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#1
Nov 05, 2011, 06:54 PM
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Hello, everyone.
It's been quite sometime since I've been here and I'm glad to return with some rather uplifting news. I'm certain that many of you are aware of the OWS (Occupy Wall Street) that began last month and has spread like wildfire across the nation, and now global. I'm not one for contributing any of my time or effort regarding anything political, (as I have a serious inability to comprehend and process information in most aspects, which leaves me feeling quite inapt), however there was something about this protest which ignited a spark inside of me. It caught my attention just days after it began and I have been following it closely ever since. I reside just a few miles south of Oakland. And when the protest marches began I wanted to become a part of it. I attended the General Strike in Oakland for the entire day and have been moved by the unity of the tens of thousands (up to 100 thousand for the closing of port), who all were there for one sole purpose = solidarity for all. The video alone is amazing to look at, but it is just a candle's flame to the actual blaze of intensity of energy. Amazing! I never experienced anything like it in my life. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=r4jYdCaHrjQ Since, I have been donating my time to gather items of the needs for the commune. Today is wooden pallets and bags of clothing. Anyway, I just wanted to share this. It's a great thing. And I can only hope that there are many others among us here who are supportive of the movement. Shangrala 
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 I  U!
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#2
Nov 06, 2011, 04:52 PM
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Very interesting Shangrala. I find the Occupy movements very inspiring, though sometimes annoying as there doesn't seem enough clarity in the message (at least to me watching it on TV - maybe it's clearer when you are there) and I think things like this only succeed if the protesters present a clear, unambiguous, simple message - in about 1991 there was a big protest against a new incredibly unfair tax in the UK, which got dropped subsequently - everyone just had banners saying 'Can't Pay - Won't Pay', a really simple message. When I see OWS (or the London equivalent) on TV, I see banners saying Tax the Rich, banners saying Clean Up The System, banners saying Legalize Weed, banners saying Grow Organic Food - too many different ideas!
But I am impressed you took the time to go down there and protest about something you believe in. The system really has got quite messed up over the years and I hope stuff gets changed. But I think the best take on it was from the Cookie Monster, from Sesame Street... well not really him. People might have seen this already, but at avclub.com (a great TV, movie, book etc review site) many of the commentators on articles adopt silly gimmick personas. One guy writes as if he is the Cookie Monster, mainly concentrating on cookies in movies... but his take on the Occupy protests was mind-blowingly good (long quote follows!): Yes, there always going to be rich and poor. But we used to live in country where rich owned factory and make 30 times what factory worker make. Now we live in country where rich make money by lying about value of derivative bonds and make 3000 times what factory worker would make if factories hadn't all moved to China. Capitalism great system. We won Cold War because people behind Iron Curtain look over wall, and see how much more plentiful and delicious cookies are in West, and how we have choice of different bakeries, not just state-owned one. It great system. It got us out of Depression, won WWII, built middle class, built country's infrastructure from highways to Hoover Dam to Oreo factory to electrifying rural South. It system that reward hard work and fair play, and everyone do fair share and everyone benefit. Rich get richer, poor get richer, everyone happy. It great system. Then after Reagan, Republicans decide to make number one priority destroying that system. Now we have system where richest Americans ones who find ways to game system - your friends on Wall Street - and poorest Americans ones who thought working hard would get them American dream, when in fact it get them pink slip when job outsourced to 10-year-old in Mumbai slum. And corporations have more influence over government than people (or monsters). It not about rich people having more money. It about how they got money. It about how they take opportunity away from rest of us, for sake of having more money. It how they willing to take risks that destroy economy - knowing full well that what could and would happen - putting millions out of work, while creating nothing of value, and all the while crowing that they John Galt, creating wealth for everyone. That what the soul-searching about. When Liberals run country for 30 years following New Deal, American economy double in size, and wages double along with it. That fair. When Conservatives run country for 30 years following Reagan, American economy double again, and wages stay flat. What happen to our share of money? All of it go to richest 1%. That not "there always going to be rich people". That unfair system. That why we upset. That what Occupy Sesame Street about. Last edited by BugsyMalone; Nov 06, 2011 at 04:52 PM. Reason: spelling |
 arcangel, gma45, notablackbarbie, Shangrala
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#4
Nov 08, 2011, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Now we live in country where rich make money by lying about value of derivative bonds He starts off with a sweeping generalization-Does this include successful entertainers, athelites?, How about mircosoft, exxon, walmart, facebook, coke etc...? Last time I checked none of these firms build their wealth on derrivatives trading. In fact the people he is refereing to make up a small proportion of "wealthy" make 3000 times what factory worker would make if factories hadn't all moved to China. This is a common claim, but one that does not hold up under analysis. Manufactoring output in the US has in fact held steady. The primary decline in the number of people who work in factories is a function of the increased availabilty of higher education and automation. In fact my job and the job of my two teammates was created because of outsourcing. The company I work for has outsourced a number of functions to India, yet here in NC in the last two years my firm has added over a thousand jobs. And corporations have more influence over government than people (or monsters). Corporations are nothing more than groups of people working together for a common purpose. The CEO of Walmart gets exactly one vote at election time and so do you. If people do not take time to actually research the background, policies and platform of a candidate or party before going to the polls and just cast their vote based on some advertisment, then whose fault is it really? IF corporations truly had their way, why do we have more than 160,000 pages of regulations on the books? Why are operating cost for business higher than ever? It seems to me that for all their lobbying they would have been able to do more to alleviate both situations. It about how they take opportunity away from rest of us, for sake of having more money. This is the old "Life is a zero sum game" argument, and it is fundamentally false. Quick proof-over the last twenty years no one could argue that the likes of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates have had their wealth increased tremendously. In that same twenty years my own net worth has increased by twenty fold. I am not rich by any means, but prudent handling of money, carefully weighed investments and the right decisions have made me far stonger economically than I was in the early 90's. If what this man is saying were really true, my own success would not be possible. When Liberals run country for 30 years following New Deal, American economy double in size, and wages double along with it. That fair He seems to forget that the reason the American Economy did so well following WW2 is simply a matter of geography. Because mainland America could not be reached by the Germans or Japanese, our factories and infrastructure were unharmed. Europe and Japan on the other hand had been all but bombed back to the stone age. It took both areas nearly a generation to rebuild their capacities, so when it came to manufactoring the US was the only game in the world for a very long time. We had what could be called an artificial golden age. Also he does not seem to mention that many of the New Deal programs were cut or eliminated outright in the period that followed WW2. In fact govt spending overall was cut quite a bit and the budget was brought into balance under Truman. While Truman was Democrat, he was hardly a Liberal by today's standards. Also Truman's term was followed by Eisenhower, a Republican who oversaw both peace (he kept us out of conflicts) and relative prosperity. Then after Reagan, Republicans decide to make number one priority destroying that system. An accusation with no supporting evidence. It is also illogical how would it actually benefit anyone to destroy the country economically. Look, I am not hating on the folks in occupy (insert town here) and there are legitimate economic reforms that need to take place. The problem I have is that many people do not carefully analyze economic ideas and fully understand that any policy must be weighed in terms of cost vs benefits and that as Milton Freidman rightly pointed out, there is no such thing as a free lunch. I had high hopes when OWS started, for real and thoughtful proposals for economic reform, unfortunately what I am seeing are a bunch of kids demanding a free ride in life. I might as well go out there with a sign that says "I need a Rolls Royce Phantom, Now!! My demand would be no less unrealistic. There is a bigger picture though that is easily missed by those who do not understand economics and fail to to read history. Western Civilization has always been in a state of change. When we transformed from an agricultural economy to an industrial one, many businesses and jobs were destroyed in the process. How many carriage builders and blacksmiths do you see nowadays? So it is with the present, globalization has destroyed jobs, no doubt, but it has also created great opportunities for those who think outside the box and are willing to acquire more skills as they move on in life (unemployment for college graduates is 4-5%). What do you think Mark Zuckerburg would be doing if he lived 50 years ago before the rise of the Internet? Last edited by Timgt5; Nov 08, 2011 at 04:27 AM. |
| lonegael, Shangrala
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#5
Nov 08, 2011, 08:41 AM
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Bootstraps will only take you so far, especially in an economic recession. A lot of kids are protesting because what else do they have to do? In many cases the job market is so bad that people have given up looking because they've been out of work for over a year. I live in an area that hasn't been nearly as hard hit as others and I've still been looking for six months. I can completely understand the frustration.
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The vast majority of protesters aren't bums or anarchists and they aren't asking the government to magically fix all their problems. From what I've seen, the majority of OWS protesters just want a government that isn't bought and paid for by big business and the super-rich. We haven't had this gross level of disparity between the upper and middle class since the 1920s; their perks have been growing exponentially while the middle class has remained essentially stagnant since 1980. Here's the current report regarding income distribution from the Congressional Budget Office: http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/124xx/doc...holdIncome.pdf Whatever one's views on how to get by in life, something needs to be done. When China, Russia, and Iran all have a better record in income equality than we do, there's a problem.
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dx: bipolar I - lamictal 150mg/risperdal 3mg/klonopin .5mg "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence, nor imagination, nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, that is the soul of genius." --Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Last edited by nacht; Nov 08, 2011 at 11:08 AM. |
| arcangel, Shangrala, Timgt5
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#6
Nov 08, 2011, 03:14 PM
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You make good points Timgt5, but overall I think I'm on the side of the Occupy team in spirit, even if as I say above I think the message is muddled and the answers need more thought.
But I think one important thing you say is Quote:
I'm not American, so I don't want to tread on any toes, and I know my knowledge is limited. But it seems to me from the news that gets reported here that your two main parties just aren't talking to each other any more. Maybe they never did, but I always get the sense that leaders like Eisenhower could get things done by uniting the country. And whether you agreed with him or not, the President was still respected as the President. I don't know when that got lost? Maybe Nixon, with Watergate? Maybe Clinton, with zippergate? And now we have the Greek PM resigning, Berlusconi of Italy apparently going too... right or left, we need to pull together and accept goodwill on both sides I think. |
| Shangrala
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#7
Nov 10, 2011, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
As for your point about corporate personhood, I agree. Corporations are a Legal Fiction, which is why by the way Corporations do not actually pay "corporate" taxes any more than your house writes the check that pays your property taxes. The real reason corporations have the kind of power they do is a function of the federal goverment's continued interference in the marketplace, and frankly an apathetic public. Oddly enough Ayn Rand in her novel Atlas Shrugged, written in the mid fifties, forsaw much of the corruption and lobbying of today, she refered to Lobbyiests as "Men of Pull" You have to keep in mind that there are a lot more of "us" than "them" Exxon Mobile cannot vote, you can though. Thing is unless people do more than pay attention on the week of the next election, and actually become truly engaged in the issues, and show up at the polls (the US has one of the lowest election turnouts in the free world) then the coruption will continue unabated. Self governance is not easy, and only works if you have an engaged citizenry that takes time to understand the issues and knows at least enough to intelligently weigh costs vs benefits of a set of proposals, both short and long term. For the record, I support free competition and I oppose ALL forms of subsidies, bailouts, tax credits etc... for individuals and companies. All of these things distort pricing and send incorrect signals causing people at many levels to engage in unwise behavior. I did not support TARP, or the GM bailout. Keep in mind that TARP was forced on a number of banks at gunpoint (many did not want to take the funds), something that is not widely reported. When the dust settles the treasurey will actually end up with a positive gain back on TARP (interest paid back on the money loaned) GM on the other hand will turn out to be a 15 Billion dollar write-off for you guessed it, Us, the taxpayer. As for income equality, well it is not really an issue for me. A lot of people are shocked to hear me say that but lets engage in a bit of a thought exercise: Let take someone famous and wealthy like Brad Pitt, a movie star. Mr. Pitt, gets arround 20,00,000 dollars a film. That is a lot of money but lets break this down. Brad signs a contract with the studio who voluntarily agrees to his fee to star in their movie. They do this because of his past record of filling seats in the the theater when he is in a film, and so they are guessing that his presence in the movie will bring in far more income than they are paying him. Brad also has likely stipulated that he will receive royalties from said films eventual sales of DVDs, and showings on Pay per view and HBO etc... again the studio agrees. At no point has Brad threatened anyone with violence or defrauded anyone (assuming he shows up for shooting and performs properly) Now lets say our movie turns out to be "blockbuster" In order to be successful the theater has to fill seats. The people come and spend their 10 bucks or so to see the film, largely because of Brad's leading role. The film then goes to DVD/Blue Ray and HBO/Cinemax/Showtime again people buy the film or rent it etc... Ultimately the studio recoupes its investment and Brad can afford to adopt a few more kids from the third world. At no point has Brad done anything immoral or illegal. Brad's wealth exists because millions of people were willing to pay him to act in a film, no one was forced to go see the movie, no one was coerced into buying the DVDs, Brad did not cheat the studio or the consumers of the end product. His wealth then derrives from millons of people who agree that his acting is worth a part of their hard earned money. So let us say there are those who say that Brad's success is not fair, that his money should be redistributed to other people. In other words, all of those millions of people made a decison that "we the few" do not agree with and so we want to employ force to negate the decisions made by the many. In other words, "we" are smarter than the unwashed and stupid masses who should have chosen our preferences instead. Brad Pitt makes more money than I do, because he is a handsome charismatic man, that far more people want to watch on a screen, pretending to be someone else, than to pay to watch me sit my desk and crunch numbers. I accept that he is the product of a free market and so am I. If he makes thousands of times what I make so be it, he did not do anything immoral or illegal, so why should I want to punish him and who am I to say that my wants override the wants of millions of ordinary people whose lives he brings pleasure to with his acting. So this begs the question, by what moral right do I have to the property that another has aquired by his/her voluntary arrangement with the marketplace, and who am I to point the proverbial gun at the head of the wealthy person and claim what was acquired by the free will of others, should belong to me? So let us return then to your examples of income equality. Russia, China and Iran. Over 70 percent of the Chinese population live below what we would call a poverty level, in fact 44 million Chinese citizens live in caves, literally (look it up for yourself) Is that what we really want to emulate? |
| Shangrala
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#8
Nov 10, 2011, 07:18 AM
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 When I worked for a CEO in the meat industry, he kept a file on all the politicians, highlighting only one party and choosing his own candidate. It was mandatory for all employees to contribute money to the PAC for whatever candidate the boss chose. I never told them they HAD to contribute and vote for the person, but they were fully aware of my boss's list. If they didn't contribute any money, they knew they would be on the chopping block - possibly even blacklisted so they wouldn't be able to get another job. If they didn't contribute enough money, they were cast out and ridiculed for not being a "team player."How does the power of my single vote compare with the vote of a corporation - and WHY are we both considered "people?" I'm only one person....and there are MANY corporations in this country. |
| arcangel, Shangrala
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#9
Nov 10, 2011, 12:39 PM
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Thank's all for replies.
Not only do I wish I were more capable in comprehending everything I read (severe issue with processing information), but even more capable of expressing properly what I do understand so that I can contribute to debates such as this one now. It intimidates me that I cannot express myself well enough to make a good invested comment. But I will say this...Despite my inabilities I stand strong in what I do believe. I don't understand politics well (never really could follow it, despite how I tried). I do understand though that there is one huge problem in our country that is growing into a big blistered head which is on the verge of exploding upon everyone. I have sat aside for years, observing, (yet not fully understanding) the gradual changes. Stating a little here and there about how no one (including me), seems to want to get up, shut off their televisions, get off their comfy couches and actually DO something..what, I don't know. All I know is how I've been sensing disaster coming like a tidal wave gaining strength & power far into the ocean, undetected..until it's too late. It brings tears to me knowing that our children are doomed to suffer so greatly. "I am just one person. What could I possibly do?" Or, "I'm too busy working "my" job TO be able to do anything". I have heard those comments from far too many people for too long. And when I am asked what can be done, I am, once again, caught within my own inability to express myself clearly. It is my belief from direct involvement that those of the Occupy movement are not just a group of spoiled, lazy young Americans who seek for that free ride. Yes, there are those few isolated groups (such as the Black Bloc) who's sole purpose is to discredit the movement to make the majority appear as exactly what the corporations want us to appear to be = a group of dirty, lazy, stoned hippies seeking validation for our "unearned rights". I'm sorry for the language, but ********! I'm 53 years old and I am but one of the thousands of my age group, standing beside thousands more a decade older than me, (and older), united with tens of thousands of veterans of all ages, children, gays, executives, homeless, students, disabled...you name it, we're all there for one sole cause = to TRY to make a change for EVERYONE. If anyone were to take a walk through an Occupy commune (in my case, Oakland and San Francisco), naturally you will notice that most who are camping there are the homeless. Those others camping are many out of work, as well. Naturally, due to the initial appearance of the stature of the majority there, one tends to think that this is merely a commune for the homeless using the Occupy movement as an excuse to utilize what opportunities he/she can receive through this movement. At the same time, one has to remember why they're homeless and out of work to begin with. I don't know about any of you, but anytime I see a family standing at the side of the road holding up that cardboard requesting for food to eat, or anything they can do in exchange for something to eat, I act upon it. "I do not intend to make the change. I intend to be a part of the change in the making" - Shangrala I am just one person. What can I do? I have united with hundreds of thousands of other single persons (asking what they can do), striving for the the same goal. The best I can do is support what IS the right thing to do, for us all. I don't want a free ride. I want the freedom of the pursuit of happiness. That's all. I apologize for the rant. Thanks, peeps! Shangrala
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| BugsyMalone
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#10
Nov 10, 2011, 12:56 PM
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The first is a pic of the General Strike march in Oakland for shutting down the port of Oakland, (which was successful, btw).
The second pic is from Occupy Phillippines march. Both impressive.
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#11
Nov 10, 2011, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
I am not asking that someone walk up to Brad Pitt and demand he fork over his money, because that would be silly and unfair. What I am proposing is that tax loopholes be sealed and breaks on the 500K+ income bracket be removed. There is no reason that General Electric should have paid less in taxes last year than I did. Taxes are the lowest they've been since the Reagan administration - especially on the wealthy - and it's not cutting the mustard. Somewhere along the line, people are going to have to start paying more if we want things like a well-kept infrastructure and civil services. You want nice things, you have to pay for them. That's just the way it is. The problem with sealing loopholes and/or increasing the tax burden upon large businesses and the individually wealthy, of course is that some corporations might start outsourcing. But let's face it, most of these folks have been outsourcing domestic jobs for years. So what do we really have left to lose? We have a culture of exceptionalism in this country, a mentality that says "well someday I may be fantastically wealthy too," and we are, I think, far too willing to excuse the abuses and excesses of the finance industry partially for this reason. Quote:
Of course I don't want to emulate China. But would I want to emulate Norway? In a word, yes. That said, I am a democratic socialist. I believe that a government has a moral responsibility to its people to ensure a minimal standard of living. Pursuit of happiness is up to you, but it's easier to pursue when we're all allowed a chance to pursue it. If that makes sense.
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dx: bipolar I - lamictal 150mg/risperdal 3mg/klonopin .5mg "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence, nor imagination, nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, that is the soul of genius." --Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart |
| arcangel, jitters
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#12
Nov 11, 2011, 03:51 PM
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This thread has been closed for political discussion. While we are definitely not against politics, Psych Central is more related to psychological problems and things that can affect us psychologically.
You may consider a social group for this kind of discussion, but we really can't allow that kind of discussion here, outside something like a social group. Thank you.
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Believe you can and you're halfway there.
--Theodore Roosevelt |
| Closed Thread |
This is an old thread. You probably should not post your reply to it, as the original poster is unlikely to see it.|
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