Miss Mouthy Attitude

I have a 12yr old girl who has decided that she needs to sass any adult who speaks to her. She talks back to me and my mom the worst. We have a squirt bottle that we use on the cats and I thought that since she says that a slap on the face is child abuse, that I could use the spray bottle on her. One squirt for each time she talks back. It is only water. What do you all think? She also has an "I don't care" attitude. All she cares about is doing what she wants and when she wants. She has been in a day treatment program for 8 days in October, and then spent 5 days inpatient last month. Both were for writing suicide notes. She sees her t this coming Monday, the 6th, I don't know if I should bring this up to her t or not. I am at my wits end with her.

you need to remove everything from her room except for her matress, 3 pairs of clothes, and a set of pajamas. anything like drawers, non-ceiling lights, Entertainment or anything else in her room. This includes her door. She is now allowed to change in the bathroom. In bathroom provide a towel, a wash cloth,deodorant, toothbrush, tooth paste, roll of toilet paper,and a hair brush. remove all breakable mirrors, and any other ship objects. She can shave in front of her mom. put locks on any drawers that have shaped objects or medication. provide her with 4 bottles of water, two hot dogs, a bannana, and an package for week day meals. add a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for the weekends. give her a notebook, a sketchbook, to mechanical pencils, and a library card. Have her bring a notebook 2 therapy. please do not read it because that is the only privacy. If you can afford it put her in daycare while you work and a YMCA sport. this way she is continually watched while doing healthy things. you can't even go as far as giving her 15 minute minutes to take a shower before you turn off the hot water. she is allowed to spend quite time in her room after 9 pm. if you believe in church take her to church on sunday. you and legally responsible to provide food, a clean, safe place, in attend to hey medical means. She is currently not safe. she has shown her self to still be a threat to her self and others but not enough 2 the choir hospitalization as she is talking back and doing as she pleases which could put her in dangerous situations. you are basically providing a hospital setting with more restrictions until she is able to prove that she isn't a threat to her self.

ps: she can fold 16 clothes and put them on the floor. She can fold her clothes clean clothes and keep them on the floor

Had someone done the above to me when I went through that stage I would have found a way to kill myself as fast as I could. Actually if someone tried that today I'd be getting the heck out of here. That won't help anyone, esp not your relationship. There are many inpatient treatment facilities that you could inroll her in. There is one for teenage girls called Mercy Ministries that raises a lot of the cost with donations. It is a Christian organization though. If she isn't in danger anymore either try increasing how often she is in therapy or changing her therapist since she doesn't seem to be getting what she needs. After I was raped I held a lot of resentment toward my parents for not protecting me, esp since when it came out they also didn't support me. Maybe sit her down and tell her you are worried and ask why she is acting out.

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IzzyMeadows
She just got out of inpatient and needs round the clock care still. Most of those things are to help her stay safe. The only thing that is because of her attitude is the food thing. However kids are given both breakfast and lunch at school. Taking away everything and building a better support system and healthy outlets. Taking all other distractions creating a calm, quite place will let her concentrate on what is going on with her. Please go step by step of what you disagree with so I can explain my reasoning. Ask any questions you want. I was there not to long ago, my son is a year younger and this is how we run our home.

Miguel'sMom, your "plan" would work great if I didn't share a room with my daughter. You see we are not fortunate enough to live on our own and share a bedroom in my parents' house. That's beside the point. She spends 70% of her time with me and the other 30% with her father where she shares a room with her 2 little sisters. What you are suggesting is that I act like she is still inpatient, that is not going to happen. If she needed to still be there she would or she would be in residential. As for the daycare situation, there aren't any daycares around here that take kids older than 6th grade. My daughter is in 7th. I do not work and therefore do not have the funds to have her involved at the Y. She used to dance up until Oct 2013, when SHE chose to quit for reasons that do not matter here. She gets things taken away when she is disobedient, but it doesn't phase her.

IzzyMeadows, she sees her therapist once a month because her therapist is very booked. She has only seen her twice, so I am not sure about how things are going to work out. Finding a therapist that takes her insurance is like finding a needle in a haystack. It is ironic that you mention Mercy Ministries. My ED therapist was telling me about them today. My daughter isn't old enough yet to receive their services. You have to be at least 13. I might be able to get her in sooner because she will be 13 in 4 months. I have to do some inquiring about it though. She will openly admit that she has anger issues to me about her father and I getting divorced and her father remarrying.

If she is in school you can call and talk to the counselor she's assigned(all schools have at least a part time). In my high school if someone was having issues they could arrange weekly sessions to check in. That might help until her therapy kicks off. If you go to DHHR, they have programs to help people afford the help they need. Mercy ministries is my own inspiration to go into psychology and open a teen resource in my area. It would never hurt to give them a call. Sometimes for anger issues they will recommend excersize. Nothing helps me like a punching bag. If there are colleges near you a lot have gyms. My college has it's gym open free for the community. Also some kung fu studios have an open gym night for the community.

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I understand what it's like to share a room with your child and most of this is for if you are the one that owns/rents the home. Yes I was suggesting to treat it like inpatient. My son doesn't get fazed by removing things. See I'd her therapist can schedule her for months in advance. I'm 3 months ahead of my current session so that I can see my therapist 2x a month. I journal daily so that my therapist can understand my day to day issues. Honestly I'd talk to my therapist and hers for help with her.

I'm sorry but taking everything away is just punishing her for her emotions. If she admits it she wants help, not punishment.

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Wow Miguels Mom.

Just wow.

I'm so glad now I have my own mom, I almost want to hug her. Thanks for reminding me mine wasn't so bad.....

A slap on the face is not child abuse. One slap and I never mouthed off again.

Jimi it's not just our child we do this with but ourselves. Yes even the sport and a daycare type of situation If you are not willing to do it to your self then you shouldn't do it's better than removing them from your home and traumatizing them that way. I'm far from a strick parent but with the other situation this is dangous. Maybe my husband and I were worse kids.

No need to jump on MM, she's just another mom trying to help. She's been through a lot.
She's saying to remove objects daughter could hurt herself with. I've been through similar with my 2 older kids.
I am sorry what you're going through. I don't understand inpatient though just for writing a sui note - wouldn't most of the world be locked up then? How did you find the notes?

I don't agree with slapping. I did slap my son once at that age & told our therapist. He said it may have some shock value at first, but not the best message. My son ended up very violent - not because of that but anger problems related to MI & dad abandonment. He has tried to strangle me. He's been hospitalized 10 times in teen years for violence threatening the family with knives & cutting himself. it's been a nightmare.

My daughter was mouthy like your daughter sounds. I didn't see warning signs & she od'd on aspirin at 14, I barely got her to the hospital on time. These are the hardest years. Here self esteem, health, future, life are all vulnerable at this age.

I strongly don't agree with squirting water on her. that's very demeaning & humiliating. I admit I tried similar things with my son to no avail. Please don't do that to her, it will lead to resentment. I'd recommend rather you let her know you love her and ask what can you do to help when she's really angry. it's very important to stay calm but very hard too.

what has worked, the only thing that has worked when they're suicidal is to have a bond of trust and open-ness to be able to talk to each other. One good doctor during one of her hospitalizations told me to remember to be playful with my daughter. I realized that in my own depression, I'd forgotten how to show my kids how to be fun & resilient.

Talk to her, communication as much as possible. She needs to be told by you that you care & love her, over & over. Anything brought up about the past, I say ok what can I do to help you right now, I want to help you, I love you. We don't want her to feel like a bad horrible person just because she's being a mouthy pre-teen. You can let her know she can get through it and that you're there to help, that you'll get through it together.

Best of luck, take care.

Okay after further thinking my mouthy, and "do whatever I want attitude" is different than others.

Mouthy = Threatening to family w or without a weapon or being violent
"do whatever I want attitude"= means sneaking out, drinking, doing drugs, sleeping around and illegal things. Yes even at 12.

If she was suicidal most likely she secretly still is that doesn't really go away it gets better and gets worse but it's always there. Especially if she is self harming. You always have to be proactive with that. All the things I said to take away are things that you can use to self harm and privacy currently is not her friend if she's self harming/suicidal. Being around family and proper sleep is a must. Even the things I said to let her keep can be used to harm herself.

We taught our son if he or anyone else hits/slaps anyone it's considered assault and they can go to jail. He immediately called us and told us when my dad popped him in the mouth and asked to be picked up 600 miles away and we seriously thought about it. I couldn't imagine if he got sprayed with water. That's a never seeing my child again offence.

The sports and daycare is so she can see how others her age behave and have healthy outlets to take out her strong emotions out instead of herself.

So if it's just saying "no" to things you ask her to do give her 12 min time out. Time out doesn't start until she is quiet and it's a time to reflect on ways she can get her point across respectively.

If my mom had squirted water on me that age I probably would have gone totally berserk on her. I didn't deal well with being treated like a non-person. Squirting water on a child, I seriously thought it was a joke made out of frustration.

Yes my son went berserk on me - I tried to throw him in the pool one time when he was calling me names & spitting on me when he was 12 or 13. but he was stronger than me. I would go back if I could with what I know now, how horrible of me. What he did was wrong, but he needed his feelings validated and I just tried to punish him. Teachers were telling me I needed to take control and show him who's boss. Screw them. That advice made things exponentially worse.

Kids with MI or other issues don't always respond to punishment, it leads to more bad behavior. I think these ones respond to kindness & understanding, and finding a time to talk when everyone is calmed down.

Also in my opinion, these kids are actually smarter about the world, have been through more than other kids, see the world differently. So they are able to have deep conversations about real & deep things. As a parent, saying sorry is huge points with them. They know when we do something wrong. Saying sorry and letting them know our feelings made us lose our cool cuz we're only human too, they can usually really appreciate that.

It's complicated & every situation & family is different. But after all the therapy, and skills I've worked on, I'd like a re-do, as tortuous as that'd be for me, I could help a different outcome for where they are at now.

But I have to practice my resilience, and remember it can get better & we've made some headway. It can get better, and support and understanding from here has helped me hugely... It's not something my picture perfect neighbors could ever understand. We're here to try to help each other through.

I have stopped using the squirt bottle, in fact I only squirted her once because she told me "I dare you to." She spent the weekend with her dad and actually came home with a decent attitude. Which is highly unusual, and I'll take it. Last week she did really good with getting up and going to school without giving me a fight. I understand that this is going to continue until she realizes how she is acting and starts caring about herself and others. I really could use some ideas as to how to give her consequences for being both good and bad. If anyone has suggestions for healthy consequences I would appreciate them.

Blue, I'm glad you came to the conclusions you did. I think some people (much depending on location) are taught the way to teach a child is to punish them and punishment becomes the one tool. People here had to rethink end 70s when physical punishing a child became illegal. Some people thought kids would behave worse than before, but the opposite was actually true. Parents had to be more creative and I think that was a good thing. They had to really try different things to see what worked instead of bad behavior = slap/spank.

I know when I acted out as a child, I had both anger and fear in me. It's easy to just see the anger part. I wish my parents would have understood how deeply afraid I was.

Sure kids are different from adults, but you are so right when you say these kids have been through more. I don't believe these kids throw tantrums, I think they have what in adult terms would be called a panic attack or whatever else names there are for adult meltdowns. And sometimes kids who cannot control their behavior or moods feel so much like a failure that they start to control what they can and what they can do is set off their parents. I think this can be the way of saying "at least I have SOME control over my life".

I know I could have been punished to death and not stopping having panic attacks, because for me that is what I had I think, even if it came out more edgy. Of course then my parents tried to raise someone with traits of autism and they didn't know it, they did their best and I don't blame them for not understanding me or even understanding I was my own person. They had their own issues.

Butterfli - my suggestions for healthy consequences will differ from some others, but I have been where you are with the frustration of kids misbehaving more than the "average" kids. Teachers told me to basically show them who's boss, but they didnt have training in dealing with depression & mood disorders. Some do of course and some even have personal experience, but not most. So firstly I'd say listen to your own heart and follow what you believe.

From the therapy & many books like "lost at school" & "the Tao of parenting" (my favorites), parenting with thoughtful compassion, listening, advocating for your child, being the calm center in the middle of their storm & a strong loving bond are the keys.

A bond of trust helps them feel secure & believed in. Harsh consequences risk their self esteem in a world that's already dealing enough blows. The bond & trust will make it more likely that she feels safe to come to you with her problems & that you'll be a good listener & not judge her. Isn't there enough judgment out in the pre-teen world? They say to listen and get them talking about even the small boring things & show interest, that when you get them talking about that stuff, the bigger harder stuff will come eventually as well.

Healthy consequences to me are done through effective communication, listening, avoiding humiliation. For example, she got up & dressed for school, I'd say "thank you for that" with a smile. Maybe ask for a hug, they often refuse at that so if you get one, awesome. I'd smile & thank here for that too & say, "I love you so much!" If I got the refusal I'd say, "that's ok, maybe later? I just love ya." (Playfully).

And then later in the day maybe she's extremely moody, maybe she had a rough day, maybe she's had to face peers & teachers who say, "oh are you that girl who was in the mental hospital?" Or sneering, "oh look you decided to show up today? Hmph.." (Those exact things and worse happened to my girl). Sometimes they don't even want to talk, just need time to stew, process, decompress from a bad day. I'd ask if I could help or get her a snack or drink. If she yells to go away, I'd just say "ok I'm here to talk if you change your mind, I just want to help and love you cuz I'm your mom."

Then sometimes they take it out on us because we're the safest place for them to burst out in mean-ness. So lets say she start spewing every name in the book at you & your mom, stay calm as best you can, dont yell back or stoop to 12 yr old level, you can't win at that level against a real 12 yr old lol. Say, "hey please don't be mean to grandma" or "hey that's not ok to treat us that way" and "what can I do to help right now". If she says you can F off or worse, I'd give her some space. If your blood boils like mine does, try to give yourself time to cool down. Maybe ask her if you can try to talk when you're both calmed down? If your mom tries to get in the middle, I tell my mom: please let me do the parenting I've got this, your job is to just be a loving grandma. My mom would sometimes tell me in front of the kids, you cannot let them talk to you like that. I have to take her aside and say, please support my parenting, when you get in the middle it feels like you're undermining my authority, please let me do my job, I know you're trying to help thank you I love but I need to be the voice of discipline. Then with daughter when things are calmer, let her know that wasnt ok, that hurt our feelings, I love you & want to help, but please don't be rude to me & grandma.

I could go on & on because this has been the nightmare of my life for the past 7 years. I hope that might help for starters and some food for thought.