Slapping, spanking -all the time an Abuse?

The boy is 22, the girl is 14

Gosh, i just realized in what I said theres something I want to clarify.

Though if one of the situations came about where I needed to react strongly or swat on the bum - such as if Jeremy ran into the road - Though i may ACT angry - I would NOT be spanking out of anger as Tishie said. However i wouldn't doubt that id be scared out of my mind. Spanking as revenge for making you mad is definetly wrong.

I want for the moment to ask people to stop writing here.
I discovered this and other info. I will write here later.

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/sta...c11.html#BK114
http://www.trigger.net/~biss/pages/cfsa.htm
http://www.facswaterloo.org/html/Abu...ToContact.html

No - I do not feel that a "mild slap" as described by you in your first post is child abuse nor do I feel that it will cause any emotional damage to the child... I used hand taps on my children, my nieces, my nephews and now my own granddaughter and there has never been any harm done by it - they are now between ages 25 and 1 and they obey, respect and still love me - all very well behaved kids.

My parents considered that they were using smacking appropriately on my siblings and I. If one of us made too much noise in the back of the car, my dad would turn around and slap whichever bits of any person he could find. I distinctly remember feeling hatred for my parents after they hit me. I remember my dad hitting me across the back of the head for not getting a maths question right. There was an occasion when I was 15 when I confronted my mother over her leaving me to care for and make dinner for my two younger siblings and not cleaning the house (she didn't work) and instead of discussing it, she slapped me across the face for challenging her authority.

You may say that this is not smacking in your rules, but it is in the rules of other parents and by encouraging smacking you are also encouraging parents who will use hitting in the above manner, and call it smacking. I never want my son to be fearful of me. I feel once you start using smacking, it is possible that you will escalate. My parents had the idea of smacking being a whack across the bum too, but in reality it wasn't like that.

You sent me a message and asked my opinion so I will answer. I don't understand how slapping a child could help her to stop slapping herself. It doesn't make much sense. It sounds like you didn't know what to do to make her stop. Maybe there was another way. I would say it's abuse if your daughter felt that it was. For in my experience, during one SU attempt, my ex slapped me in the face. I was very angry with him, but I understood he was trying to "slap some sense" into me so I wouldn't commit SU. I wouldn't consider that abuse. If it were like this situation, although it could have been handled another way, if you felt that she was going to really hurt herself or lose control, maybe it would have been okay since it was an act of desperation and IF the child understood this, that you were trying to get her to not hurt herself. But it is the actual child's perception of the experience that would determine if it was abuse or not. If she was emotionally scarred by it, I would say it was. Yes slapping does harm, so one couldn't say that they were trying to not harm by slapping, with that understood in your situation it seems you had no idea what to do, you didn't understand what else could make her stop, you were desperate. My mother slapped me on the leg one time when I was rolling around on the floor, crying uncontrollably and couldn't tell her what was wrong. I didn't exactly consider that abuse. Have you talked to your daughter now about this? How does she feel about the situation? Unless it is completely obvious to others, I don't think the law or other's opinions could determine if it was abuse or not. If the person that did the slapping feels terrible and guilty about it, that could determine it was abusive (although some people that have abused think what they did was a good thing), and/or if the person who was slapped was hurt physically and emotionally by it, that could determine it was abusive. People aren't perfect and neither are their laws, it comes down to the actual people that were involved in the slap to determine it's label. I would think that repeated slaps and spankings or any other physical kind of violence is abusive, no matter if they don't leave a physical mark, they leave an emotional mark. But if it was only one or a few feelings of desperation that caused a light smack, that's a slip up, a mistake, or a misunderstanding of what to do. That doesn't neccesarily label someone an abuser.

You "spank" a 22 yrold and a 14yrold?

Yes, there's something wrong with that. Wow. Poor kids. But what is a 22yrold doing around a mother like this anyway?

You might try actually reading the whole thread.

My T and I talked about this subject once, and how, when a very young child is trying to hurt themselves or their mother, the mother will hold the child so they cannot hit the mother (themselves). I would think, as the child gets older and too large to restrain in this way that a quick, attention-getting slap would be a good way to break into whatever state the child is in.

My husband struck me once and due to abuse by my stepmother, the first thing entering my head was, KILL! But I was an adult and know in my bones my husband loves me and know he's a reasonable, responsible man and does not express his anger or frustration physically so I gave myself a bit of space and asked him why he'd slapped my hand/arm.

We were making pancakes together in the blender, I was teaching him how and he wasn't getting it He was putting the blender on the base for the 5,000th time (getting the consistency right, not too much milk or too much Bisquick, that is what he couldn't get (and still doesn't :-)) and apparently he saw me trying to flip the switch and turn on the blender before it was seated on the base. . . A no-no safety issue!

I didn't kill him. I think "why" we are slapped does make a big difference. Being slapped or hit because the slapper/hitter is frustrated or angry is abuse, to my way of looking at things. I think you were trying to help your daughter the best you knew how, not punish her or take your frustrations out on her. I don't know why the issue has come up now, with her the age she is now but if she remembers it and it hurts her I am sorry she is not able to work it out for herself that there might have been situations where you stuck her to help her, not to hurt her.

I smacked my five year old this morning.

He got up for no reason and punched his brother who is ten in the belly !

I told him off then smacked his bum telling him he hits again and I will hit him.

Told him I love him and because of that I will stop him from being nasty to other people.

I know many on here will disagree with me but he was naughty so I punished him.

He said sorry and ran off playing.

I thank you to you all and I am sorry if I got personal. My trauma (scared for children) that got in remission and in last 2 years I have gotten only chronic depression and anxiety was again reactivated. It's very hard for me to write and worse to make it short:

Special thanks to Tishie, farmergirl, Rainbowzz, Rhapsody and Perna and who ever thinks outside the box and is not afraid to talk, who listen carefully to a request and answer thinking at all the situations, conditions, getting out from the “inside box” thinking, with honesty and integrity, as anyone who cares for his/her children and for this society, humanity should do.
“No - I do not feel that a "mild slap" as described by you in your first post is child abuse nor do I feel that it will cause any emotional damage to the child... I used hand taps on my children, my nieces, my nephews and now my own granddaughter and there has never been any harm done by it - they are now between ages 25 and 1 and they obey, respect and still love me - all very well behaved kids” (after I put the links regarding the new law!!)
I thank them for their courageous sincerity in a world in which exists a DUTY TO REPORT (that usually leads to extremist regimes, in history!) and the machine of social services created for the protection, welfare, development and whatever else they will invent anymore… in order to pressure you for years because of a SLAP! The humanity probably solved already the other types of abuse and eradicated violence and we reached so advanced that soon will have children’s factories with professional supervisors instead of parents. No one could ask the supervisors to be as perfect as they ask us, parents, to be! I don’t think a supervisor who usually respects instructions and wants just to “cover his/her butt” would risk something for the children “well being” or the child “best-interest” as about abuses they have NO LIABILITIES but only GOOD FAITH when is to judge their acts!
I do consider too that you would be better scaring on the moment your child to avoid see him/her learning bad habits or injured or dead! It’s easy to see if a child is well average developed and functioning, nurtured, clothed, without many absences at school and visiting a physician and taken care by an average normal parent and no one should give lessons to such parent as each child is unique and no one could know so well a child. What’s the purpose of putting under pressure a parent and a family for a slap or light hit, till the broken point? Just for having more objects-subjects of work? Waiting for who knows maybe the parent without authority, rights to guide a child anymore but still responsible for that child will do abuse or commit suicide or the child like any teenager push the limits over any limit and so some people from social services got more work to do, when they do not have enough)

Of course that the above women have nice educated children; children who are independent thinkers, who have good reports in school while doing probably some extra curriculum activities, too. On short; children with moms (mums) that really spend quality time with them! And, like my daughter, their children trust them and talk more with them than talk with friends in school! We all know that genetics could affect different the children and society too. That’s why a parent needs sometime a huge patience and love to address problems like ADHD, ODD, or other disorders who affects a child decisions and possibility to think on long term at consequences no matter that it could reason over his/her age. If other authorities will dictate and imply all the time that a parent might abuse the child when teenager the child could use that as a weapon to push the limits not even realizing what is doing and what happens.
AShadow721 has an interesting position: “I would say it's abuse if your daughter felt that it was” – Wonder how many adults know! (I will right more on therapist threads and give specific examples of what can a therapist instil in a child’s head!)
You wrote an emergency situation that could be practically the same for a child in any crisis! “my ex slapped me in the face. I was very angry with him, but I understood he was trying to "slap some sense" into me so I wouldn't commit SU. I wouldn't consider that abuse.” -

““Anything you do that instills fear can be construed as abuse.”
Is it so? WE might fear God or Allah or a divine power or the Law or the school code but none of them considered till now a slap, light hit an ABUSE. Have all the parents to be put on "PROCUST'S BED" and raise their children in fear? What logic is this?
Araya “As for your other point, I do of course think that spanking a child is the lesser of two evils between it and the scenarios you presented. However, I don't see how lack of spanking automatically leads to those conditions?”
I beg your pardon? I knew that my logic (reasoning) it was over average –no chance to still be emotional of 5. I Make genuine mistakes and that’s why I asked people to stop till they read the new law that dictates a DUTY TO REPORT “any suspicious…even of a risk” of some mental disease of parent or child … only fascist, communists, dictatorial regime did that, not trusting the citizens because some groups gathered more power over POLICE and JUSTICE and LEGISLATORS!

I might make mistakes thinking that having a civic sense (honesty, integrity and real interest for the evolution of my society! ) and nothing to be afraid or ashamed to ask help from professionals when having problems with a child:
I might let, without knowing that not all professional are tested, an narcissist omnipotent person like you in my house (without asking of warrant or charges) not imagining that a professional could do a sloppy work and even lie because they got “prescribed” by law NO LIABILITY and all is GOOD FAITH and no judge and jury could appreciate an offence (in law too!) “If your child really requires that level of physical force to discipline, it might even be beneficial to get a professional in the household to assess it and see why that might be”
Are you an investigator from the Frozen North where the abuses and youth offence greatly increased (at least 25%) after social services multiplied as personal many time in time…no matter the youth population decrease 10% with all the immigration? Araya “As for your other point, I do of course think that spanking a child is the lesser of two evils between it and the scenarios you presented. However, I don't see how lack of spanking automatically leads to those conditions?”
I beg your pardon? I knew that my logic (reasoning) it was over average but I do not make sense of your question and I am not used to see bad intention around; It may be my “mental illness”! You wrote that discipline must be “more difficult for a parent with a mental illness, but you still think it's important for the child's well being” … referring to my question about slapping once a child? No offence, but you might know better!
When someone, even a child, kills, hits or harms (physically, emotionally) people around, snapping out or harming himself or be under an angry crisis you may need to stop that person by maybe harming, hitting, or even killing thinking of the best of all including that person too; instead of just looking at how others are killed off or abused or in case of our children putting their life in danger or ruining it before they understand that reasoning it’s not enough for taking a decision when not able to appreciate the context and being able to see the consequences on longer term! Who said that the lack of spanking a child automatically leads to spanking, killing, hitting,? For me is sincerely hard to follow up this reasoning.
But probably you can’t overcome the childhood problems and you are still in need “to please” “ I was just willing to say whatever I needed to in order to avoid more pain. Later, when I was a teenager, I didn't tell my mother things it really would have benefited me to share, because I didn't have that trust in her. I had learned to get around authority and be sneaky about something they'd consider bad, because I was afraid” I was beaten when a child but that didn’t teach me to please, to lie and to be sneaky!
“When you spank, you're teaching your child that if they're bad enough, it's okay to be hurt.”

My child, knowing that I don’t like to hit (and I am convinced that the majority of parents, don’t normally enjoy that!!) told me at one moment that better slap her than to abuse her emotionally, psychologically… taking her computer! The family therapist said in front of my child “that was an extreme punishment; You should not use it!” and demanded to give back the computer to my child because she needs that for school! Actually in her idea you should never double a punishment or increase it no matter the child is not respecting any! Same logic like yours!
What’s more harmful for a child when you have to choose what it’s better to do and to le the child know about life? Should I teach my child that is okay to do any bad to her or to others because she will never be … hurt? Hm… Any punishment-consequence hurts! But some hurts on moment … while people like you could hurt more much. Do I have to teach my child that he/she could, harm physically and mentally other people or himself … and in life nothing bad could happen to him/her?
There are innocent, not guilty, parents who have done prison or are in prison, not only because one Dr. Smith in Canada or another doctor P in U.K! Hitler or Stalin didn’t create a system alone!

1. When my daughter was 8 she had a period of time when she slapped herself, even loud over the mouth for saying something innocent or doing thing that she never saw me angry but scared and only if she didn’t listen to me being in shock I was shouting to her; (when she broke something for example and I was telling her to get out of that area and do not enter till I clean) For me it didn’t matter what she broke or damage because she had no idea of value and she didn’t want to do it, it was just negligence or not able to pay attention as it could happen to anyone. Things are not more important than people. I didn’t understand why she started punishing herself when no one punished her physically from what I knew. I tried the empathy method and I said if you think this could be a method I will try it too but hurts! It didn’t work and I used the old joke from the time when she was saying “it wasn’t me who did that bad thing, it was Miss Piggy” I told her to invite Miss Piggy outside of her or I will slap Miss Piggy. Next time when she did it, I slapped her. I slapped her and Miss Piggy didn’t slap her anymore!
(Later I understood that she had been bullied in school.)

From my life experience:
In short I don't think what you described is technically abuse however.....

I grew up with parents who spanked and other times the spank would turn into an expression of anger and an open hand turned into a punch or a kick. The relationship I had with my parents was based on fear. That just taught me to not go to them when I needed help. It also taught me to be sneaky.

I do not spank my children however I feel very angry and frustrated sometimes and I'm glad I don't spank them because I know it could lead to something more when dealing with the most frustrating of situations.

Not all kids are the same. A parent could spank child A and child B. Child A could grow up with no worse for wear and child B could have 'problems' (I am very emotionally distant from my parents). To me it's not worth the risk.

My husband and I took a positive parenting class and it has been a huge help. I must say it's easy to fall into the 'yelling' roll of what my mother used to do when she was angry with me as a child (when I'm tired, I lose my mind and forget the steps for positive parenting). I hate living that way.

Hitting a child for discipline sends the message this is how we relate to each other. It doesn't teach them anything by the definition of the word discipline.

Children will give you behaviour that gives them attention. Look for the positive and make a bigger deal than you would if it were a negative behaviour. When you start giving more positive attention vs. negative they will test you and you will get even more bad behaviour from them as they want to see if you can react the 'old way'. Eventually this will pass.

Best of luck! Being a parent is often rewarding and the hardest job on earth!

Peace.

There is a difference between abuse and discipline.

This was probably said, but oh well.

For me, hitting a child in anyway is something I will never do. It wasn't pleasant for me, it won't be pleasant for the child. 'Spare the rod spoil the child'? Yeah, I don't think so. I know people who have never gotten hit, and act completely fine, and kids who have gotten hit, act out. There are tests that say spanking will lower the IQ, I'm not sure if this is correct or not.

Hitting a child for hitting someone else is just wrong. You are trying to teach that hitting is wrong, but then you hit the child? That's ridiculous. (Not saying YOU specifically, I'm just saying to anyone in general.)

Not that all of these things are horrible, but spanking can cause so many things. Can cause low self esteem, depression, anxiety, anger, fear, fetishes, confusion, humiliation, and then with those things, others can stem.

Your child could grow up and fear you, resent you, and I'm sure you don't want that to happen. I'm saying they could, not that they will. And again I'm not saying YOU Gabi personally, I'm saying in general.

My parents hitting me left mental scars. I don't know if this is from it, but I also have depression, anxiety, OCD, deal with ED's and self injury, and something else that I won't mention. A few of those things deal with my past so much, that what my parents did make me hate them for it. I have secrets because of it that will never be known.

What I would use, is time outs. Sure, the kid will cry and scream at first, but they'll also do that if you hit them, and a time out isn't hurting them in ANY way. They will eventually calm down and tell you they are sorry. When kids are hit and they say sorry, they say it in fear. Also the idea of taking things away works. TV, computer (only letting them use it for school), toys, etc. That happened as I got older, and I don't have any problems with it.

Spanking can also stay in the kid's mind, and when they become parents, they could have so much anger built up, that they take it out on their own kids. (not saying the will, saying it could happen.)

So, to me, it's abuse. And I don't condone screaming at a child either, or calling names, or telling them that everything's their fault. Basically something that could make their self esteem plummit. You want them to learn, you don't want to hurt them. Abuse is abuse, you have to remember what's right and what's wrong.

I used a privilege system...writing standards...time outs......paying back a debt ...tried to relate consequences as close to what they could expect from society later in life as possible.We didn't hit ....there were alot of i love yous flyin round the house and earning extra dollars and activity involvement .but if they hit...they wrote standards if they missed homework...they made it up next day...if they didnt perform assigned chore...allowance was deducted......ect.Then they got bigger lol....

I'm new here, but i just finished reading a book on parenting that was very helpful to me. It makes it clear that you have to differentiate between spanking and hitting. Children need boundaries to feel secure. If you are telling your child "Don't do that. ...DON'T do that! ...DON'T DO that! ...DID you HEAR ME? DON'T DO THAT!" and then hit the child, it is clearly abuse. In that scenario, you have waited till you are angry, and taught the child that it is OK to hit when he/she is angry. Also, you have taught him/her that you are not serious the first time.
The book advises to switch a child, which is illegal in some states. Look at your state laws and follow their guidelines. I'm pretty sure that all states will forbid hitting in anger. teach your child that there are consequences for doing wrong. He/she will thank you later. I thanked my parents! But remember, you are teaching. Children are not morally mature. They will not automatically know what they should and shouldn't do in different situations. They are also VERY selfish, and will test you. Be patient, but firm. They will be happier when they know exactly what they can and can't do.

I think a lot of this depends on age. I have heard from several people in early childhood education that before age 5, hitting has absolutely no effect on a child except to make them angry. They don't yet have the ability to distinguish cause and effect. So in this case I would call it abuse simply because the child really doesn't have the ability to think "because I did this, I got spanked".

And you can't do the same 'punishment' every time either because it will put those patterns into them without teaching them. I feel that the best way is to give the child options on how to do it correctly. Spanking them or hitting them just says "you're wrong" without any real way to do it the right way. I feel that this kind of punishment all too often makes the kid more rebellious and more angry than if the parent talked to them and gave them options.

i dont think slapping a child is automatically childabuse or that you're a bad parent ive you've slapped your kid when it was young BUT that doesnt mean there couldnt have been a better way to handle those situations? Esp if slapping becomes a regular thing...

And i dont think you'll like me very much for saying this gabi but to me it sounds like you only want to hear people validate your own beliefs about slapping... You're kinda rude to people who think different. If you dont want to hear those things imho you shouldnt have asked this question...
You knew beforehand it would get mixed reactions.