where to go from here

Hi again. It's always good to hear how you're doing. It's not an easy situation. You aren't alone.

I am hanging in there. I will say now that I realize him leaving is such an empty threat, it has helped me a lot. Not that it improves the situation but it makes it so I'm not acting scared and I can take control back, if that makes sense.

It makes perfect sense. That largely explains my situation too. Like once you come to the realization that it's mostly just manipulative bluster, you can breathe a little easier, take your time, and figure out what direction might make sense in the moment, without feeling panicky about what he may do. But yeah, it doesn't really improve it, though you might feel more empowered when it comes to enforcing boundaries.

Wishing you luck regarding the depression meds and getting him to adjust them. It's hard to say, I've heard the placebo argument, and others who say meds made all the difference.

When H had a breakdown last year, he agreed to try meds finally. They put him on one of those "nothing" doses too. When he hit his summer hypomania a couple months later (that the doctors don't think is real), it was next level weird. We watched him do things that were very uncharacteristic of him, so the meds definitely changed something in his brain. It was a relief when he went off them.

That's interesting about HFA. It seems like having your son on the spectrum would give you a lot of insight. At a point, it seems like there can be a crazy amount of crossover in symptoms, whether depression, autism, ADD, borderline, etc. It's probably fair to say they aren't neurotypical, whatever the cause.

When you have these conversations about him becoming the best person he can be, does your H express any willingness to work on himself?

Not really. It's more just a way of putting down a boundary with him. This is what I need, arguably what he needs, but what it mostly does is get him to back off from making unreasonable demands about what I should be doing for him and the relationship. It stops him from being able to pin all the blame on me, and puts out the expectation that he needs to start working towards meeting me in the middle.

The therapist turned to me this time and was like "I bet you are really sick of this" and she is 100% correct.

Wow. Did that feel as validating as it sounds? It's sad that he just doesn't have the motivation. Did he have any hobbies before, things that he no longer does? Something he could go back to?

Mine used to do a lot of different things, but he says he doesn't have the level of focus he needs to actually do, or enjoy, them anymore, which is sad and scary. He seems to take most of his energy and focus to work- which probably isn't the worst thing…

This past week I've been doing some reading on internet addiction, and it's been somewhat relatable. It's kind of a chicken and egg thing though- what caused what? Maybe what he does is escapism and the result, not the cause of his problems. At the moment, I do see him as being someone who needs the constant drip of feedback that you can get through a smartphone- whether texting or calling people, constantly checking informational pages, or watching YouTube videos. It's like he's in a loop and can't get out - within minutes of stopping, he's bored or needs distraction again, and requires the stimuli, and he's back in his phone. In the past, talking to him about his use has resulted in a lot of blame shifting and denial, which also feels a bit like addiction. There's probably not much I can, or should, do about it. It's his issue to choose to fix, or not. Or to live with the consequences.

My anxiety has continued to ease this week. DD is back in school and I'm getting quite a bit done, which feels good for the most part.

Hope you're feeling okay- hopefully calm and steady or something like it.

Here's a for you. Give your kids some extra hugs too :

Yes, for sure. And, really nothing has changed from week to week except that I understand what is going on a little bit better.


This week in our couples therapy and last week the psychiatrist talked a lot about my husband's rage inside, this is mostly about his parents and how he hasn't been allowed by them to grow up and be his own person.. So next week apparently she wants to try something physical for him, I am interested to see what it is. Last week I thought all his issues had stumped her which was sort of funny even though it wasn't. I will be interested to see what comes of that even though all the sessions are really about him and his issues.


He did used to be better about having hobbies. He is really into just being "stuck" right now and has resolved himself not to do anything. It is very tricky. I think it must be harder to force yourself to do absolutely nothing to help yourself rather than to do any tiny thing to change your situation. These men are so entrenched I think.

My kids have all gone back to school this week so it has been chaos and H is in and out of town so I am sort of appreciating the new rhythm of things and not having to concentrate on our poor relationship, if that makes sense.


I hope all is going well for you and you are staying cool. It is still unbearably hot where I am. I will check back in after our next therapy session with hopefully interesting news about how physically expressing rage goes for my H.

Hope your weekend was good

And also hope you are hanging in there okay.

Mine has also more or less stalled out as far as any meaningful change, but that's okay in some senses. As long as his behavior is relatively predictable, it allows the time and space to work on myself, you know? If he's causing drama and chaos, it can be a little harder to focus on my own needs and growth.

Do you have any idea what the counselor might have as a idea for your dh to do physically? Do you think she had any idea at the time she said it, or has to figure that out since his resistance seems to stump her too? Is the physical activity something to do in attept to combat the depression? I'm interested to hear what she thinks he should do, and if he'll actually do it.

You're right about the resistance and that it may be more work to be assinine than to do something productive. What do they get out of it? It's a very needy mindset, isn't it? All the more reason to not coddle their issues, lest they get too much positive feedback for being that way.

You've mentioned how he feels his parents didn't allow him to become the person he should have been- out of curiosity, what is his relationship with them like at this point? You may have said before, sorry if you did and I'm not recalling.

It may have been said already, but my DH's family is VERY unhealthily enmeshed. In recent years, as his problems have gotten worse, it seems like he's re-engaged with his family on their old level that he was used to. On one hand, he's very critical about a lot of things they do and how it affected his life, and on the other hand it's like he's much more comfortable with the old dysfunctional patterns, versus having healthier relationships/boundaries in this house with me and DD.

Then again, tbh, even in better times, he was never the kind of person who was introspective or might think in terms of self growth. Not seeming to evolve into more mature life stages can seem kind of sad.

It's somewhat the same around here when school starts. It's almost like having the routine of school and work and other seasonal obligations doesn't leave as much room for the drama and other problems to take hold. Being busy can be very good at times. Sometimes it seems like he won't start something, because he knows he won't have the opportunity to drag it on

Hope it's a good week for you!

Yes I am totally with you, as long as the behavior is predictable it allows the time and space to work on me, this situation and what I want. The chaos is really hard so now that I know that this isn't going to change soon, I am just in a much better position. So, we went in on Monday and she had one idea about his feet and this wooden pole because she says that as kids you learn to hold in emotions by curling up your feet which is so interesting because our whole relationship I have commented on my H's feet and how even if he's sitting on the couch they are curled up so there was definitely something to that. The other thing she did was more like what I had envisioned, him hitting pillows with a racket, getting the anger out. I think she has sort of figured this out, and she is also adapting to what HE needs because in the sessions there is really nothing to talk about in terms of his original stated purpose of "what does separating look like" because he won't do anything.


Again, it is really sad to me about his parents. His relationship with them now is very stilted, we see them and they see our kids but there is no direct communication and that is frowned upon. It is very unhealthy and much like literally everything else, my H won't do anything to change it. In fact he was relaying a story about his father (who is the active culprit in all of this, his mom was more like a bystander who let the issues occur without interceding) and just making excuses for his father. Still. Evan though he blames his father for everything. It is an interesting dynamic how all that works when parents don't let you grow up. My H also has OCD issues regarding his relationship with his parents, i.e. if he does certain things he thinks it means something bad will happen to them. So, there is that too. Sounds very similar to your H, critical but unwilling to change. A therapist my husband once saw who I spoke to compared this behavior to a child having a temper tantrum and when my H gives into his parents it is like giving the tantruming child candy. It just teaches them that the only way to get relief is to do what his parents want.

ALL of that to say, literally zero about anything in these sessions is about me. Sometimes, I feel like an outsider even being there. I really hope my H's business can take off a little and then maybe it will put him in a better mindset. I know, especially for men, so much can be tied to money and success. But at the same time, it is so hard for me to believe this all started with "I can only be happy again if I have sex with other people" and that was so far from what actually is going on it is almost laughable.


I know this growth can by done, my H's sister has in fact taken steps to put healthy boundaries in place and has been able to maintain a decent relationship with her parents during all of that.


I agree with school and routine. I am with you, the summer just seems like a hard time for everyone. For now I am staying put and trying to work on myself, put down boundaries when I am uncomfortable and just go from there. Not sure what else I could do unless I just wanted to leave, you know? On the one hand, I don't want to be stuck here, but on the other hand, I feel like right now I am not ready for change in terms of divorcing and that is the only change I can have at this point. Who knows. My H has been a tad better about being involved with the kids too and when he is in the mood he can be a lot more patient than me with homework issues, which happen a lot with my oldest.


So, I guess I am going to keep trucking along. Do you spend time with your inlaws and do they have a decent relationship with your DH? The relationship between my in-laws and my kids is a whole other topic for a different day but it is never dull, that is for sure.

It's good that you are feeling more in control of your situation. The downside, of course, is his willingness or unwillingness to do what he needs to do, but at least you can let him own that part while you focus on things within your control.

That's interesting about the foot curling. I'd never heard that, but can see how that would be a thing. Is he doing the rolling? What about the other thing? Has he been doing the pillow/ racket exercise? If he has done it, how has it been, and has it seemed to have any effect?

I've heard of "rage therapy" for people who are working through trauma and feel stuck by anger, but they usually have to be able to acknowledge the anger first? Is your H able to acknowledge the anger he feels? That's an issue for mine. He's obviously angry, but denies and covers it out of habit. He grew up in a household where only Mom was allowed to be angry (even to this day), so the rest can't have their real feelings, and have unhealthy ways of dealing with them.

My H's family dynamic might have been a little like your H's. His mother is very controlling and domineering (and openly abusive, but the family won't acknowledge it as such), and his father is very passive and just lets things happen. FIL has a bit of a victim mentality, cowing to MIL even when she's way out of line, and that's all the kids knew. There are virtually no boundaries in his FOO (family of origin). They bicker constantly, and up until recently, I didn't have a full concept of just how toxic they were behind closed doors. Until a few years ago, H seemed to be the one who rose above the dysfunction and pettiness.

Sometimes I think DD going through phases of childhood development triggered H's childhood trauma and set off the midlife events. But that still wouldn't be a valid excuse for things he's said and done.

My H has black-and-white thinking (splitting) that's common in cluster B's, as well as some other conditions. He can't see his parents as complex beings- both good and flawed at the same time, so justifies the abuse and horrible behaviors in order to believe that mom and dad are ultimately good- and therefore he is too. Psychologically speaking, he and his FOO are rather enmeshed.

Our relationship with his parents is difficult. When we do see them, he hides somewhere with his dad and I "babysit" his mother, which for short spans isn't a problem. A few years ago, FIL told a third party that he was boggled by how well I handle MIL and her shenanigans. The reality is that it's just good manners and boundaries, but that's a mystery to them. She will literally have full blown temper tantrums to get what she wants, and the rest of them panic to placate her- except me. The candy analogy you used is good, that's an apt way to put it. It's dawning on me in this very moment why I'm so often in the role of villain….

Ugh, I'm rattling on. Maybe some of that is relatable to you though?

It's great that through your counseling, the real root of the matter came to light, and it moved away from that place where he was convinced he needed to go be with others. There must be relief in that at least? As much as counseling doesn't always serve you, at least maybe you've been supported in that particular boundary?

The other day I was scrolling through YouTube and saw that Dr. Ramani had a video about how narcissists dominate in therapy sessions. I haven't watched it yet, but thought there might be some pertinent info in it regarding experiences like you and I have both had.

For now I am staying put and trying to work on myself, put down boundaries when I am uncomfortable and just go from there. Not sure what else I could do unless I just wanted to leave, you know? On the one hand, I don't want to be stuck here, but on the other hand, I feel like right now I am not ready for change in terms of divorcing and that is the only change I can have at this point. Who knows. My H has been a tad better about being involved with the kids too and when he is in the mood he can be a lot more patient than me with homework issues, which happen a lot with my oldest.

My life is largely cohabitating, self improvement, and wondering what the future looks like. The important thing to remember is that you can change your mind about direction at any time. For right now, where you are makes sense on some level. Life is subject to change. Whether he changes, you change, or both, things will shift at some point. You could change your mind tomorrow about what you are doing, or next year, or maybe never. We'll get where we're going eventually, and it will make sense as long as we're acting in healthy ways and taking care of ourselves, kwim?

I am kind of curious about the relationship between your kids and in-laws since you mentioned it. My MIL acts as though her grandchildren are possessions that should bend to her will and serve her. From the time DD was little, I had to carefully put down boundaries to make sure DD's best interests were protected. It wasn't always easy. Now that she's older, DD is pretty good at maintaining her own boundaries.

Hope that you're doing well and having a nice weekend.

He is definitely doing the rolling, not sure if it helps or not but I guess time will tell.

That’s so interesting about the parallel with the anger. My H also has trouble admitting his anger. He also actually I think has trouble feeling it. My H also grew up in a house where he was not allowed to feel his feelings, everything always had to be “okay” and to this day that is still the case. He’ll even cringe when I cry at a book or movie like it is so weird to express emotions that way.

We had couples therapy today and he mentioned his sister suggested he go to family therapy with his mom and dad (doubt he would actually go) and that his sister would join to support him. This actually I feel would be beneficial. I doubt it will happen but if it did maybe he would finally work through this stuff.

So with this couples therapist he was back to examining how this sexual connection with another person would save him and he wants to leave me, his kids, and his parents behind. That this new girl would be in her 20s (he’s 40 and I’m in my late 30s) and could abuse him or have borderline personality disorder but he wouldn’t care. First of all, this as always makes no sense. But I think the therapist is subtly drawing a parallel between him being “impotent” which is the word she used, with his father and finding that “potency” that way. The therapist is pretty blunt and at one point she said something to him like maybe he just “needs to get laid” and she sort of lost me with that, although she has been provocative with him to elicit a response. Needless to say, I did not like this. Then, in the next moment it was like hey let’s talk about what you (me) want from this relationship. My H has punished me for responses before when I’m like how am I supposed to answer this while I’m in this traumatic situation, so I made some garbage up but like I find it really really unfair to have to analyze my relationship and wants and needs in the context of him reiterating he has no interest in working on our relationship and her asking him what he wants for this sexual connection and the get laid comment.

At the time, I felt like a non-reaction to this served me better but I’m not sure. I feel like it’s pretty disrespectful to me but then again my H likes to be contrary and I’ve cried to him so much about stuff like this so maybe acting nonchalant is better. It just felt and feels like this therapist is for him, you know?

So in terms of the relationship between my in laws and kids, my FIL has co-opted my oldest as his own, he hates my middle child who is super emotional and probably emotionally smart enough at 7 to see through his garbage and my five year old is still pretty young but since she’s a girl he can’t be bothered. And of course my MIL just stands by all passive. My in-laws are so emotionally limited.

Anyway, that is my update. Think I’m still processing everything that happened earlier today so thanks for being my sounding board, you really do offer me such insight and I’m so grateful!

I am so sorry. My mind is just boggled that the therapist was so insensitive and disrespectful to your feelings. Yeah, maybe she's trying to provoke something in him or get to a point, but it strikes me as unprofessional at best for her to subject you to that in the process. Just SMH here.

It really doesn't feel like marriage counseling Shouldn't marriage counseling be about the marriage? About finding unity and harmony? It almost seems like it's not marriage counseling, but more like some kind of tandem counseling session where he dominates. But it doesn't sound like he's working very hard to come towards the center and you, so where does it go?

That comment she made would have lost and bothered me as well. What could the point of that be? Again, does she realize that you're in the room???

Based on patterns, if this were my marriage, my suspicion would be that my H realized that over the last few weeks he's lost control of the narrative, and is doubling down on it by going back to the original issue that caused the stress and problems. Is it possible that he's resurrecting it to try to put himself back in the driver's seat?

Maybe your individual counselor might have some better ideas for you? Wow, my heart hurts for you.

My gut would be that non reaction serves you better too, but I also understand the reservations about that. If you show emotion, that can be power and control for him. OTOH if you don't react, then maybe you're afraid of giving off the vibe that you aren't very invested?

I'm slowly learning that even if I'm not openly emotional, I can still state my feelings clearly to make them known. You don't have to break down into tears in order to express how you're feeling, and to make a strong point. Unfortunately, I'm often caught off guard in situations like that and can't always organize thoughts in the moment . With practice, it gets easier though.

It does sound like there are some parallels between your H's family and mine, but that's probably not all that surprising. It seems like this was covered in the PA book, about how PA develops because open assertiveness and emotional displays aren't tolerated in the FOO. My in-laws are those old school "boys don't cry" type, and H only has brothers, and the brothers only have sons, so you can probably see the whole systemic dysfunction that could take hold here. But MIL will try to tell DD what she should and shouldn't feel- which just seems so weird to tell another person what's allowed to go on inside of them. MIL acts borderline, with emotions unpredictable and all over the place- so acceptable for her, but no one else. At times I feel so badly for the kid H had to be, but at the same time, I'm not here to pay the penance for it.

I'm so sorry this week went the way it did for you. Keep taking care of yourself and your kids and keep moving one day at a time. I'm glad if I can be here as some help and comfort. There have been some very lonely and confusing episodes in my life the last few years, so I get what it can feel like, and that there aren't always direct answers. There's so little education on the kinds of things we deal with that I have to imagine there are a whole lot of other people out there trying to make sense of something similar and figure out their own direction.

Hugs for you. I hope the coming week is better.

Thanks so much for your response, it along with talking this out with my best friend also really validated my reaction which I appreciate. In fact, I was telling my friend that I don't even really remember a lot of what happened because I blocked it out and she was telling me that it is a trauma response. When the therapist was talking to him about "let's explore this fantasy" I just went in my head to another place I remember telling myself just to start counting to ten or thinking of something else mostly so I halfway heard some of what he said and as for the rest I have blocked it out. I do think the therapist really brought it up, not him, but it is his choice in how to respond. It is interesting your thought about losing control of the narrative and I do agree. If I focus on the weeks before that, as I had shared with you, the therapy had become about working on my H, his past trauma, how that was shaping how he is now, his inner rage, inability to decide and the like. It is a whole lot easier to think he's going to go have sex with some random 20 year old that will make him feel like a man again and leave his whole life behind rather than working on himself and fixing what is there. So that does put things in perspective. And I get why that is easier especially when he feels like he is a failure. We are surrounded by a lot of wealth in our day-to-day lives that we don't have. One of our kids had a play date at our house this past weekend and he told me he was embarrassed to have the child over and his mother pick him up. And for the record it is not like we are going hungry, it is just we certainly do not have the sort of generational wealth a lot of our kids' friends have.


On the other hand, no this does not feel like couples counseling. My feelings are really irrelevant to her and my husband and are not really discussed other than an off-hand comment here or there. I find it insulting that I would be asked about what I want from my H in a relationship after having to sit through that and to be honest I am impressed I came up with anything. But, how can it be couples counseling when he states he has no interest in working on our marriage, but will do nothing to separate, so we are stuck in this awful holding pattern. In fact, over the weekend after he did take our younger two kids to a friends house and hang out with the dads that were there he went out with his recently divorced friend (or so he claimed because honestly how do I believe anything he says) and he stayed out until 3am with no word of anything to me which I also find completely disrespectful. But then, back in the day this would have elicited a big reaction from me calling him and wondering where he was so I consciously decided to have no reaction. It definitely feels like he is testing me but to what end? I need to speak to my therapist about this and unfortunately I don't see her again until next week.


When you are talking about feeling bad for the kid your H was but not paying the penance for it, you could be taking the words out of my own mouth. I do feel for what he had to go for but why should I be punished? This whole situation is just super difficult. Right now I am listening to my H (our home offices are across from each other) be so patient and understanding with one of his admittedly crazy business partners and it boggles the mind how I always get the worst of him. We are supposed to go back to this therapist on Thursday and now I am not sure if I will go and just be checked out or refuse to go or what. As always thanks so much for listening and I hope you are having a decent Monday!

You're in a tough spot. He's making it so hard for you . Don't let it be any harder than necessary.

Yeah, that does sound like you had a trauma response. I wonder if the therapist had any clue about how it was affecting you? Again SMH. Good for you for being able to come up with a response of some kind when prodded. I wish I could give you a hug in real life.

He's broken and you can't fix him. Only he can fix him, and who knows if he even has the ability or want at this point.

My personal experience over time has been that the more I tried to fix things, or tried to help him, the more resistant and the worse he became. Once I backed away and started focusing heavily on myself, he doesn't act out quite so much. It's like once my focus was off him, he got scared, you know? And maybe he should be scared about that divide. Maybe he's afraid that he's lost his power and will end up left behind at some point, or maybe he's just trying to get me back on some proverbial hook. Since I don't take bait anymore, and focus on adult behaviors and interactions, it doesn't matter. We can either interact liked adults, or I can detach mentally and emotionally and do my own thing.

This may have been said earlier in the thread, but I was told to not go to marriage counseling unless your SO has empathy and respect for you, and a willingness to work on the marriage. Who could blame you for choosing to not go back? It's not serving you. Perhaps there are other places where your time and energy could be better spent? If he shows no interest in working on the marriage at this point, why bother? In some ways, you ending up at these counseling sessions and getting the short end of the stick, could potentially be another place where he's exerting his control dynamic- just a thought though.

Something that I recalled the other day, was that at the end of the session I attended with dh, the counselor said to me, "Come back again. Or don't. I don't care." Which in retrospect seemed kind of snarky. I wonder what she thought about my not returning. If I'd gone back, she probably would have pegged me as a nagging, controlling codependent. By not going back, perhaps she just thinks I don't care about him or the marriage. Who knows, but it's an annoying place to feel cornered.

I feel for you about him talking to other people in much nicer ways. That's surprisingly common . We probably all do that to some extent- public versus private faces- but there's also this level of two-facedness that's really galling. This may be one of the places where my H differs slightly. He can only keep it together for a limited time- a bit like a dementia patient who's "show timing" for a doctor. Mine openly admits that he doesn't have the energy or focus to maintain acting "normal" for very long, so DD and I get dropped. And while I take things he says like that with a grain of salt (maybe it's just manipulation) it is one place his actions and words do seem to align. Part of the big "who knows?" In his case maybe it's depression, or maybe a bigger neurological problem, or ???? No matter the cause, it's still hurtful and painful. Just remember that it's not you, and it's not a referendum on who you are, it's an indicator of who he is and what's going on inside him.

And that staying out…. that's pretty unacceptable, and you're right, it's probably him testing. His broken child-self being defiant. My H does similar things, though not at night. He's notorious for having only a half day of work, saying he'll be home for lunch with me, but then going over and spending the afternoon at one of our friend's houses, without a word. Seriously, is he 12 years old? It caused problems initially, but now I just get on with my life, eat lunch with or without him, whatever…. He does it less the more he doesn't get a reaction. But with these "little hiccups" he's damaged the relationship in ways I don't think he can even comprehend.

There are times I swear he does that sort of thing because he's actively picking a fight to give his brain a dopamine hit or something. Either that or he's trying to recreate the dynamic with his mom where he only got attention when he did something wrong. Give him what he wants and it's just positive reinforcement, even though it's hard to believe that's what someone would want.

Anyhow, no great answers, but support for you as best as I can from way over here. No matter what, just do what's right for you on any given day, and let the chips fall where they may. I know that's easier said than done, but don't lose sight of your value as an individual, seperate from the relationship. Heck, focus on that…

I agree with everything you are saying. I am fresh off another weekly session which was not as traumatic as last time, thank goodness, but I have had to re-frame what is happening to get myself through it. I am now telling myself that these are counseling sessions for my H that I am attending with him. Most of them time, I would say other than the first session and an off hand question here or there, the therapist is not even asking me anything about what I want or need, only getting some observations from me about my H's life or to expound upon a comment I make about what my H says about him. If I do look at it that way, then it makes a whole lot more sense. My H revealed something during the session today that he had previously told me that is a horrific childhood experience involving his father and he has a memory of it but is not sure if it is true or not. The therapist got wrapped up in that, and rightly so, but she does think it is true and it does make sense. Basically her bottom line was that my H doesn't know how to experience or feel love because of all of his childhood trauma, except that he thinks he can get it in some deviant/sexual way. Luckily we didn't harp too much on that point today.

I don't know what that means for me honestly. On the way home my H asked me what I am getting out of this marriage right now and I was just sort of like I don't think that's a fair question because you have shut down our marriage. How could I be getting anything out of it? I asked him why he asked me that and basically he wanted company on that he's not really getting anything out of it but the point is he has made it that way and that is his choice. And, he can also chose to unstick himself from this situation in about a million different ways but instead he chooses to do nothing. The whole thing is just really sad and depressing but I do feel like I am at the point where I am very certain and more than ever that none of this is my fault. And my H can chose to leave or work on our marriage, but he wants to not make a choice instead. I do feel that unless he addresses these underlying issues nothing will change, so here we are.


So you are exactly right, I am going to continue focusing on myself, enjoying my kids, my friends and my hobbies. I am also going to focus on being non-reactive to anything my husband throws my way, since today was pretty traumatic for him, I am assuming he may act out soon. I am anxious to get to talk to my therapist next week as well.

I hope that you are having a wonderful week with calm family dynamics. As awful as it is that we are going through somewhat similar experiences, I am so grateful that you are hear to listen and give advice.

Glad to hear that this week's session was a little better, but it does sound like your joint sessions are really "him events." Do you plan to keep going? It's commendable to want to help him, but at the same time it seems like you may be ending up depleted, or just plain frustrated.

Joshua Milburn of The Minimalists has written a few essays about how relationships are like an imaginary box between two people (this is going to be heavily paraphrased). Healthy relationships require give and take, back and forth. Each person has to be able to contribute something worthwhile to the box, and also be able to take meaningful things away from the box. When the giving and taking are too out of balance, it's not a relationship anymore. Resentments start to build. It's important that one person isn't always filling the box, while the other empties it.

A while back, someone told me something that resonated with me, I'll share it on the chance that you'll get something out of it:

All marriages eventually end, whether by divorce or death. Whether it's by choice or chance, and whether it's tomorrow, six months from now, five years from now, or twenty, at some point something is going to change. Who do you want to be when that time comes? That's the person to work on becoming. You should be able to be that well-centered individual, and still participate in a meaningful relationship with another person. Become the person you want and need to be for yourself, and let him decide if he's interested in accompanying you on that ride. You can make you about you without being a self absorbed narcissist type. I've struggled a lot with the concept of healthy selfishness- it's a real and necessary thing, and when we honor ourselves more, we tend to have more to offer others, believe it or not.

That's great that you can begin to see that his problems aren't your fault or responsibility. For someone like him (or my H), there can be a lot more comfort in shifting the blame onto someone else, rather than taking a hard look in the mirror. In H's FOO, they will have blame-shifting conversations that would be hilarious if they weren't just sad.

Anyhow, keep finding those boundaries, and learning to take care of yourself; eventually you'll know what the right move is, or what the answers are. There's a good story in Codependent No More where she talks about being scared driving in the rain because she had to get home and felt like she couldn't see where she was going. Then she realized that she just needed to focus on driving as far as she could see- and then she could see further. Even if you don't know what the future looks like, just keep focusing on what you can see in front of you, and let more become visible as you get further along.

I hope your H hasn't thrown any major curveballs at you in the last few days. I know how that goes, and there's something very wrong with having that Spidey Sense that tingles and warns you that it may be coming. That sort of thing tells you that you've been doing this pattern too long.

Mine has seemed to shift out of the predominantly hypomanic mode (which is predictable for this time of year, but again, according to the pros I don't know what I'm talking about…). So he's a little lower energy for the moment, but that's not necessarily much better, just different. As DD has said, "He's been like this for so long now, that even when it's not weird, it's weird." It's just always weird…

Hang in there and keep on keeping on.

They totally are. And, I just got back from another one of these therapy sessions for my husband that I also attend (which is what I am calling it now since that is what it is) and we explicitly discussed this. Basically, he said to her what I told him which is that these are counseling sessions to help him and address his issues that I am sitting in on. And, I expressed that I feel like I am benefiting from them in the sense that it helps me understand him better because while I knew he was in therapy this whole time other than a few tiny things here and there I have never been involved in his therapy. He expressed that I wouldn't tell him things in this context like "what my ideal sex life looks like" or "what I want from him." She told him that's because it is not a safe space for me to do so. She also said, like what you and I have said previously, is that we cannot do marriage counseling until he addresses his own issues. That when a party is ambivalent like he is right now, marriage counseling doesn't work. She said he can do individual therapy to deal with his rage and have me witness it or what she really wants him to do is have his sister (the one person from his own family of origin who is in therapy too and even half way understands all the trauma and abuse they went through) come to town and do family therapy together, potentially also with his parents.

So, that was really helpful for me to hear because she doesn't think she is my therapist and she is telling him something that may help him if he ever does it. All that is well and good. In the meantime, I had a good and overdue session with my own therapist who I really like as she always has some sort of action plan for me which I appreciate because it helps me concentrate on things I actually can control and to top it off we met with our middle child's therapist this morning too so I felt that was helpful too. I've never been a party to so much therapy before in my entire life though.I am definitely feeling VERY self actualized and her action items are really helping me both individually and to deal with the situation at hand. I did appreciate that story about the driving in the rain because it just highlights the importance of staying in the now. If I think about the future too much it becomes very hard. It is a challenging exercise but ultimately so much better just to focus on the now and what you can control.

I was remarking to my therapist that what is crazy to me is how this started off as "I am depressed because our marriage is bad because we don't have the sexual connection I need" to someone who has childhood trauma and has not really grown up and away from it and is having a crisis re: that, which has nothing at all to do with me even a little. I do get sad sometimes, I don't know if you ever have this feeling, that I don't have a partner in things and my emotional support system via my husband that used to be there isn't. I do really miss that and the feeling of being a team. But, either it will come back in time or it won't and I will have to decide what to do about that.

How are things with you? Your DD sounds very wise, it is so interesting how insightful kids are even when they are young. I hope everything is going well and that you too are enjoying the end of the week and hopefully focusing on yourself. It is so interesting how challenging that can be sometimes!

---I do get sad sometimes, I don't know if you ever have this feeling, that I don't have a partner in things and my emotional support system via my husband that used to be there isn't. I do really miss that and the feeling of being a team. But, either it will come back in time or it won't and I will have to decide what to do about that.---

100% yes. I could have written this exactly. The loneliness is terrible at times. He's not in a place where he can offer productive support. He's trapped in a selfish world. You're right, at a point you may realize that you want, and are going to seek, something more for yourself.

IMO, it's harder when you have younger children. That's very tiring even with a good two person team. When there's any breakdown in that, life's that much harder.

Now that DD is older and a little more self sufficient, so am I in a lot of ways. I don't *need* other people quite as much, though it would be very nice to have more of that at times. In my pervasive loneliness, though, I've become one of those people who will chat with just about anyone. You know what? There are a lot of very lonely people out there who enjoy random five and ten minute conversations too. Still, it's not the same as that deeper connection we both feel like we enjoyed at one time. I work on other aspects of myself for the time being.

There's a relationship expert (can't think of her name right now) who says that people leave when they're ready to leave. Her experience is that there isn't some designated time to call it quits, it's just something you'll know. You know why where you are is the right place to be at present, and if that changes, you'll be the first to know.

Did you feel validated by the therapist this week in regard to her acknowledging that the therapy is much more about him? It sounds like in some ways she's on the same page as you, understanding his limitations in regard to being able to productively work on the marriage, or respect what's fair to ask of you.

I'm somewhat curious about what H talks about in his counseling, but the recovering codependent in me has to stay backed away from it. There could be some benefit and ability to help, depending on the circumstances. Are you going to continue to accompany him? What do you think about the possibility of the sister accompanying him? Do you think that might help him? Would she do that? Does he want that? Sorry, that's a lot of questions, but it's an interesting direction. Just spitballing here, but it seems like with the sister there, maybe he'd focus more on the childhood trauma rather than some desire to go outside the marriage?

Your therapist sounds really great. That she gives you a plan of action that feels proactive seems good. Sometimes it's easy to get stuck and lose sight of positive things you can do. And it says a lot about you that you have a growth mindset. Even if he stays stuck somewhere, you are doing things to move yourself forward, right?

And, yeah, when we're in very complex and overwhelming situations, thinking ahead too far isn't helpful.

This week sounds like one that you've done a good job looking after your own needs.

It's been a weird one for us, but you know… more of the same. He looks like he's moved into a more depressed place, but is also putting on this very over the top act of being happy at times. To the point that it comes across as creepy. It feels a lot like borderline personality this week, but also the other things too. Detach, detach, detach….

This is so true. And the thing that bugs me so much is that it feels like a choice even though it is not. I don't know since I haven't been in that position, but at least a choice not to engage with your life and instead to just stay so disconnected. I know none of the therapists ever try to push him so maybe there is a reason for that but I can't help but be frustrated. I know that frustration is valid because it is just awful to be in a marriage with someone who doesn't care about you or maybe less bad, doesn't appear to care about you.


That relationship expert sounds right and I am not going to pretend I have not thought about it. I have to imagine at some point for any person the bad outweighs the good and when that happens you get more serious about leaving.

I did feel validated by her when she said that. Especially because H brought it up in the context that he feels I was "attacking" him when I said that which is about par for the course since my discussing the role of the therapist with him was of course about me and my feelings and not about him. She was pretty straightforward when she said to him that he shouldn't expect me to be talking about what I want in a relationship or sex life with him if he is "ambivalent" so I did appreciate that a lot.


We didn't make another appointment with her, part of it is that she is out of town next week and I'm unavailable the week after, but part of it is unless he is going to work on himself there's no reason for us to be there as a couple right now. I think family therapy with his sister and maybe his mom or dad is one way for him to start seriously working on himself. I am not sure if he will actually do it. I think he would have his sister come there and she suggested the family therapy to help him so the question is will he do it? I like his sister but he did mention when we were discussing the family therapy with the therapist that she had offered to come do that and also to help him move out and get set up. Prior, the therapist and I had agreed if he does move out he needs to do it himself. So I do get nervous that his sister will come here and enable him and just take care of everything, i.e. him leaving and I would be very upset if that is way things happened. But, I am telling myself it is so unproductive for me to predict the future so I won't think about that just yet. The therapist also suggested something my therapist just suggested which is the EMDR therapy to help him deal with trauma. He was as open to that as he is to anything else which is to say not very.


I keep going back to one thing my H said two sessions ago, he was talking to the therapist about being around our daughter who is our youngest, just turned 5, and she is very bubbly by nature and always sort of overflowing with joy. He was describing being around her and saying he sees the joy and love but doesn't experience it. He was saying it is like being in a world where music is playing and he's the only one who can't hear it. I think that is probably a good analogy for what he is going through and very sad. But, it is like you said about wanting/not wanting to see what your H does in therapy, on the one hand I can feel bad for him, but on the other hand, his actions have a direct effect on me, the life we've built and my children and so I think it is okay to feel bad for him, be frustrated at him, and try to just do what I can. So I guess that is what we are doing.


Another question I have for you, is if you and your H do things as a couple in front of others does it ever fee weird to you since things are not as they seem? We have a weird double date at the end of the week that he scheduled with a couple we are not very close to so I am sort of not looking forward to doing all that. I am okay with the "pretending" thing like pretending he hasn't said he wants to leave in every day life but when it crosses the line into "acting" I get uncomfortable. My birthday is coming up and it is the same day as a big football game here he has been invited to and he asked me more or less should he go since it is my birthday. I find that to be a weird concept, he tells me he has no interest in our marriage, he is not an active participant in our marriage, but he worries I'll be offended if he goes to a football game on my birthday? Just very confusing and makes no sense.Sounds like you have had something similar going on in what you were describing your H being depressed but acting over the top happy at times.


Sorry for the rambling today, I think it is as all over the place as I feel!!

Sometimes I think H's counselor doesn't push or challenge him because she figures it's pointless. He's not very open to acknowledging his shortcomings as a means to growth, so if that's the case, who could blame her?

I've heard, on more than one occasion, that some counselors don't make a lot of effort once they determine that a patient doesn't have a mindset for growth. You can lead a horse to water and all that…. My H didn't choose to go to counseling FWIW; he got to a point where it was no longer optional. It's possible that he's using the counseling sessions as an echo chamber or to insulate himself against problematic behavior ("Hey, I'm in counseling. What's your excuse?")

Yeah, the approach of not trying to predict the future is good, as hard as it feels at times. It's one of those things that may be largely out of your control? But your concern for what the sister may do if she were to visit, is understandable.

It's too bad that he's not interested in helping himself more and exploring things like the EMDR. Do you think that the disinterest is a symptom of depression, or do you think he gets something out of not showing interest, or pursuing change? As a general rule, people tend to do what gets them the result they want.

Your daughter sounds so cute and sweet . It is sad that he can't experience that, but interesting that he has that awareness of not being able to connect with it.

It's so okay for you to feel all that frustration, anger, resentment, whatever at your H. Feel anything you feel, there's nothing wrong with it. Even if it's the depression or some other condition that's somewhat beyond his control, that doesn't make your experience or feelings invalid. You can feel those things and still have compassion for what he's going through.

—->Another question I have for you, is if you and your H do things as a couple in front of others does it ever fee weird to you since things are not as they seem? We have a weird double date at the end of the week that he scheduled with a couple we are not very close to so I am sort of not looking forward to doing all that. I am okay with the "pretending" thing like pretending he hasn't said he wants to leave in every day life but when it crosses the line into "acting" I get uncomfortable. My birthday is coming up and it is the same day as a big football game here he has been invited to and he asked me more or less should he go since it is my birthday. I find that to be a weird concept, he tells me he has no interest in our marriage, he is not an active participant in our marriage, but he worries I'll be offended if he goes to a football game on my birthday? Just very confusing and makes no sense.Sounds like you have had something similar going on in what you were describing your H being depressed but acting over the top happy at times. ←–

H and I evolved into that more isolated stage that you sometimes read about. Between his increasing negativity and self centeredness, our friends slowly drifted away. The dynamic where he seems to put on an act when other people are around, came later as his health and general well-being got worse. In H's case, he often seems like he's putting on a good front- like the way an animal tries to cover an illness- and after a certain amount of time can't keep doing it and will start zoning out or not looking well. Who knows if it's exhaustion caused by depression, or if it's a sign that he's got a deeper medical condition that's still undiscovered- possibly a little of both. Anyhow, people drifted away, and it became more trouble and effort for me than what it was worth, so we don't socialize much.

Birthdays… oh boy! That's probably where the earliest forms of passive aggressive behavior came out big time. He's one of those PAs who can covertly spoil any occasion. Over the last few years, my feeling has become that he can do whatever he wants, or join in on what DD and I already have planned. We never did much for birthdays, but his neglect, or other antics, were painful at times. Now, instead of wishing he were something different, I buy myself something I like, bake or buy the cake I want, and prepare a meal, maybe have some other plans. It's not ideal, not the way I wish my relationship operated, but I'm rarely disappointed. The more it doesn't depend on him, the more he seems to try and be involved in a positive way Now he's lost control, and he doesn't want to be left out. And that's fine- this way he can choose to do something nice, or do nothing at all -- which is to say that he doesn't have the opportunity to do mean passive aggressive things anymore.

Hope you have a happy birthday no matter what happens. Do something nice for yourself! You deserve it!

That makes perfect sense, I guess if you go to a therapist and they know you have no interest in changing what is the point of challenging the patient? It is probably a universally accepted truth that you have to want to change and grow for it to be possible and that want has to come from within, not an external source otherwise it doesn't work.


For my H, I think that the disinterest is both of the things you mention. First, he is clearly depressed and has an overall lack of affect/emotion when those things are appropriate. He is simply not engaged and I do think much of that is a symptom of depression. Second, I think he is getting something out of this stance he has where he refuses to do anything or make any decisions. I don't know if it makes him feel powerful or my guess is that since he views any change as an opportunity for a "mistake" or as "dangerous" (i.e. non-parent approved change would cause something bad to happen to him or his parents) that is keeping him from doing anything as well. And, the more entrenched he gets the harder it is for him to change. He is somewhat better than he was during the summer but his behavior is far from normal and he is really not interested in too much beyond video gaming or running his business to some extent. This is why, I think, for him it is so much easier to think about leaving everything and everyone behind and starting over even though he will admit that solves nothing, is a quick fix, and he will end up back where he started.


I can see what you mean re: isolated stage. I think they tend to get wrapped so much in their own stuff it is hard to keep up with anything else at all. My H has also distanced himself from his friends who he would normally be talking to a lot. My take from the advice you've given, my therapist has given, and I've read in general is just to go about my life. So, the interesting thing is (apart from the double date we have tomorrow) is that tonight we have a party with parents from one of my kids' schools. Our babysitter bailed so I told him I would just go with another mom who is single. He didn't like that and expressed that he wants to go too, which is definitely a change because all of last spring he shirked all those activities at all costs. So I do think your overall advice of doing what I want and then letting him figure it out works well. Or put another way, when I want him to come or it is his idea to stay home, that's fine but if I want him to stay home that's when things change.


I do feel like birthdays are always walking on eggshells even in the best of times. I have a good group of friends and we always do birthday plans for each other so with that and whatever I want with the kids I don't really care what he does and I certainly wouldn't hang my birthday hat on any plans (or lack thereof) made by him. I just find it ironic that he's asking me about birthday plans when he doesn't want to be married to me. I know it is not that simple but it makes me want to laugh and cry. It sounds like you do have the birthday thing down to a science and I will plan on following your example next week for sure. I am someone who doesn't put a lot of stock in my own birthday celebrations - to me I care a lot more how people treat me every day then if they recognize my birthday or not.


I have also sort of been having fun with my therapists advice of "playing detective". So my H likes to make many passive aggressive digs at my family. My parents are on a long trip and he made some dig about them being on a trip and instead of having any reaction I did play detective and asked him why my parents' trip was important to him and it turns out he is mad I didn't get any money from my grandmother when she passed away recently, it all went to her children (including my mother). So I do find it interesting how "playing detective" can really reveal the reasoning behind these statements.


I will report back after our double date tomorrow. I can't remember the last time we went out with one other couple, we have done many group parties and some one-on-one things but it has been ages since we've had a dinner like this so the dynamics will be interesting to see.

How did it feel to skip the joint counseling this week? Did you feel like you were missing something? Was it a relief? Something else? Your own feelings can tell you a lot…

Did the missed session have any noticeable effect on him?

How did the double date go? What about the party? Did that get figured out in an acceptable way? Odd-funny how that was suddenly an issue for him. But, yes, live your own life, hold your boundaries, and don't feel bad to have some expectations of him.

Has your birthday happened already? How was it? Happy birthday from over here! Hope it was a good one. Given how you generally treat birthdays, his actions do seem out of sync. If he were my H, my thought would be that he's being classically consistently inconsistent as a means of feeling some sense of involvement and possibly control- which is something he may not even do consciously.

That's great advice from your therapist. Those kinds of questions sound like a good way to redirect the issue back to him, but in a proactive and respectful way.

Your assessments of the reasons you think he does what he does, are insightful. Especially about how he fears making mistakes and how that relates back to the way his parents treated him. Thinking about it, it may apply to my H too. His mother can postmortem anything into what you did wrong, or what could have been better, even if everything went fine For people like DD and myself, we politely acknowledge it for nothing more than the sake of moving on, but it's potentially a significant issue in his development. Nothing was ever good enough.

What you shared about how he wants a quick fix or some form of starting fresh, resonates too. A few times, when H has been very depressed, he's said that he wants a "reset button", which sounds sort of similar. He's focusing on missed opportunities and past mistakes, but is unable to accept that there's no choice but to accept what's done and move forward. And he just can't seem to get there for whatever reason. Being stuck like that means he's continuing to waste time/life.

This week has been as weird as any. He's back to looking more spacey and rattled in recent days. Hard to explain… it was almost like he had decent focus for a week or two, but now it's dropped off again- not necessarily firing on all cylinders. This is part of the pattern that has become regular, and somewhat predictable over the past few years. DD's school had their homecoming party this past weekend, and she talked about it constantly all last week, did dry runs with her outfit and hair several times, with him seemingly interacting and acknowledging what she was doing. On Saturday night when she was getting ready to go, he was baffled about what was going on. When I explained it, he got a little agro and paranoid- like things were being hidden from him. For probably obvious reasons, we don't over-share with him, but it was hardly hidden either- he's just so self focused, he often seems to have no idea of what's going on around him. That part gets frustrating- him not being tuned in, and then getting upset when he doesn't know what's going on- and doing so in a way that suggests someone else is to blame. There are many times, like this one, that he reminds me of other family members when they were in early dementia. I can't let myself think about that too long. And I have to continue to leave the possibility of passive aggression and manipulation on the table for my own sake.

I hope that things are going well where you are and that you had a great birthday!

Honestly it felt better at least because I didn't have to go pretend the counseling was also for me. I am guessing if I went now it would feel better because she clarified the role that I have there. I think my main problem was that she never made clear to me that I was not her patient so not knowing that, I felt mistreated because I knew she wasn't counseling me or looking out for my interests. It did not have any effect on him, and I did ask him if he was planning on doing the family therapy she recommended and he was non-committal so seems like that is not something that is happening now.

The double date and party ended up fine. He did figure out the party thing and joined me there as I had already planned to go with a friend and certainly was not going to change my plans for him. The double date was fine, I like this couple and he was able to socialize regularly but it does feel weird to me.

My birthday is actually tomorrow. I have kids sports stuff and then a happy hour with girlfriends and then my H and I may go to dinner. I finally told him I felt it was weird for us to go to dinner because it felt like a farce. We actually had somewhat of a good conversation because I came to this realization that when it comes to our relationship my H has what we both call "rock brain". That is a term my oldest son's therapist coined. Since my oldest son is on the spectrum, we use this term with him. It means that his brain is not flexible and he is not open to considering actual reality, compromise or specifics of the situation and instead is focusing on his idea of what he wants with no room for negotiation even if the idea is not based on reality. For example, my boys share a room and my oldest won't go to bed if his little brother is in there with him, even if he is quiet so the fact that he is not alone means he won't sleep even apart from the actual circumstances. My H has rock brain because he has told himself he is out of our relationship so he is just not open to it regardless of how he actually feels or the specifics. I was happy H admitted this is true because that felt pretty good to be validated. H acknowledged that it is weird to go to dinner but he is open to it.

This week my therapist recommended this book, "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix actually for my H but I am pre-screening and I find it fascinating. It talks all about why partners pick each other in terms of negative and positive traits from their parents and different ways to come together as a couple and how that has evolved over the years. There are a few really helpful and interesting things there even just for me myself. I also told my H during our conversation that I do think he has the capacity to change if he wants to. He is just in this very toxic era and it is sometimes, as you know, so toxic it feels like we are all under water with him.


Do you think having predictability in your H's pattern makes it easier for you to cope with? I'm curious because I am not consistent in responding as I should to my H's issues even though I know what to do. This is something I am striving towards but I wonder if knowing the pattern helps you. That is very interesting about homecoming and not over sharing. This all sounds very familiar unfortunately for us both!


I hope you had a great/steady week and have a great weekend ahead! This journey is so winding and never ending sometimes but one of the plus sides (among the overwhelming down sides) is I feel like it has helped me understand many thinks about myself better.

—>I had already planned to go with a friend and certainly was not going to change my plans for him.<---

100% yes! Good for you. That's absolutely the right mindset.

In regards to that double date you went on, I try to reframe that sort of thing in my mind, it sounds like maybe you have to? That you can go and socialize as an individual, and enjoy it for what it is? But it can be a little weird feeling to think that the other couple may have a different perception of how your relationship really is. It probably also depends on the vibe you and H are giving off. Mine's generally much friendlier in front of others, to the point it can be galling at times.

Happy belated birthday! How was it? Hope it was good.

Rock brain- I like that and may have to borrow it. It's especially appropriate this week. I've come up against H's very rigid thinking (and low awareness), as well as that of his rigid family system.

On a possibly related note to that, I've been reading about damage to the amygdala in the brain, which is associated with things like borderline personality, alcohol use disorder, some dementias, and various other conditions. It fits H's issues almost exactly, and if that's what's going on, it's largely beyond his control. That's very hard to accept as a possibility.

It's good that you felt validated by your H about how dinner out felt. There's something about feeling like you're on the same page, even for a short time, and even if the subject isn't as positive as it could be.

The book sounds interesting. Will your H read it and get much out of it, do you think? At least you are getting something out of it.

Mine is completely closed-minded to recommendations from anyone else. If yours is open to that, well, that's something anyway.

The other day, someone pointed out that if H is incapable of loving himself at present, he's incapable of loving anyone else. I knew that… funny how easy that is to forget at times….

—->Do you think having predictability in your H's pattern makes it easier for you to cope with?<---

NO! Absolutely not. Lol. At his baseline, he seems to be angry and uncomfortable, so while the "seasonal" shifts have become predictable, his behavior beyond that is not predictable. In the euphoric phase he has bursts of high energy, talks faster than is easily understandable, paces around the house restlessly, sometimes exercises so intensely that he looks like he might hurt himself (a concerned neighbor approached me twice about that a few years ago), and then over top of that he has what looks like borderline mood shifts. In the dysphoric phase, he mumbles and talks slowly, has low energy, doesn't attempt to do much extra in the way of projects, can look very depressed at times, and on top of that he has what looks like borderline mood shifts.

Here's maybe a way to describe it… bipolar could be thought of as a smooth wavy line that slowly undulates up and then down over a centerline. Borderline is like an unpredictable, jagged line that shoots into points on either side of a baseline. With H, there's that bipolar/cyclothymic-like line that moves back and forth slowly, and then on top of that undulating line there's another line of sharp peaked spikes of mood up and down.

I very slightly prefer him when he's in the more depressed mode, because the hypomanic energy and near constant movement/pacing is exhausting for everyone in the household. But other than that, not much else is all that predictable. Whether euphoric or dysphoric, you never know what's going to set him off and if he's going to have an episode of being pissy and verbally aggressive, or withdrawn and not talk for days. That's part of the eggshell-walking life with a borderline type person– we say he's always 30 seconds from a meltdown, to remind ourselves that literally anything and everything has the potential to trigger him. To reiterate though, I don't know that it's comorbid borderline/bipolar, it's just what it looks like in the surface.

It's been a bad week here. I've endured 2 of his meltdowns this week. Handled one well, misstepped on the other. It was likely triggered by contact he had with his FOO and things going on with them, so it's a continuing issue (for him) at present. Despite it all, I'm doing okay. I'm largely detached, and able to emotionally regulate fairly quickly nowadays, but have some introspection to do about how to deal with him and just what kind of expectations might be reasonable (given that it's likely there are uncontrolled brain irregularities/damage). And more importantly, what I need to do to take care of myself. It's been a somewhat rough week.

I'll wrap it up there with apologies if it wasn't much help this week.

How has your week been? Hope it's been a stable one for you.

That is a good point, my H is not necessarily friendlier to me in front of others, definitely not unfriendly just same sort of ambivalence as every other day. So in that way it doesn't feel like we are putting on a show or anything so that part is a relief. My birthday was very nice with the kids and my friends. I did end up going to dinner w my H another night to celebrate and I did definitely struggle with it. Its not that I mind us going to dinner together necessarily, it just feels off to me to be like here is a person who made certain promises to me, who is now ambivalent because he in some crisis that I did not cause, but now I am pretending he is my real husband again? I don't know. Maybe I just need to work on letting go of the original expectation? I will say I am glad I have an appointment with my therapist this week to discuss this stuff.


I am also going to tackle the topic of communication with my therapist. My H just lacks a basic ability to communicate his wants, needs and more pertinent to this discussion, when things irritate him. We got into it a little bit this morning because yesterday during one of the birthday celebrations for my son, whose birthday was yesterday and we did a party for him yesterday as well, my H was so rude to me and I didn't understand why. Then this morning we had to go to my son's school to do a little birthday celebration and essentially on the way home I got told by him "why do I never have anything nice to say to him" and I think I made a conscious decision to engage with him and let it devolve into me telling him how I feel (which is NEVER a good idea these days) and then he ended up yelling at me which I am very uncomfortable with. But, I am proud of myself because after he calmed down I was able to say to him that the problem is that he doesn't tell me when things I do upset him. So he keeps it bottled up and then explodes at me and it feels like it comes from nowhere and it is always an overreaction. So it is really unfair to me in many ways and I told him so and that he needs to just tell me when things upset him so I can apologize and we can move on. Because of how he grew up and how stifled he was, I literally cannot predict what may trigger him. Sometimes it feels like it is EVERYTHING. But what good does it do if he doesn't tell me anything he feels and then is a jerk to me out of nowhere? Anyways, I am not happy I engaged with him because I know I shouldn't, but I am happy I was able to sort of try to teach him how to communicate better. He just doesn't know how to. I also acknowledge it is SO difficult to be in my position, and that he may never acknowledge that to me, and that is okay because I know it. And, I think it is even okay when I am mean back to my H and make comments like he does to me. I always say to him that I am a person too, which is true and he forgets because he does hold me to an impossible standard. Sometimes I wonder how much can a person expect to put up with? I imagine you have felt the same at times.


Back to what you were saying about your H, that is such a good explanation you have that really highlights your struggle with your H too. That does make sense what you are saying, I cannot imagine it is easy to live with someone who is hypomanic and always moving around, it would totally be exhausting. Does he have any insight into this behavior when he is that way? I am just curious because at least for me sometimes it helps me when my H acknowledges his behavior even if he will do nothing or can do nothing to change it. I am so sorry that you've endured a bad week but I am glad you are coping as best you can. It is hard to keep those expectations reasonable even if you know who you are dealing with and even if part or all of it is not entirely their fault or within their control. It is sort of like what I was saying above, we are still people too and in such a hard position no matter the reason. So, all that to say I am glad you are cutting yourself some slack and doing what you need to do to take care of yourself. I hope you keep doing it!


I sure hope this past week was better for you and a stable one. I'm hoping for an easy week for us both!

Hey again.

Hope this week has been a decent one for you.

It sounds like you had a well celebrated birthday, all things considered.

Maybe it's good in some ways that your H is at least consistent in his behavior, whether alone or with others. Not that it's less hurtful or confusing, but at least maybe you can guess at what you'll have to deal with? Hopefully not too many surprises?

—>Maybe I just need to work on letting go of the original expectation?<---

Yeah, this is tough because it's your expectation and not an unreasonable one. But, obviously, if he can't/won't be that, you can't make him be that.

I've sort of taken to addressing things at face value- almost like you would with a stranger- and back to that 'actions speak louder than words.' That's not to say that if he acts nice for an hour everyone accommodates him, but rather to not overthink the perpetual ups and downs too much. He's got problems right now, and I'm just going with the flow as best as I can. Think about relaxing in an inner tube on a river and letting the current take you along to wherever you'll end up downstream. You don't have to make a lot of effort, and the only person you need to manage in the current, is you (and sometimes dependent children who can't always manage for themselves). Is that a crummy analogy? It's adapted from anxiety work…

Hopefully your therapist has some ideas for things that may work in regards to better communicating with him. You've come up with some very good methods already, from what you've shared.

I'm sorry you got looped into one of those draining arguments. That sounds familiar. Was the argument you had one of those circular ones? Where you feel like he's pushing you around and around in an attempt to get you to go where he wants? Mine loves to do that, and will just not quit as long as he thinks he might find a way to "win". (To me, we should be making a team effort, but for him it's win-lose - it helps to be able to see that with increasing clarity).

Some disordered people, especially those who are unable to connect with their feelings, will also push those closest to them into the emotions that they, themselves, can't express. So if they're angry (or sad, or hurt, or frustrated, etc) in their minds, a good course of action is to make someone close to them angry, so they've essentially displaced the anger (or whatever emotion they can't allow themselves to feel) onto someone else - like passing a hot potato.

Anyway, good for you for staying calm and holding your ground. That's not always easy. And if the above resonates with you, I've found that if you're able to refrain from the negative emotions he's pushing you towards, then he's still stuck with them instead of you doing him the favor of taking the hot potato. Staying calm and rational also helps dissipate any "I win, you lose" dynamic.

—>Sometimes I wonder how much can a person expect to put up with?<---

That's the individual million dollar question - it's your call when you've hit your limit. And also your call as to what you do about it.

Here's something I've found helpful, which is to approach the situation as something that you're choosing to do for a reason. Whether it's the kids, finances, your concern for him, your belief in commitment, something you need from your current situation… there's a reason you're staying. You can think something along the lines of "I'm choosing to stay because it makes sense for ME in this moment" or maybe it's "I'm choosing to be here in an effort to help someone who isn't currently able to help himself." Whatever the reason is, empower yourself to the choice(s). And when a choice no longer works for you, you'll shift to a different choice, kwim?

In situations like ours, people often won't understand why we're remaining where we are. It doesn't matter if they understand or not, but we probably should for our own sake. You can undoubtedly list a number of reasons why you should leave the situation, but can you define why you're remaining, and why that's important? Whyever you're staying, and putting up with the things you are, it might be helpful or important for you to be able to define it.

And never forget that you're entitled to change your mind at any time.

You asked if H is aware of himself- he has moments of awareness that seem generally fleeting. For example, those irrational borderline-esque episodes where he misinterprets and overreacts? Sometimes, a week or two after the fact, he'll admit to being aware that he reacted to something that only existed inside his head. Not always though; there are lots of times he's convinced he's done nothing at all wrong, or that the problem was with the other person. But even when he admits to the problem, it gets swept under the rug almost immediately and isn't talked about again. So it's like at times he can see how he is, but the shame (or whatever) is too great for him to remain in a self aware state.

Despite the recent issues, I've been able to detach and distance emotionally better than ever before. Given the current drama going on in his FOO, it's become frighteningly easy to see where much of the dysfunction/disorder likely stems from. It's like standing off to one side watching a play that makes so much sense, and realizing that it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It's rather freeing. So this week it feels like my feet are back under me in a little more solid way- at least for the time being.

I hope that you are doing well, and that you will be heading into a weekend that's got some fun and relaxation waiting for you.

You are totally right about that. There is definitely a consistency and even though I do not particularly care for how he is acting, it certainly does not change at all. So I suppose there is some comfort in that.


I think that is really good advice you have to not read too much into things and to try and take things at face value, I know we've talked about this before that actions speak louder than words and there is something to that. And, if I can remember it and implement it I think I will do better. I am going to work on that and I think it will help because I tend to not do this and instead sort of lump every action in with this history and try to analyze it in that context and I think that is not helping anyone. Plus, as is so often the case with many men, sometimes my husband's actions have no actual meaning to them and are just based on how he feels at the time he makes them. So reading into them is not helpful.


I also found what you said about reaching my breaking point helpful. You are totally right that in every case there are reasons people are staying and I don't need to judge my own reasons just like I would not judge other people's reasons. I am going to work on empowering myself to that choice as well. I think so much of this is about mindset and it is so helpful when I remember all of this advice together because it really puts things in the best way possible and then puts me in the best frame of mind possible. I can totally define why I have chosen to stay in my marriage at this time and why it is important to me and there are so many reasons right now, many of which you listed. And I do think it is okay that some are having to do with our relationship and what I think marriage means and some have to do with practical implications like finances and the kids. And the combination of those things at this time add up to me wanting to remain married. Maybe one day the equation will change and then I will deal with that then. Sometimes I just find it helpful to have someone else who is in a somewhat similar situation validate my feelings so I appreciate that.


That makes sense about the self awareness and limitations with your H. I was just curious because sometimes it can be such a relief when they acknowledge their behavior, even if it is short lived. I am so glad you are able to detach right now. I really do feel like that has to be such a difficult skill to learn so good for you. I find that FOO drama so scary and interesting from an outsiders perspective and feel the same way as you. My H's parents have been on an extended vacation for the past three weeks and since they live in the same city as us it has been AMAZING to have them gone. This is true even though my MIL is very helpful with the kids and everything, it is still SO MUCH EASIER to have them gone. There is a peace around that does not exist when they are here.


My therapist had such good ideas to help with communication and even some will translate over to my middle child who also has similar issues to my H in that these are people you can't correct or hint they made a mistake in any way because they are otherwise so hard on themselves. She had some really good ideas at how this can work and I even wrote them down so I can implement them. She also had some ideas about how to prevent my H from exploding since he can't communicate with me and things like that. I honestly wish we had seen her together, but if my H ever wants to actually check back into our marriage, these are ideas that would REALLY help. And, on a separate note, she helped me identify my own core issues which apparently almost has but you can get rid of them if you have a good relationship with your parents as an adult then you "heal them". I find all of that so fascinating.


I am coming off of a very busy weekend so there is not much time to interact and at this point I am totally okay with that. My H will more or less do the logistics with the kids I need him to, and even if he doesn't do them in the most connected way, I am glad he is at least functioning enough to spend time with the kids and help me out, so there's my re framing there.

I hope you are having a good start to the week!

It's good to have other people to compare notes with, understand, be understood, and not feel so crazy and alone as you try and sort these things out, isn't it?

Sometimes it helps to just vent, so you can clear your mind and get on with the day.

Defining what keeps you in place is good, then you're focused on the benefits more than the detriments, you know? It can also help you to focus more on yourself and what you need out of the situation at any given point in time.

Each morning, I try to come up with something to do that day that's productive and forward thinking/moving. It might not be possible to significantly improve things as they stand now, but what if you can strive towards just a little bit better? Maybe it adds up, or moves things in a better direction, over time? (Even if only for you)

Isn't that interesting how much easier things can be when certain people/family members are absent? There can be some clarity in that. Is your H different with his parents gone? Do you see the effect on him? Is he able to see it? Is there a specific reason you think it's easier when they aren't around? Is it just the energy they impart?

For years we would go visit family for the day (mine and his in the same town), and the next day I'd say I had a "family hangover." It wasn't a joke, it literally felt like a hangover or the flu or something. Now, understanding more, it's a little easier to see how the exhaustion comes from the constant emotional-energy-ping-pong that they engage in.

—>in that these are people you can't correct or hint they made a mistake in any way because they are otherwise so hard on themselves. ←–

Very well said. This is a mistake I made time and again for a long time. He *might* be able to recognize what he's doing and that it's harmful to himself and others, but the shame is so great that he has to block it from himself, or rationalize it away. It won't get fixed until (and if) he comes to that point on his own.

The things that your therapist is helping you with in regards to your own core issues sounds good, and probably a productive place to put your energy. We end up in relationship dynamics that we do for a reason, right? And the only person we can fix is ourselves…

October has continued to be a weird and chaotic rollercoaster. Unfortunately, I found myself sucked back into a few old, bad habits, despite him being away for a few days. It may not be in a direct way, but I became more focused on him, his behavior, and his problems than is healthy. I need to brush up and double down on some codependency work. It's challenging, because he seems to actively attempt to manipulate me into his vortex often times, and maintaining an equilibrium of not getting drawn in past the centerline can be tough. Add to this that at one point he was very upset and able to recognize some of the cognitive losses and problems he's experiencing— it's hard to not jump in and try to "fix" things for him when it looks more like brain damage. But fixing can end up being code for enabling, and if done incorrectly, he doesn't have to face the truth of his problems- because I do it for him. Yeah, he's a mess and not always very nice, but there's room for improvement in myself.

Guess that's this week. I hope that you've been doing well. Sorry if this is a bit disjointed. The October rollercoaster has been something else… but it's come with a lot of new clarity that I'm still working to digest.

I'm going to chime in here with a few sentences. This is what life experience has taught me. Whoever came up with the idea that we are supposed to stay with and in love with the SAME person for our entire lives must have been CRAZY. Somewhere along the line things get boring for one or the other. People " fall out " of love.
How many marriages go 50-60 years without straying ? That's human nature. But outright open marriages are bull****. The stray cat usually comes back home. Make it work or walk. Life is to short.

moodyblue83, in a more ideal world, I'd agree with the sentiment. For some people, the timing and other issues might not make it so easy. Things like the current high cost of living, expensive and unavailable housing in many areas of the country, other financial considerations, children who are better off in the current situation versus the next likely alternative, health considerations of one or both people --- anyhow, there can be a lot of moving parts that can leave some people feeling stuck for the time being and trying to make the best of that. But ultimately, you're probably right about the bigger picture.