more, because it can be confusing for younger kids- but once she was old enough to understand, I stepped back and let him own more of it. That's a difficult balance that you have to figure out for your kids' sake. Sometimes I'd use a more compassionate explanation that still puts the responsibility on him- like maybe telling her 'dad isn't in a good place right now,' or 'dad seems overwhelmed, let's give him some space to figure it out.' Not demeaning, but not candy coating either, sort of basic and factual.

Over the weekend, mine was withdrawn and obviously in a bad place. He left on travel, so there may have been some anxiety he didn't want to admit to- maybe even to himself. He was stonewalling, stuck in his head and phone, doing little passive aggressive things. It's almost like a kid who doesn't know how to deal with, or express, feelings and thoughts. As for me, I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I try to talk to him, he gets agro, denies problems, and turns it around on me. If I don't approach him, I'm cold and heartless. No win. Codependency work has taught me to just tell him that I'm here for him if he needs anything, and then remove myself. Back to the ball in his court. But without him being able to take responsibility for his actions, needs, and half of the marriage, it's not productive. At this point, he's not so much a husband and partner as he is an unwell (and often not very nice) friend that I look after.

Anyhow, thank you for also sharing your experiences and helping me to sort and balance my thoughts. There's a lot of comfort and strength in just remembering that I'm not alone.

I'm so sorry it has been a rough week for you, I am glad you are hanging in there and our discourse is helping at least a little bit.

Yes, I totally feel like I have a new understanding of what is going on, although I am not sure it really changes anything except my thoughts and mental process. I do find that my H can be a bit more open on the days we have counseling and less like what I call his "zombie" mode where he is so disconnected. I did share with him that I think the therapist is a little biased but I told him I would reserve judgment for another session or two because he said if I really feel that way we should find another one. I plan on talking with my therapist about this later today but I sort of don't know where to go from here...if my H won't do anything to improve his life or feel more satisfied (or is he even capable of doing so at this point?) what can I do or should I do? I feel sort of stuck in that way but I will admit the utter panic I felt a month ago has settled so I do appreciate that. The fact that he admitted what he did about this "new sexual connection" and it just being some proxy for him to feel like a man and take charge of his life is also really helpful for me just because I knew it couldn't be right that the whole thing was only about that. However, it is still really difficult for me to hear things from him like he doesn't know why he married me or did he ever love me and things like that.


In any event, I do agree with you about the importance of catching the PA behavior in the moment or not at all. My therapist also suggested I call out the behavior at the time it occurs and make a point of that and I do think it has been helpful for me. I don't think it has improved my H's actions towards me that much but at this point it feels like that is asking a lot. I do hope to broach this issue in our couples therapy on Friday because I would like for him to take responsibility for his actions and stop being such a jerk, although I may prefer the snide comments to numb detachment. You ask a really good question about whether the threats seem like manipulation...I really can't tell. I think by nature empty threats are manipulative but it doesn't feel like to me he does it on purpose, it feels like to me he has such issues dealing with emotions and his feelings as a failure that when he makes mistakes he can't deal with it and just wants to leave. He has been that way forever, like if we have a big event or a trip planned always the day before he'll be like "I'm not going" but not in a serious way and he never follows through. I don't know what that is about but I am guessing it has something to do with his parents, like much of everything else.

That is very helpful tips about the kids. My kids tend to come to me with questions for their father so I always try to re-direct them to him. But, they will always ask me "is Daddy feeling okay" because they notice the detachment. I do suppose when they are older they will have to judge for themselves like you are saying. I like the idea of "dad seems overwhelmed" and lets give him some space.


The behavior you are describing about a child who can't express their feelings sounds so familiar. The thing that I struggle with and I'm not sure if you have too, is I wonder at what point my H has to take control of the deficits he had during childhood and overcome them. It is really hard for me because while my parents certainly were not perfect (and of course none are) I did not grow up with major issues from them and I knew/know that they love me unconditionally. Because of that, I know I can't ever really understand what my H is going through. However, back to my original question, at what point does that stop excusing the behavior? Does it ever? Is it always his parents were emotionally stunted/abusive and so is he and he can do whatever he wants because of that and it is never his fault? I struggle hard with that especially because of the external v. internal control we've previously discussed.


It sounds like you have a really good system down to tell your H that you are there for him and then remove yourself. I know the feeling of it not being a partnership and more like an unwell friend who takes their anger out on you (an easy target) and then you take care of him. The unwell part is what makes this so hard. In the end, it is hard for me to predict what is going to happen but it is nice to come here and chat with you and know that I am not alone and to take in all the advice you have to offer. I hope you are enjoying your week and hopefully experiencing some peace and calm.

What a sad club to belong to, huh?

A few weeks ago, I saw a sad statistic about marriage that's not talked about much: it's not that 56% of marriages end in divorce, it's that 20% of the remaining marriages aren't happy, but stay together despite that- whether the reasons are financial, kids, health, cultural, etc. This is probably where I am currently, and trying to make sense of it. It's a shameful place to live. In a marriage, you're supposed to be happy, pretend that you're happy, or get out. You can't be honest or respected in that space between, and yet plenty of people are currently living in it and trying to figure out what to do.

Btw- willing to bet that the 24% of marriages that are happy long term would cite things like respect and maturity as cornerstones of their relationships. Maybe not even list love as a top priority.

I plan on talking with my therapist about this later today but I sort of don't know where to go from here...if my H won't do anything to improve his life or feel more satisfied (or is he even capable of doing so at this point?) what can I do or should I do?

Did your therapist have ideas for you?

If you're not in a place where you can or want to leave the marriage, then maybe the best answer is to just focus on yourself? The only thing you have control over is you. If your dh isn't upholding his end of the marriage, your time may be better spent improving and nurturing yourself. He may note if you're bettering yourself, and then start trying to gravitate back towards you too- even if it's only out of worry that you might leave him behind.

My dh is obviously not in a good place for himself, even he can admit this at times, but will bring up relationship issues as though I'm the only one responsible for bridging the gap. The response I give for this is that I'm regaining and rebuilding myself as an individual at present. He needs to do the same. Become the best person he can be, and when we're both in better places, we see how we mesh. And it's true, as the only way it's going to improve is if he actually gets better and begins to do some of the heavy lifting; taking responsibility for things he's done to damage relationships, and consistently behaving in ways that are becoming of a healthy adult.

Unfortunately, like yours, it seems he may be in a place where he's actually unable to do that, and who knows if he'll ever find that place? Whether neurological damage, depression, some other physical illness, or personality disorder, it's beyond my control to make it what it needs to be on his end.

If he isn't able to work on himself in a meaningful way, this is where you have to figure out how to best care for yourself and make decisions that make the most sense for you- whether staying put or not — and it's important to remember that you have a right to change your mind about what you're doing at any time.

like if we have a big event or a trip planned always the day before he'll be like "I'm not going" but not in a serious way and he never follows through. I don't know what that is about but I am guessing it has something to do with his parents, like much of everything else.

It's really eerie that you wrote this because dh and I recently talked about this exact thing. Dh's mother (who acts very chaotically borderline) does this all the time. She absolutely freaks out about going anywhere, and puts those around her through the wringer for a day or two before the event. Then at the last minute, she pulls it together and is fine. Recently, on the day dh got his test results and was a bit depressed, but agreeable, he talked about feeling the same way and not understanding why. He hasn't acted out the same way she does, but he suddenly seems to be able to relate to that particular behavior, and was trying to understand why. (For the record, he's more likely to do something PA, or downright thoughtless, after we're already on the trip)

at what point does that stop excusing the behavior? Does it ever? Is it always his parents were emotionally stunted/abusive and so is he and he can do whatever he wants because of that and it is never his fault?

That doesn't ever excuse the behavior. He's an adult. What he went through is not his fault, but at this point, the aftermath is his responsibility. No matter what he went through, it doesn't give him a license to mistreat the people around him, or to behave like a child, or to skip out on responsibilities. That's the purpose of boundaries on our part- to make it clear that those certain behaviors aren't ones that we'll allow to affect us.

Here's an example that comes to mind, it may have already been posted on this thread, but will put it up again, because it might be relevant: the last few years, dh would have epic meltdowns every few months, shut himself in the bedroom, and go to bed for the day. They were often because of very minimal things. Early on, I'd try to reason with him, cajole him into a better place so we might all get on with our day in a positive way as a family. One of the last times he did it, DD said with disgust, "if he wants to have a tantrum like a toddler, let him have a timeout like a toddler." We ignored him for the rest of the day and let him stay locked in the room without attention. He hasn't done it again since. After that, it looks like the tantrums were just for the sake of control and attention. That's not to say he won't try again at some point, but… if he resorts to childish behaviors, you can treat them very much the same way you would with a kid- ignore the bad, reinforce the good.

Maybe he honestly can't process things like a typical person, or control his impulses or emotions, but you can insulate yourself (and the kids) from it and decide how much you want to let it affect you- and he can decide if your price is too high. If it is, he will adjust. Human beings will do what works for them to get the results they want. If the desired results aren't forthcoming, they generally won't do that particular thing. Whether he does it consciously, or with any real awareness, might not matter as much as you think.

Well this one got long. Lots to say, I suppose.

Here's a hug for you. Hope you are doing okay

Oh totally, definitely not a club I was wanting to belong to at all. And, it is so funny you bring up that statistic because I saw a video recently that was talking about the same thing, it is crazy to think about that even taking away over half of the marriages that end in divorce essentially so many more are not "happy". Pretty crazy stuff.

My therapist is very good at giving me ideas to bring up in our couples therapy. She suggested an artful way I bring up that my husband needs to increase his depression meds, especially because the couple's therapist we see is a psychiatrist. So I followed her advice exactly and it worked really well. My H doesn't like to directly tell me how much meds he is on and he doesn't want to increase them. Turns out the dose he is on is so low its like he is taking nothing. He did say in front of the couple's therapist that he would talk to his psychiatrist about increasing it but he told me that he doesn't think depression meds work and there are apparently studies that say they are no better than a placebo so I don't know. I don't really believe that they don't work and he is still so depressed so I hope he increases his meds. Actually after our couples session he told me that he will never actually do anything to leave our situation so it is really up to me "how long I can take this" because he doesn't see anything changing absent some huge change in circumstances (i.e. money) but will never do anything to leave. Obviously, there is so much wrong with that statement. It is really crazy to hear someone tell you they are miserable but plan on doing nothing to help themselves.

When you have these conversations about him becoming the best person he can be, does your H express any willingness to work on himself? We talk in counseling and among ourselves about my H even finding a hobby he likes or anything to make him happy and he's just like "I can't do it". Its definitely hard for me to relate to that. The therapist turned to me this time and was like "I bet you are really sick of this" and she is 100% correct.


That is so interesting how you have a similar experience with your DH and his mother and these last minute events and leaving. I wonder what that's about? I do think the advice on reinforcing the good and ignoring the bad is a good idea. I am going to try and work on that. My therapist suggested my husband might also be on the autism spectrum (our oldest kid has high functioning autism) and honestly I wonder if she is right. I've learned a lot about HFA through my experience with my son and it would explain a lot. Of course, my H doesn't think he is but I am starting to really think that might be the case.


I am hanging in there. I will say now that I realize him leaving is such an empty threat, it has helped me a lot. Not that it improves the situation but it makes it so I'm not acting scared and I can take control back, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I hope you are having a good week and thank you for your reply and advice as always. It is so helpful for me, I wish we didn't have the situation in common for both of us, but since we do I take a lot of comfort in knowing I am not alone and hearing your advice.

Hi again. It's always good to hear how you're doing. It's not an easy situation. You aren't alone.

I am hanging in there. I will say now that I realize him leaving is such an empty threat, it has helped me a lot. Not that it improves the situation but it makes it so I'm not acting scared and I can take control back, if that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense. That largely explains my situation too. Like once you come to the realization that it's mostly just manipulative bluster, you can breathe a little easier, take your time, and figure out what direction might make sense in the moment, without feeling panicky about what he may do. But yeah, it doesn't really improve it, though you might feel more empowered when it comes to enforcing boundaries.

Wishing you luck regarding the depression meds and getting him to adjust them. It's hard to say, I've heard the placebo argument, and others who say meds made all the difference.

When H had a breakdown last year, he agreed to try meds finally. They put him on one of those "nothing" doses too. When he hit his summer hypomania a couple months later (that the doctors don't think is real), it was next level weird. We watched him do things that were very uncharacteristic of him, so the meds definitely changed something in his brain. It was a relief when he went off them.

That's interesting about HFA. It seems like having your son on the spectrum would give you a lot of insight. At a point, it seems like there can be a crazy amount of crossover in symptoms, whether depression, autism, ADD, borderline, etc. It's probably fair to say they aren't neurotypical, whatever the cause.

When you have these conversations about him becoming the best person he can be, does your H express any willingness to work on himself?

Not really. It's more just a way of putting down a boundary with him. This is what I need, arguably what he needs, but what it mostly does is get him to back off from making unreasonable demands about what I should be doing for him and the relationship. It stops him from being able to pin all the blame on me, and puts out the expectation that he needs to start working towards meeting me in the middle.

The therapist turned to me this time and was like "I bet you are really sick of this" and she is 100% correct.

Wow. Did that feel as validating as it sounds? It's sad that he just doesn't have the motivation. Did he have any hobbies before, things that he no longer does? Something he could go back to?

Mine used to do a lot of different things, but he says he doesn't have the level of focus he needs to actually do, or enjoy, them anymore, which is sad and scary. He seems to take most of his energy and focus to work- which probably isn't the worst thing…

This past week I've been doing some reading on internet addiction, and it's been somewhat relatable. It's kind of a chicken and egg thing though- what caused what? Maybe what he does is escapism and the result, not the cause of his problems. At the moment, I do see him as being someone who needs the constant drip of feedback that you can get through a smartphone- whether texting or calling people, constantly checking informational pages, or watching YouTube videos. It's like he's in a loop and can't get out - within minutes of stopping, he's bored or needs distraction again, and requires the stimuli, and he's back in his phone. In the past, talking to him about his use has resulted in a lot of blame shifting and denial, which also feels a bit like addiction. There's probably not much I can, or should, do about it. It's his issue to choose to fix, or not. Or to live with the consequences.

My anxiety has continued to ease this week. DD is back in school and I'm getting quite a bit done, which feels good for the most part.

Hope you're feeling okay- hopefully calm and steady or something like it.

Here's a for you. Give your kids some extra hugs too :

Yes, for sure. And, really nothing has changed from week to week except that I understand what is going on a little bit better.


This week in our couples therapy and last week the psychiatrist talked a lot about my husband's rage inside, this is mostly about his parents and how he hasn't been allowed by them to grow up and be his own person.. So next week apparently she wants to try something physical for him, I am interested to see what it is. Last week I thought all his issues had stumped her which was sort of funny even though it wasn't. I will be interested to see what comes of that even though all the sessions are really about him and his issues.


He did used to be better about having hobbies. He is really into just being "stuck" right now and has resolved himself not to do anything. It is very tricky. I think it must be harder to force yourself to do absolutely nothing to help yourself rather than to do any tiny thing to change your situation. These men are so entrenched I think.

My kids have all gone back to school this week so it has been chaos and H is in and out of town so I am sort of appreciating the new rhythm of things and not having to concentrate on our poor relationship, if that makes sense.


I hope all is going well for you and you are staying cool. It is still unbearably hot where I am. I will check back in after our next therapy session with hopefully interesting news about how physically expressing rage goes for my H.

Hope your weekend was good

And also hope you are hanging in there okay.

Mine has also more or less stalled out as far as any meaningful change, but that's okay in some senses. As long as his behavior is relatively predictable, it allows the time and space to work on myself, you know? If he's causing drama and chaos, it can be a little harder to focus on my own needs and growth.

Do you have any idea what the counselor might have as a idea for your dh to do physically? Do you think she had any idea at the time she said it, or has to figure that out since his resistance seems to stump her too? Is the physical activity something to do in attept to combat the depression? I'm interested to hear what she thinks he should do, and if he'll actually do it.

You're right about the resistance and that it may be more work to be assinine than to do something productive. What do they get out of it? It's a very needy mindset, isn't it? All the more reason to not coddle their issues, lest they get too much positive feedback for being that way.

You've mentioned how he feels his parents didn't allow him to become the person he should have been- out of curiosity, what is his relationship with them like at this point? You may have said before, sorry if you did and I'm not recalling.

It may have been said already, but my DH's family is VERY unhealthily enmeshed. In recent years, as his problems have gotten worse, it seems like he's re-engaged with his family on their old level that he was used to. On one hand, he's very critical about a lot of things they do and how it affected his life, and on the other hand it's like he's much more comfortable with the old dysfunctional patterns, versus having healthier relationships/boundaries in this house with me and DD.

Then again, tbh, even in better times, he was never the kind of person who was introspective or might think in terms of self growth. Not seeming to evolve into more mature life stages can seem kind of sad.

It's somewhat the same around here when school starts. It's almost like having the routine of school and work and other seasonal obligations doesn't leave as much room for the drama and other problems to take hold. Being busy can be very good at times. Sometimes it seems like he won't start something, because he knows he won't have the opportunity to drag it on

Hope it's a good week for you!

Yes I am totally with you, as long as the behavior is predictable it allows the time and space to work on me, this situation and what I want. The chaos is really hard so now that I know that this isn't going to change soon, I am just in a much better position. So, we went in on Monday and she had one idea about his feet and this wooden pole because she says that as kids you learn to hold in emotions by curling up your feet which is so interesting because our whole relationship I have commented on my H's feet and how even if he's sitting on the couch they are curled up so there was definitely something to that. The other thing she did was more like what I had envisioned, him hitting pillows with a racket, getting the anger out. I think she has sort of figured this out, and she is also adapting to what HE needs because in the sessions there is really nothing to talk about in terms of his original stated purpose of "what does separating look like" because he won't do anything.


Again, it is really sad to me about his parents. His relationship with them now is very stilted, we see them and they see our kids but there is no direct communication and that is frowned upon. It is very unhealthy and much like literally everything else, my H won't do anything to change it. In fact he was relaying a story about his father (who is the active culprit in all of this, his mom was more like a bystander who let the issues occur without interceding) and just making excuses for his father. Still. Evan though he blames his father for everything. It is an interesting dynamic how all that works when parents don't let you grow up. My H also has OCD issues regarding his relationship with his parents, i.e. if he does certain things he thinks it means something bad will happen to them. So, there is that too. Sounds very similar to your H, critical but unwilling to change. A therapist my husband once saw who I spoke to compared this behavior to a child having a temper tantrum and when my H gives into his parents it is like giving the tantruming child candy. It just teaches them that the only way to get relief is to do what his parents want.

ALL of that to say, literally zero about anything in these sessions is about me. Sometimes, I feel like an outsider even being there. I really hope my H's business can take off a little and then maybe it will put him in a better mindset. I know, especially for men, so much can be tied to money and success. But at the same time, it is so hard for me to believe this all started with "I can only be happy again if I have sex with other people" and that was so far from what actually is going on it is almost laughable.


I know this growth can by done, my H's sister has in fact taken steps to put healthy boundaries in place and has been able to maintain a decent relationship with her parents during all of that.


I agree with school and routine. I am with you, the summer just seems like a hard time for everyone. For now I am staying put and trying to work on myself, put down boundaries when I am uncomfortable and just go from there. Not sure what else I could do unless I just wanted to leave, you know? On the one hand, I don't want to be stuck here, but on the other hand, I feel like right now I am not ready for change in terms of divorcing and that is the only change I can have at this point. Who knows. My H has been a tad better about being involved with the kids too and when he is in the mood he can be a lot more patient than me with homework issues, which happen a lot with my oldest.


So, I guess I am going to keep trucking along. Do you spend time with your inlaws and do they have a decent relationship with your DH? The relationship between my in-laws and my kids is a whole other topic for a different day but it is never dull, that is for sure.

It's good that you are feeling more in control of your situation. The downside, of course, is his willingness or unwillingness to do what he needs to do, but at least you can let him own that part while you focus on things within your control.

That's interesting about the foot curling. I'd never heard that, but can see how that would be a thing. Is he doing the rolling? What about the other thing? Has he been doing the pillow/ racket exercise? If he has done it, how has it been, and has it seemed to have any effect?

I've heard of "rage therapy" for people who are working through trauma and feel stuck by anger, but they usually have to be able to acknowledge the anger first? Is your H able to acknowledge the anger he feels? That's an issue for mine. He's obviously angry, but denies and covers it out of habit. He grew up in a household where only Mom was allowed to be angry (even to this day), so the rest can't have their real feelings, and have unhealthy ways of dealing with them.

My H's family dynamic might have been a little like your H's. His mother is very controlling and domineering (and openly abusive, but the family won't acknowledge it as such), and his father is very passive and just lets things happen. FIL has a bit of a victim mentality, cowing to MIL even when she's way out of line, and that's all the kids knew. There are virtually no boundaries in his FOO (family of origin). They bicker constantly, and up until recently, I didn't have a full concept of just how toxic they were behind closed doors. Until a few years ago, H seemed to be the one who rose above the dysfunction and pettiness.

Sometimes I think DD going through phases of childhood development triggered H's childhood trauma and set off the midlife events. But that still wouldn't be a valid excuse for things he's said and done.

My H has black-and-white thinking (splitting) that's common in cluster B's, as well as some other conditions. He can't see his parents as complex beings- both good and flawed at the same time, so justifies the abuse and horrible behaviors in order to believe that mom and dad are ultimately good- and therefore he is too. Psychologically speaking, he and his FOO are rather enmeshed.

Our relationship with his parents is difficult. When we do see them, he hides somewhere with his dad and I "babysit" his mother, which for short spans isn't a problem. A few years ago, FIL told a third party that he was boggled by how well I handle MIL and her shenanigans. The reality is that it's just good manners and boundaries, but that's a mystery to them. She will literally have full blown temper tantrums to get what she wants, and the rest of them panic to placate her- except me. The candy analogy you used is good, that's an apt way to put it. It's dawning on me in this very moment why I'm so often in the role of villain….

Ugh, I'm rattling on. Maybe some of that is relatable to you though?

It's great that through your counseling, the real root of the matter came to light, and it moved away from that place where he was convinced he needed to go be with others. There must be relief in that at least? As much as counseling doesn't always serve you, at least maybe you've been supported in that particular boundary?

The other day I was scrolling through YouTube and saw that Dr. Ramani had a video about how narcissists dominate in therapy sessions. I haven't watched it yet, but thought there might be some pertinent info in it regarding experiences like you and I have both had.

For now I am staying put and trying to work on myself, put down boundaries when I am uncomfortable and just go from there. Not sure what else I could do unless I just wanted to leave, you know? On the one hand, I don't want to be stuck here, but on the other hand, I feel like right now I am not ready for change in terms of divorcing and that is the only change I can have at this point. Who knows. My H has been a tad better about being involved with the kids too and when he is in the mood he can be a lot more patient than me with homework issues, which happen a lot with my oldest.

My life is largely cohabitating, self improvement, and wondering what the future looks like. The important thing to remember is that you can change your mind about direction at any time. For right now, where you are makes sense on some level. Life is subject to change. Whether he changes, you change, or both, things will shift at some point. You could change your mind tomorrow about what you are doing, or next year, or maybe never. We'll get where we're going eventually, and it will make sense as long as we're acting in healthy ways and taking care of ourselves, kwim?

I am kind of curious about the relationship between your kids and in-laws since you mentioned it. My MIL acts as though her grandchildren are possessions that should bend to her will and serve her. From the time DD was little, I had to carefully put down boundaries to make sure DD's best interests were protected. It wasn't always easy. Now that she's older, DD is pretty good at maintaining her own boundaries.

Hope that you're doing well and having a nice weekend.

He is definitely doing the rolling, not sure if it helps or not but I guess time will tell.

That’s so interesting about the parallel with the anger. My H also has trouble admitting his anger. He also actually I think has trouble feeling it. My H also grew up in a house where he was not allowed to feel his feelings, everything always had to be “okay” and to this day that is still the case. He’ll even cringe when I cry at a book or movie like it is so weird to express emotions that way.

We had couples therapy today and he mentioned his sister suggested he go to family therapy with his mom and dad (doubt he would actually go) and that his sister would join to support him. This actually I feel would be beneficial. I doubt it will happen but if it did maybe he would finally work through this stuff.

So with this couples therapist he was back to examining how this sexual connection with another person would save him and he wants to leave me, his kids, and his parents behind. That this new girl would be in her 20s (he’s 40 and I’m in my late 30s) and could abuse him or have borderline personality disorder but he wouldn’t care. First of all, this as always makes no sense. But I think the therapist is subtly drawing a parallel between him being “impotent” which is the word she used, with his father and finding that “potency” that way. The therapist is pretty blunt and at one point she said something to him like maybe he just “needs to get laid” and she sort of lost me with that, although she has been provocative with him to elicit a response. Needless to say, I did not like this. Then, in the next moment it was like hey let’s talk about what you (me) want from this relationship. My H has punished me for responses before when I’m like how am I supposed to answer this while I’m in this traumatic situation, so I made some garbage up but like I find it really really unfair to have to analyze my relationship and wants and needs in the context of him reiterating he has no interest in working on our relationship and her asking him what he wants for this sexual connection and the get laid comment.

At the time, I felt like a non-reaction to this served me better but I’m not sure. I feel like it’s pretty disrespectful to me but then again my H likes to be contrary and I’ve cried to him so much about stuff like this so maybe acting nonchalant is better. It just felt and feels like this therapist is for him, you know?

So in terms of the relationship between my in laws and kids, my FIL has co-opted my oldest as his own, he hates my middle child who is super emotional and probably emotionally smart enough at 7 to see through his garbage and my five year old is still pretty young but since she’s a girl he can’t be bothered. And of course my MIL just stands by all passive. My in-laws are so emotionally limited.

Anyway, that is my update. Think I’m still processing everything that happened earlier today so thanks for being my sounding board, you really do offer me such insight and I’m so grateful!

I am so sorry. My mind is just boggled that the therapist was so insensitive and disrespectful to your feelings. Yeah, maybe she's trying to provoke something in him or get to a point, but it strikes me as unprofessional at best for her to subject you to that in the process. Just SMH here.

It really doesn't feel like marriage counseling Shouldn't marriage counseling be about the marriage? About finding unity and harmony? It almost seems like it's not marriage counseling, but more like some kind of tandem counseling session where he dominates. But it doesn't sound like he's working very hard to come towards the center and you, so where does it go?

That comment she made would have lost and bothered me as well. What could the point of that be? Again, does she realize that you're in the room???

Based on patterns, if this were my marriage, my suspicion would be that my H realized that over the last few weeks he's lost control of the narrative, and is doubling down on it by going back to the original issue that caused the stress and problems. Is it possible that he's resurrecting it to try to put himself back in the driver's seat?

Maybe your individual counselor might have some better ideas for you? Wow, my heart hurts for you.

My gut would be that non reaction serves you better too, but I also understand the reservations about that. If you show emotion, that can be power and control for him. OTOH if you don't react, then maybe you're afraid of giving off the vibe that you aren't very invested?

I'm slowly learning that even if I'm not openly emotional, I can still state my feelings clearly to make them known. You don't have to break down into tears in order to express how you're feeling, and to make a strong point. Unfortunately, I'm often caught off guard in situations like that and can't always organize thoughts in the moment . With practice, it gets easier though.

It does sound like there are some parallels between your H's family and mine, but that's probably not all that surprising. It seems like this was covered in the PA book, about how PA develops because open assertiveness and emotional displays aren't tolerated in the FOO. My in-laws are those old school "boys don't cry" type, and H only has brothers, and the brothers only have sons, so you can probably see the whole systemic dysfunction that could take hold here. But MIL will try to tell DD what she should and shouldn't feel- which just seems so weird to tell another person what's allowed to go on inside of them. MIL acts borderline, with emotions unpredictable and all over the place- so acceptable for her, but no one else. At times I feel so badly for the kid H had to be, but at the same time, I'm not here to pay the penance for it.

I'm so sorry this week went the way it did for you. Keep taking care of yourself and your kids and keep moving one day at a time. I'm glad if I can be here as some help and comfort. There have been some very lonely and confusing episodes in my life the last few years, so I get what it can feel like, and that there aren't always direct answers. There's so little education on the kinds of things we deal with that I have to imagine there are a whole lot of other people out there trying to make sense of something similar and figure out their own direction.

Hugs for you. I hope the coming week is better.

Thanks so much for your response, it along with talking this out with my best friend also really validated my reaction which I appreciate. In fact, I was telling my friend that I don't even really remember a lot of what happened because I blocked it out and she was telling me that it is a trauma response. When the therapist was talking to him about "let's explore this fantasy" I just went in my head to another place I remember telling myself just to start counting to ten or thinking of something else mostly so I halfway heard some of what he said and as for the rest I have blocked it out. I do think the therapist really brought it up, not him, but it is his choice in how to respond. It is interesting your thought about losing control of the narrative and I do agree. If I focus on the weeks before that, as I had shared with you, the therapy had become about working on my H, his past trauma, how that was shaping how he is now, his inner rage, inability to decide and the like. It is a whole lot easier to think he's going to go have sex with some random 20 year old that will make him feel like a man again and leave his whole life behind rather than working on himself and fixing what is there. So that does put things in perspective. And I get why that is easier especially when he feels like he is a failure. We are surrounded by a lot of wealth in our day-to-day lives that we don't have. One of our kids had a play date at our house this past weekend and he told me he was embarrassed to have the child over and his mother pick him up. And for the record it is not like we are going hungry, it is just we certainly do not have the sort of generational wealth a lot of our kids' friends have.


On the other hand, no this does not feel like couples counseling. My feelings are really irrelevant to her and my husband and are not really discussed other than an off-hand comment here or there. I find it insulting that I would be asked about what I want from my H in a relationship after having to sit through that and to be honest I am impressed I came up with anything. But, how can it be couples counseling when he states he has no interest in working on our marriage, but will do nothing to separate, so we are stuck in this awful holding pattern. In fact, over the weekend after he did take our younger two kids to a friends house and hang out with the dads that were there he went out with his recently divorced friend (or so he claimed because honestly how do I believe anything he says) and he stayed out until 3am with no word of anything to me which I also find completely disrespectful. But then, back in the day this would have elicited a big reaction from me calling him and wondering where he was so I consciously decided to have no reaction. It definitely feels like he is testing me but to what end? I need to speak to my therapist about this and unfortunately I don't see her again until next week.


When you are talking about feeling bad for the kid your H was but not paying the penance for it, you could be taking the words out of my own mouth. I do feel for what he had to go for but why should I be punished? This whole situation is just super difficult. Right now I am listening to my H (our home offices are across from each other) be so patient and understanding with one of his admittedly crazy business partners and it boggles the mind how I always get the worst of him. We are supposed to go back to this therapist on Thursday and now I am not sure if I will go and just be checked out or refuse to go or what. As always thanks so much for listening and I hope you are having a decent Monday!

You're in a tough spot. He's making it so hard for you . Don't let it be any harder than necessary.

Yeah, that does sound like you had a trauma response. I wonder if the therapist had any clue about how it was affecting you? Again SMH. Good for you for being able to come up with a response of some kind when prodded. I wish I could give you a hug in real life.

He's broken and you can't fix him. Only he can fix him, and who knows if he even has the ability or want at this point.

My personal experience over time has been that the more I tried to fix things, or tried to help him, the more resistant and the worse he became. Once I backed away and started focusing heavily on myself, he doesn't act out quite so much. It's like once my focus was off him, he got scared, you know? And maybe he should be scared about that divide. Maybe he's afraid that he's lost his power and will end up left behind at some point, or maybe he's just trying to get me back on some proverbial hook. Since I don't take bait anymore, and focus on adult behaviors and interactions, it doesn't matter. We can either interact liked adults, or I can detach mentally and emotionally and do my own thing.

This may have been said earlier in the thread, but I was told to not go to marriage counseling unless your SO has empathy and respect for you, and a willingness to work on the marriage. Who could blame you for choosing to not go back? It's not serving you. Perhaps there are other places where your time and energy could be better spent? If he shows no interest in working on the marriage at this point, why bother? In some ways, you ending up at these counseling sessions and getting the short end of the stick, could potentially be another place where he's exerting his control dynamic- just a thought though.

Something that I recalled the other day, was that at the end of the session I attended with dh, the counselor said to me, "Come back again. Or don't. I don't care." Which in retrospect seemed kind of snarky. I wonder what she thought about my not returning. If I'd gone back, she probably would have pegged me as a nagging, controlling codependent. By not going back, perhaps she just thinks I don't care about him or the marriage. Who knows, but it's an annoying place to feel cornered.

I feel for you about him talking to other people in much nicer ways. That's surprisingly common . We probably all do that to some extent- public versus private faces- but there's also this level of two-facedness that's really galling. This may be one of the places where my H differs slightly. He can only keep it together for a limited time- a bit like a dementia patient who's "show timing" for a doctor. Mine openly admits that he doesn't have the energy or focus to maintain acting "normal" for very long, so DD and I get dropped. And while I take things he says like that with a grain of salt (maybe it's just manipulation) it is one place his actions and words do seem to align. Part of the big "who knows?" In his case maybe it's depression, or maybe a bigger neurological problem, or ???? No matter the cause, it's still hurtful and painful. Just remember that it's not you, and it's not a referendum on who you are, it's an indicator of who he is and what's going on inside him.

And that staying out…. that's pretty unacceptable, and you're right, it's probably him testing. His broken child-self being defiant. My H does similar things, though not at night. He's notorious for having only a half day of work, saying he'll be home for lunch with me, but then going over and spending the afternoon at one of our friend's houses, without a word. Seriously, is he 12 years old? It caused problems initially, but now I just get on with my life, eat lunch with or without him, whatever…. He does it less the more he doesn't get a reaction. But with these "little hiccups" he's damaged the relationship in ways I don't think he can even comprehend.

There are times I swear he does that sort of thing because he's actively picking a fight to give his brain a dopamine hit or something. Either that or he's trying to recreate the dynamic with his mom where he only got attention when he did something wrong. Give him what he wants and it's just positive reinforcement, even though it's hard to believe that's what someone would want.

Anyhow, no great answers, but support for you as best as I can from way over here. No matter what, just do what's right for you on any given day, and let the chips fall where they may. I know that's easier said than done, but don't lose sight of your value as an individual, seperate from the relationship. Heck, focus on that…

I agree with everything you are saying. I am fresh off another weekly session which was not as traumatic as last time, thank goodness, but I have had to re-frame what is happening to get myself through it. I am now telling myself that these are counseling sessions for my H that I am attending with him. Most of them time, I would say other than the first session and an off hand question here or there, the therapist is not even asking me anything about what I want or need, only getting some observations from me about my H's life or to expound upon a comment I make about what my H says about him. If I do look at it that way, then it makes a whole lot more sense. My H revealed something during the session today that he had previously told me that is a horrific childhood experience involving his father and he has a memory of it but is not sure if it is true or not. The therapist got wrapped up in that, and rightly so, but she does think it is true and it does make sense. Basically her bottom line was that my H doesn't know how to experience or feel love because of all of his childhood trauma, except that he thinks he can get it in some deviant/sexual way. Luckily we didn't harp too much on that point today.

I don't know what that means for me honestly. On the way home my H asked me what I am getting out of this marriage right now and I was just sort of like I don't think that's a fair question because you have shut down our marriage. How could I be getting anything out of it? I asked him why he asked me that and basically he wanted company on that he's not really getting anything out of it but the point is he has made it that way and that is his choice. And, he can also chose to unstick himself from this situation in about a million different ways but instead he chooses to do nothing. The whole thing is just really sad and depressing but I do feel like I am at the point where I am very certain and more than ever that none of this is my fault. And my H can chose to leave or work on our marriage, but he wants to not make a choice instead. I do feel that unless he addresses these underlying issues nothing will change, so here we are.


So you are exactly right, I am going to continue focusing on myself, enjoying my kids, my friends and my hobbies. I am also going to focus on being non-reactive to anything my husband throws my way, since today was pretty traumatic for him, I am assuming he may act out soon. I am anxious to get to talk to my therapist next week as well.

I hope that you are having a wonderful week with calm family dynamics. As awful as it is that we are going through somewhat similar experiences, I am so grateful that you are hear to listen and give advice.