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Default Jun 03, 2022 at 10:19 AM
  #1
I really hate perfectionism but it's so hard to break free from spending too much time on doing things. Initially I thought it might be fear based, to control so that something bad will happen, but I think it's more complicated.

It's so horrible. Even for the tiniest dumbest things I can spend days and it wastes a lot of time. Some people might think it's a silly question and would just say to stop it, but it's a very intense overwhelming desire. I'm not sure if it's rooted in fear or not. If anyone has any input on what it could be and possible ways to over come then I would greatly appreciate it.
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Default Jun 03, 2022 at 12:00 PM
  #2
I suffer from that too, so my heart goes out to you.

Since I am not a medical professional I cannot offer anything authoritative but only my own fallible reflections as a philosophy graduate student.

Perfectionism equates goodness with perfection. Therefore, what is not perfect is seen as somehow bad. This reduces the wide range of values to only two: the perfect and everything else.

This terrible reductionism is unfair to the scope and range of real values. Perhaps I might try to illustrate this.

A student once came to see me and said she was a failure, a loser and a waste of oxygen. So I asked her what happened. She said that she failed to get straight A's for the semester.

So I mentioned to her that there have been a couple of men in the last 100 years who caused the destruction of tens of millions of men, women and children through campaigns of genocide and forced starvation . . . men like Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse Tung.

Then I asked her if her failure to get straight A's caused the destruction of tens of millions of people. No. Did it cause the destruction of millions or hundreds of thousands of people? No. Did it cause the destruction of tens of thousands, thousands or hundreds of people? No. Did it cause the destruction of 10 or even one person? No.

So I told her . . . then how "bad" is your failure to get straight A's seen in the wide horizon of human values? It is very, very, very, very, very, very far from that kind of "failure."

None of us are Infinite, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, all-perfect beings. We each have little three pound brains that do a pretty amazing job most of the time.

As something finite, this brain sometimes makes mistakes. Most of the time it does not set out to make a make a mistake as though it woke up in the morning and said: "Today I plan to make a huge mistake."

When one is a perfectionist, one robs reality of its scope and depth. That is both an error and an injustice to reality. If only the perfect is good, then only the perfect is worthy of appreciation. Since nothing earthly is perfect, this would mean that nothing here is worthy of appreciation.

To live always thinking: "could be better but is not better" is a road to unhappiness because it blocks out the other way of looking at things: "could be worse but isn't worse, thank goodness."

Perhaps humans are genetically programmed to be dissatisfied and gravitate towards perfectionism. Dissatisfaction has its value. It led humans to create electric lights, polio vaccines, refrigerators, heaters, air conditioners and many, many things. But to get "stuck" in the "could be better but isn't better frame of mind robs one and robs reality of its richness.

Sometimes parental programming has a place in this. "If I am perfect, mommy and daddy will love me." "Mommy and daddy will love me only if I am perfect. If I am less than perfect I am basically defective, a loser, a failure as a human being."

Often parents instill this belief in children because they don't know any better and because that is how they were raised.

But I think the fight against perfectionism is a noble effort although difficult to be sure. One does not do it just for oneself. One does it for others too and in fairness to reality which deserve better than the perfectionist attitude.

These are just my fallible thoughts. Perhaps I am wrong. I am often wrong about things. In any case, I can truly identify with you and your struggle since I was raised to be a perfectionist. Hopefully others here will have better words for you than my poor words.
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Default Jun 03, 2022 at 12:13 PM
  #3
Hi, Phoenix! I have had this problem for much of my life. I'm still that way with some things. I'm pretty sure I know where it comes from. I can relate very much to the part where we spend way too much time trying to get it right (and we are such a critic until we get there.) Actually, though, I have hardly ever resented the amount of time I spend on whatever it is, no matter how small the endeavor. I usually enjoy the process. Do you feel that way, too? For times when I want to lighten up about how perfect something should be, I try to remind myself about what I see is normal & expected from most people.

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Default Jun 03, 2022 at 05:39 PM
  #4
@Yaowen Thanks! I found your post to be very interesting. That definitely puts perfectionism into perspective. Philosophy is very interesting. It's also interesting that dissatisfaction brought about the invention of the light bulb and other inventions. But sometimes I wonder why that's better than how the animals live. I have this drive to improve, which also brings at least some tension, stress, and always a lot of anxiety, especially when building things as I hope it will work. It takes me away from just living in the present. Is it worth it? We see such a high percentage of humans depressed. Then I look at the nature people, the animals and how they live in the present. It's like they're masters at living in the present. My therapists recommend mindfulness, which is putting oneself in the present. It all makes me wonder if humans kind of got it all wrong. Maybe all of our human enduvors will lead us in a giant circle back to where we started, living in the present.

@Breaking Dawn I agree that I can see it as fun when I look back. One thought I had is that balance is important. If I can accept who I am, someone who likes to improve things, it would make life more enjoyable.
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Default Jun 03, 2022 at 07:08 PM
  #5
Having a drive to improve is a very positive thing and leads to growth.I have that drive myself.I always try to come up with better or more creative ways to do things.I think there is no such thing as perfection.IMO.
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Default Jun 03, 2022 at 08:36 PM
  #6
@stahrgeyzer

I thought of something else . . . The famous psychiatrist, Aaron T. Beck, wondered why there is often a disparity between a person's situation and their ability to be generally at peace and have a joy of living. This perplexed him for some time. Sometimes people who seem to have everything are miserable and people who are in generally miserable conditions seem to have a joy of living.

Beck thought he made a breakthrough when he discovered the power that "expectations" have over people. He thought that people process information through the lenses of their expectations.

Certain kinds of expectations tend to engender a certain definite set of moods and emotions. If a person is a perfectionist, for example , they tend to "expect" perfection or near perfection of themselves, others, things and events in the world. Since things are never totally perfect, this "expectation" tends to generate feelings like disappointment, aggravation, frustration, anger, sadness. joyless striving, and in extreme cases, hopelessness.

It is not that the world is making such individuals feel these moods and emotions, it is that their expectations about the world that are behind these moods and feelings.

Beck believed it would be odd if perfectionism did not generate these kinds of moods since for a perfectionist, everything is seen through the lens of "it could be better, but it isn't better" or the stronger "it should or must be better but isn't better."

Beck found that in certain parts of the world where people are quite impoverished and in poor situations and circumstances there can often be found many, many individuals who are generally at peace about things, who generally have a joy of living.

He discovered that such people "expect" things to be imperfect so they are not so hard on themselves or others. They generally see things through the lens of "could be worse, but isn't worse." This attitude tends to generate a different set of emotions and moods: peace, relaxation, appreciation, feeling lucky, gratitude, joy . . . in other words . . . happy moods and feelings.

A person is not always aware of the expectations that they burden reality with. It is almost like a deep computer program that is running in the background. Perfectionists process information this way: "If I was perfect, I could be happy. If he, she, it, they were perfect, I could be happy. If things and events in the world were perfect, I could be happy."

The faulty logic is this: If things were perfect, I would be happy. Things are not perfect, I cannot be happy. But there is a hidden premise here: I expect things to be perfect and will not allow myself to rest or be happy until they are perfect.

I think the ancient Stoic philosopher, Epictetus put this very well: "We do not see the world the way it is, we see the world the way we are."

The world is just the world. It just is. Some things can be changed. Some can't. Often a good change has unforeseen negative consequences because the finite can never be made Infinite. Flaws are moved around, not eliminated.

There is an ancient Chinese story about a sage who encountered a boy on a beach who was crying. When the sage asked the boy why he was crying, the boy said: "I put some red ink in the ocean and now the ocean is ruined." This is perfectionism.

I notice this a lot in journalism. Since nothing is absolutely perfect, it is always possible to find a flaw in someone or something. Political parties use this to constantly generate moods of outrage in their audience. Since nothing is every totally perfect this gives journalists way of always generating some "bad news" that their audience craves.

Badness is relatively rare, which is why it is often newsworthy. Today a plane crashed, a train derailed, there was a tornado here, someone went out and did a monstrous thing. We are subjected to this all the time if we are consumers of news.

What the news never says is this: today 10,000 aircraft took off and landed safely. Today 99% of trains did not derail. Today most of the earth was not ravaged by a tornado. Today one billion young people went to school without doing horrendous acts of violence. Today most people did not commit a violent felony . . . most people being billions of people.

Because such things are generally the norm, they don't make the news. We say: "Those things don't count." But we fail to see that those things don't count because we don't count them. I think this is what Beck was trying to get at.

Beck believed that "expectations" are very strong things. Not perhaps as strong as demands, but harder than wishes. To wish is a softer approach than an expectation. "I wish people drove more courteously." A frustrated wish is not as devastating as a frustrated expectation.

A wish is soft enough that it can lead people to take steps to change things that they can change. A demand like "perfectionism" can lead to inertia and procrastination. If I can't do it perfectly, why try?

Perhaps this is what is behind that old saying: "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

What do you think?
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Default Jun 05, 2022 at 11:39 AM
  #7
@Yaowen Thanks again for the wealth of information. I'm still pondering upon all of it. In the travel videos I've watched on YouTube there is something that's made me wonder and that's how happy a lot of people are in countries of poverty. Of course it doesn't mean that people will be happy simply based on how low there expectations are. There are some areas in poor countries where it's extremely dangerous. For example certain cities in south america where there drug wars. I've noticed a lot of people look dead, emotionless, and depressed even though they have no expectations.

My overall level of expectation for myself and others seems to be high. It's extremely high in certain areas. Maybe there's a thing called expectation spectrum? I haven't spent much time thinking about it, but two extremely high expectations I have on myself and the entire world is animal cruelty & slavery. That alone kind of forces me to have an abnormally high dislike for humans. Even in early childhood it would make me so sad when family members would take a ride in a horse carriage. I have horrible memories at knott's berry farm watching my relatives ride away in a carriage, just watching those poor horses struggle to move the heavy carriage. A few more are global deforestation, pollution, and careless acts that contribute to climate change. I even remember as a teenager how I would go through such great lengths to use less water; brushing my teeth, putting plastic bottles in toilet water contain so it uses less water. And then there are other areas of expectations that are based on lack of care. For example all of the train tracks that cross roads. If the government officials who have to power truly cared they would build a bridge or tunnel for the train so thousands of people in cars don't have to sit there stuck waiting a long time, sometimes over 10 minutes. Sure, it's politics and corruption, but humanity has the potential of being so much better. It's countless little things that I see every time I go out or watch a video that bothers me, probably all based on high expectations.

That being said, isn't there two sides? With high expectations comes stress and all of that, but I just learned about Expectancy theory. A quote, "Expectancy Theory basically states that a person behaves the way they do because they are motivated to select that behavior ahead of others because of what they expect the result of that behavior to be." Higher expectations can lead to better work. It's probably more complex than that. It reminds me an very important thing, balance. If my expectations are too high, then I get stress and become a perfectionist, spend too much time doing things. On the other hand, if my expectations are too low, then I tend to do very little. So the million dollar question is, where's the balance, or is there a happy balance?
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Default Jun 05, 2022 at 01:35 PM
  #8
I have low expectations for other people & high ones for myself. And the reward that matters to me is the way I feel while I'm trying whatever, like feeling the pleasure of the experience, & I felt gratitude for my employment & wanted to express that by trying & hoping to do my very best. When I make a mistake, it usually feels like anxiety & sadness. But I try to say I'm only disappointed.

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Default Jun 07, 2022 at 06:39 AM
  #9
I suffer from perfectionism, and the way I try to overcome it is by telling myself I am doing my best. Even on days when I am not at my best, I tell. myself that I am doing the very best I can, and that that is good enough. It's when I don't try hard enough that I can get down on myself, or when I make a big mistake. I think it's a matter of accepting where you are at, at all times, and feeling that it is good enough.

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Default Jun 08, 2022 at 01:07 PM
  #10
I the CBT course that I attended a while back, perfectionism was defined as something slightly different to how it's generally perceived. When it comes to a psychological diagnosis, it is more complex.

Perfectionism – Therapy for Overcoming Perfectionism.

I recognized myself in the clinical description. I have been working on these rather negative and debilitating aspects of my diagnosis ever since. I do think that it can arise from living in an atmosphere where perfection was expected and demanded of children. That was certainly true in my and my brother's case. Nothing less was acceptable.

It was stressful to live that way, and further complicated an already difficult childhood, and my young adult years.

But you can do self-therapy (I found several books and audio books just by typing "Perfectionism from a psychological standpoint" in the search engine), and of course, most qualified therapists should be familiar with the topic. I believe our facilitator assured us it it one of the areas in which a person can rather quickly turn things around for themselves, and it can make a huge difference in a fairly small amount of time.

I know that being made aware of it has helped me enormously.

Best of luck with it.
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Default Jun 08, 2022 at 07:11 PM
  #11
The mistakes you make in life reminds you that no one is perfect. The more you make mistakes the more you start to accept them. I went to school for engineering and I made lots of mistakes in college getting just average grades. But I still graduated.

I just painted a guitar and I made a few mistakes.

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Default Jul 19, 2022 at 12:58 PM
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I can add this: people often call something perfectionism when it is not. Oftentimes it is something else. Sometimes people are just detailed-focused instead of perfectionists.
Isn't perfectionism more about anxiety than simply being detail-focused?
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Thumbs up Jul 19, 2022 at 07:55 PM
  #13
Thank you so much for joining us, @Mrtulip! So many things you say seem so right. But I feel really weird anyway. Please keep posting here?

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Default Jul 20, 2022 at 03:57 AM
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Dawn View Post
Thank you so much for joining us, @Mrtulip! So many things you say seem so right. But I feel really weird anyway. Please keep posting here?
I should probably add this:
I have been taught that we must look for the reason(s) behind a certain behaviour. I mean, social phobia/anxiety is something I don't stuggle with. I do find some social situations really dificult. What I can say is that exposure training like they do in CBT won't be very helpful in my case. For me it is ASD and not anxiety that is the issue. Here I need to say that you can have both ASD and social anxiety at the same time but it seems to be not that common.
Anyway, I am sometimes detail-oriented and have been called a perfectionist. I had a piano teacher who told me that I am a perfectionist. She never 5old me how she defined the term but I don't think she was right.
When I talked with an expert in ASD he said that it is not perfectionism. People just need to focus on different things.
I sometimes get stuck due to detail-focus.

"Perfectionism is often defined as the need to be or appear to be perfect, or even to believe that it's possible to achieve perfection."
goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/issues/perfectionism

"Perfectionism is basically the flip side of catastrophizing, with a side of control freak. Let’s face it–not a positive character trait."
musingsofanaspie.com/2013/11/11/practically-perfect-in-every-way/

I do think that one can have both ASD and perfectionism but that's not me.

I don't really care about being perfect. I find it ok if I am not prefect. I just happen to get stuck when I see some details. It is more about how I understand details.
I am no expert in this subject.
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