[phoenix7]

I have a question... are we responsible for others actions ...... e.g., if I walk down a dark alley instead of going down a lighted street and get attacked ...is it partly ... my fault cos I chose to go there? or all my fault cos if i hadnt gone i wouldnt have been attacked - or not my fault cos they shouldnt have attacked me .... but then thats not dealing with the reality of life is it - dark alley = danger...what do you think

somthing that came up for me recently and I would be interested to hear what people think....

P7

[possum220]

To answer your question in a nutshell we can only ever be responsible for our own actions, not those of others.

Yes all of us make mistakes from time to time. However a mistake does not make us responsible for the actions of others.
Aaccepting the reality of that can be a bitter pill to swallow.

Just my two cents worth.

Possum

For me it is ....

In an ideal world a woman could wear what she wants and not be attacked however we know this is not an ideal world so you choose to dress how you wish but increase your chances of being attacked .

My thoughts and I know others will disagree with me, however it is what I will be teaching my daughter.

[phoenix7]

I guess I'll give a little more info in case people get the wrong idea that I am siding with the attacker.

Short version with just the facts

T - asked me not to hurt myself - I agreed

I thought I deserved to be hurt but had made a promise

so I went walking where it was dangerous - thinking if someone else hurt me it would not be breaking my word to T (yes I now know how crazy that thinking was )

I wasnt hurt - nothing happened - I think it was also to prove I was not a coward to myself cos I ran when the guy that attacked me attacked me.

now I am thinking if I had been attacked would it have been my fault cos I put myself in harms way - I would also have affected someone elses life because they had attacked me ..... so I would have been doubly to blame ...

I realise this was a truly stupid thing to do .... but I would be interested in your views....

I dont see it as your fault if you get attacked however putting yourself in danger is rather a silly thing to do, if you harm yourself you have a limit as to how far you go.

When you are attacked you dont. The attacker has all the control not you.

(not that I am agreeing OR disagreeing with SH as I know very little about it)

[possum220]

You asked that question without revealing the full facts and my answer is the same for SH - you are responsible for what you do to yourself. (when you are in a cognitive state). If you are dissociated that's a different matter. As you are unaware of your actions at the time.

Maybe you should be chatting about this to your T? You seem to be want answers without revealing the full facts. You also went against his wishes in rather an elaborate fashion.

Possum

[Timgt5]

As an adult you are ultimately in charge of you, what actions you take, what things you ingest, etc...

There are degrees of risk in all choices, but in your scenario it is your assailant is at fault. As a libertarian my fundimental moral belief in a nutshell is that you have a right to do anything you want so long as exercising those rights does not impinge upon the rights of others. You can stand around and swing your arm all day long but if you hand comes in contact with another person's face then you are in the wrong. In other words, don't hit people and don't take touch their stuff without their consent.

That being said I would hope of this happened to you or anyone else that a lesson to be learned is that YOU and YOU alone are responsible for your well being. If you choose to put yourself in a high risk area, then it is up to you to be adequately trained and equipped to deal with those who may seek to harm you. I am not saying that the police are not needed, they most certainly are, but in the split second someone is coming at you with a knife or other weapon in hand and there is not a police person around, you have to be prepared to put your right to live above another and live with the consequences afterwards.

[phoenix7]

I have spoken to my T and dealt with why I did this and what it meant - i gave the extra info to give context to the question - (by the way when I was attacked it was at work and I did not put myself in harms way - far from it - I was attempting to calm things down with some others.- and when he came at me I ran )

I am not looking for solutions for me - I have worked those out - and I know how incredibly stupid I was to do this (but also incredibly desperate - whicih has passed)

the whole question... is confusing to me .... and interesting as to who would have been to blame.. usually I would say no-one - but if the person puts themselves in danger.... this would also relate to someone who takes a short cut through a dark alley instead of taking the long way home...

its a general question and not about me ok .... I prob should have given this as a hypothetical.. so can we start again please - although I thankyou for your answers so far

lets say the person is Agnes - (sorry any Agnes's out there)

Agnes knew what she was doing - she was feeling really bad and put herself in harms way - lets say she did get attacked - so has she changed the other persons life to the detriment (as well as her own) - maybe they wouldnt have attacked anyone that night - maybe it would have been a turning point for them.... who knows....

if she wasnt attacked - then she put herself in harms way and hopefully learned a lesson

Jane walks down the same alley for different reasons - its a short cut - she knows its not as safe as her usual way but she wants to get home.... she gets attacked.... does she bear the same responsibility as Agnes?

its just somthing I have been thinking about and would be interestd in your views - thanks

P7

[AAAAA]

I agree with what was previously stated, you are only responsible for your own actions. But like Tishie I teach my children to be safe rather than sorry, it's sad but this is reality. Parking under a street light, knowing whose going to be at a party before you go, having a buddy that you stick together with can help decrease your odds of being attacked but not prevent it. "Normal" criminals (if there is such an animal) look for easy prey and there is some degree of protection, but for those twisted individuals that inflict pain for the sake of it, I don't think you can prevent that at all.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

... I went walking where it was dangerous - thinking if someone else hurt me it would not be breaking my word to T

It sounds to me as though regardless of "agency" -- of who might hurt you, or why -- you went actively cruising for an incident. I'd call it only a technicality that you weren't literally hurting yourself but only fishing for someone else to possibly do it to you.

(I'm skipping over something that I'll get back to in a minute.)

now I am thinking if I had been attacked would it have been my fault cos I put myself in harms way - I would also have affected someone elses life because they had attacked me ..... so I would have been doubly to blame

Fault and blame are legal-moral judgments. I find them worse than useless for sorting out what actually happened. Useless, because they don't help you at all to discover where you were/are coming from; worse than useless, because you can't proceed with the sorting out until you lift, sweep or blow off whatever judgments and other stuff you've piled on top of what actually happened.

Now back to this:

I think it was also to prove I was not a coward to myself....

----- Not hijacking your thread, just adding a longish sharesie. -----

When I was 17 I was focusing a great deal on separating from my parents and learning to make my own choices. I wasn't doing this just for my own amusement or for lack of anything better to do; it seemed to me that my parents had been steering me in directions that flatly did not suit me and that it was past time to break free of their influence by any means necessary.

I was already aware that I was fearful and didn't tolerate pain well. I'd also begun to notice, however, that my parents had been making use of my fear to control me. "Wear your hat and scarf," they'd tell me, "or you'll get sick, and the doctor will stick you in the *** with a needle."

I realized that if I were to try doing something that went against my fears, I had no idea how far I'd get before feeling overwhelmed, losing my nerve, and giving up. Giving in to those fears was already costing me so much, though, that I found myself wanting to put the matter to a test.

I had a bicycle and would often ride it around for a few hours after school. In the course of looking for interesting places to ride and the best ways to get there, I discovered a woodsy suburban road that ran steeply downhill to a stop sign where it merged into another road. I was a little nervous going down it the first time, unsure if my brakes (and my grip on them) would be enough to stop me short of the stop sign. There were more than enough trees and bushes on either side of the road so that I couldn't see approaching cars, nor they me, until I was right at the intersection and coming out of the stop sign.

The second time I went there, I'd already decided I wanted to put my courage (or something) to the test. I coasted down the hill without even trying to stop at the bottom, and didn't look to see whether there were any cars coming until I was already entering the other road at speed. It turned out that there weren't. I'm not sure whether I tried that more than once, but I'm sure it wasn't more than twice.
/ (All clear)

The conclusion I took away with me was that if I was actually willing to risk getting killed, there really were some things that were more important to me than fear and I apparently did have some choice of what I was going to be afraid of. Throughout my teens, I'd also been prone to worrying that if I had bad luck, even something as trivial as missing a bus, it might be a sign of divine displeasure for having done something wrong. In this case, having lucked out and not gotten into an accident, I may very well have thought that fortune was smiling on me and I had to be doing something right.

----- Unhijacking your thread, in the event that I really did hijack it -----

I'm not sure why, but your account of putting yourself in harm's way happened to remind me of this. Do you see any connection?

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

Agnes knew what she was doing - she was feeling really bad and put herself in harms way ...

Jane walks down the same alley for different reasons - its a short cut - she knows its not as safe as her usual way but she wants to get home.... she gets attacked.... does she bear the same responsibility as Agnes?

I'd prefer to split that into two entirely different issues:

1. Agnes would do well to notice that she was going down that alley to expose herself to risk for whatever reason. Jane would do well to notice that she was willing to expose herself to risk to get home the quickest way. I don't see either as better or worse, more responsible or less; they're just different.

2. In this hypothetical example, I'd be willing to say that they both bear responsibility for the choices they made -- and even before that, for the priorities that led them to make those choices. I'm thinking, though, of "responsibility" as something entirely different from fault or blame. If either J. or A. had chosen not to go down that alley and there had been different consequences, whether "good," "bad," or imperceptible, they would have been "responsible" for their choice in exactly the same way.

I could, if I chose (too late, I did choose!) argue that I was 100% responsible for reading this story, for creating or re-creating those two characters Agnes and Jane, and for (my understanding of) what happened to them. You could likewise argue that you were 100% responsible for creating the characters, the situation and the outcome -- and our two points of view could coexist without any conflict whatever.

BTW, I don't expect everyone to agree with me here but I do expect them to take responsibility for not agreeing.

[phoenix7]

Thanks AAAA, I agree you have to teach children the reality of the situation without trying to scare or bias them in the process - their safety is imperative.

FooZe, yes I see the similarity in your example and mine - so no hijack occurred , I'm only going to comment on the Agnes and Jane thing cos thats what this should have been about and I thinnk I mudied the waters by trying to clear it a bit soooo....

yep Agnes and Jane both bear responsibility for thier actions and so would the attacker if they were attacked - I guess this clears up what I needed to hear - I agree we have to take responsibility for our actions - and the attacker would too (whether anyone would or not is open to debate)

I love the last line of your post but am too hazy to get it to add here FooZe -

take care one and all P7

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

I agree we have to take responsibility for our actions - and the attacker would too (whether anyone would or not is open to debate)

"Have to" (take responsibility) could mean different things and I wouldn't know until you said more, which you had in mind at any given time.

For one example: if the attacker were to get caught, presumably the legal system would be leaning pretty hard on him (or her) to confess, show remorse, make restitution, and whatever else might represent responsibility in that particular arena. "You have to take responsibility" (or we'll make you wish you had).

For another example, if someone who did get attacked were to ensconce herself/himself in the position of victim -- "It wasn't my fault, I was just minding my own business, somebody owes me big time for this!" -- they'd of course be denying responsibility for whatever choices they'd made to get themselves into that situation. They wouldn't, strictly speaking, have to take responsibility either... unless, of course, they wanted to gain a better understanding of, and some say in, the choices they were making.

And yes, I wouldn't expect someone to stay in the attacker business long if they were at all interested in accepting responsibility.

[phoenix7]

taking responsibility for walking down the dark alley is what I meant -

and I guees the we was I would take responsibility.... hmmm everytime I post I muddy the waters more dont I

I guess Im just very confused... confusing !!!!!

do attackers take responsibility... and if they did would it make a difference..... dunno - some people may feel better knowing that their attacker is sorry and people can change........

I dont think a sorry would work for me.

I was SA and can honestly say nothing but his death will make me feel better......

Hugs to anyone who needs them .

[phoenix7]

and sometimes even that does not release you......

even though you thought it would...

hugs taken and some more sent back

(((Tishie))))

I think you have a point ...... .

[Pup]

Sometimes, you cannot be held accountable for your actions if you are in a disturbed, distressed state of mind.

[phoenix7]

interesting point pupp, I agree in principle,

some people may have circumstances that would make it so that they would not be held responsible - would they then feel responsible when they were no longer disturbed and distressed?

Did they stay in a situaution that made them that way when they could have left or because they could not leave because there were no other alternatives.... and they were trapped.....

if someone attacked you and you ended them in the ensuing fight are you responsible for their death - yes - would you feel responsible..... think that comes down to the individual..... should you feel responsible.....

on the other hand ... someone attacks their partner who is leaving them because they are disturbed and distressed by this .... same questions apply..... purely hypothetical ok..

[Pup]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

interesting point pupp, I agree in principle,

some people may have circumstances that would make it so that they would not be held responsible - would they then feel responsible when they were no longer disturbed and distressed?

Did they stay in a situaution that made them that way when they could have left or because they could not leave because there were no other alternatives.... and they were trapped.....

if someone attacked you and you ended them in the ensuing fight are you responsible for their death - yes - would you feel responsible..... think that comes down to the individual..... should you feel responsible.....

on the other hand ... someone attacks their partner who is leaving them because they are disturbed and distressed by this .... same questions apply..... purely hypothetical ok..

im too distressed to discuss this further but ive read and ive shared my opinion, note i did say "sometimes" - not always.

[phoenix7]

sorry you're distressed Pupp - hope you feel better soon -

remember my answer was for a hypothetical - just giving different views of the same statement - and wasnt aimed at you personally -

I dont have forgiveness in my heart for my attacker - I know that sounds harsh and I thought I was a kinder person but im not......

[AAAAA]

(((P7))) I don't think your lack of ability to forgive your attacker speaks to your kindness at all. Somethings are unforgivable.

[phoenix7]

but so many people say they feel better after they do forgive - I thouhgt I had - but I havnt and now Im not sure I ever will.

take care everyone P7

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by phoenix7

but so many people say they feel better after they do forgive - I thouhgt I had - but I havnt and now Im not sure I ever will.

As usual, I recommend being exactly where you are with that.

[AAAAA]

I have not forgiven, nor do I think I will ever be in a place in my life where I will ever be able to, but I have let it go. It no longer has the power over me that it once did. Sure I have my triggers and weak moments, but bad things happen to good people this is life. I've been able to take these experience and learn from them, my children have benefited from the wisdom I gained. Are they free from danger? Not by any stretch of the imagination, but they're better educated. I do think that the majority of the.... (searching for the words) predators seek the easiest targets.