Help with 20 yo daughter

I understand but I’m just trying to make sense of why she does what she does. I attended a 12 week Nami course for families of those with mental illness and a whole bunch of people there had no official diagnosis despite having been to psychiatrists with thei loved ones. I think it’s really hard to pin point what it is exactly that they have. From my point of view I’m trying to work out why and what drives her behavior because it’s definitely not within a range of ( I hesitate to use the word) normal. I’ve been through hell and back and still am. I don’t say to her directly I think you are BPD or whatever, but I do privately try to work out what it is partly so I can either help her or just know the best way to respond to her. That’s all.

Dear all,
Thank you to the many of you who have replied to this thread and once again I ask your advice.
In a kind of similar incident to the one I mentioned before, 2 days ago I was home alone. I unloaded the dishwasher that I had put on earlier and re-stacked it with dirty dishes. One of those was a pot I had to scrub after my (now 21 year old) daughter had burned something on the bottom of it.
I made my dinner in a different pot and was just sitting down to eat it when my daughter came home and said ‘oh you used that pot.’ (It’s the one pot without a copper base that can be used on the fast stovetop device we have.) so then I could tell she was angry and then she said can you wash it for me so I can use it. I replied no, I am not washing it. Well then she came back with apparently the night before she had used the pot and her dad needed it so she washed it for him. Then she started saying she does loads of dishes of mine (lies) and so I got upset and started replying to her telling her that was not true and if we were to compare I would certainly come out on top considering how much I have cleaned up after her. So long story short this argument escalated fast and she (in my opinion) should defer somewhat given that she lives free in her parents house and is asked to do no chores. (That’s another story as she won’t do them) so first of all she got mad and lost her temper and threw an empty coke can at me. Then claimed she threw it at the sofa, not me. Life is complicated and in the past I have had emotional affairs. So when my daughter gets angry with me that’s the route she takes. She started saying how I cheated on her dad and the conversation ended with her calling me a ‘cheating w****.’ I retreated upstairs, shaking with rage and hyperventilating.
My question is this though- she does not address it with me. The next night her father and I were doing a trivia thing and she piped up with one of the answers then later emailed me a funny gif. Then this morning she was chatting away to me. I do not like the fact that she can be so verbally abusive and then just expect you to act like nothing has happened. And if I’m honest this has been the scenario going back I years. I have had arguments with her where we are both screaming at each other and then she can just act like nothing happened. And expects to move on without it being addressed.
I would love advice. I do know I should not have engaged in the argument in the first place but what I really want to address is what do you do when your daughter calls you a vile name then just acts like it never happened? If that was a fight with my husband we would not be back to normal until we discussed that fight calmly and agreed we would try not to do that again, but if I say to her please don’t speak to me I’m still hurt, she will just reply with something like - oh f—- off or, you said terrible things to me too.
Sometimes I think I just have to cut off contact with her because this keeps repeating over and over.
Thanks to anyone who reads and replies. This is affecting my life and I would like to do what I can to make it better.

Hi Rebecca,

I reread your thread, but I’m not sure what to say. It looks like her $500 rental didn’t work and she’s back home. Why?

Her behavior is abusive, and she is being allowed to get away with it. She is 21.

I do understand your dilemma in being afraid to put her out of your house because she may have a disorder and you fear she won’t be able to care for herself.

You are allowing her to act like your equal. That’s one thing you can definitely change no matter what is her real issue. Don’t engage with her if she throws your transgressions in your face. She’s just trying to deflect her bad behavior.

Can’t you and your husband unite to give her an adult time out? You’d both ignore her ranting, tell her it’s your house and your rules. If you tell her to wash the pot, and she wants to use it, she’ll have no choice but to wash the pot. Tell her to get away from you both, go to her room or leave the house until she cools off. Yes, gray rock and no tolerance of disrespect in union with your husband to enforce.

I'm sure you feel overwhelmed and exhausted. Whatever her issues, you are not finding success in your current approach to setting boundaries with her. And limit setting is clearly needed.


Currently it seems most of your energies are going into almost obsessing about the details of the last conflict. She's living in your head in a kind of hopeless and defeated loop. Often the things that a troubled person is pushing for (others being locked in a struggle with them) are far from the things that person needs or will benefit from. It doesn't help either of you to be going round and round this way. So it's time for trying new thinking and behaviors!


I wonder if you could focus elsewhere than where she seems to push you. Put energy into seeking information about how to set boundaries, especially with folks who have mental health issues. There's the classic Boundaries book, and the Al Anon literature is great in how to stop codependent enmeshment, and on this site the article on 15 Things Not To Do With Borderline Personality has excellent general advice.


It doesn't matter what the specific diagnosis is if strategies for boundary setting start working for you when you employ them consistently. And that resolute consistency is crucial. Once you've really accepted that the current cycle is not helping anyone, and that it's the kindest thing you can do for everyone to get off the merry go round, then you can be determined and constant in a new approach of your own choosing.


May you find relief in taking empowered action!

One more point.
I was taught when learning healthy boundaries myself that I should catch myself if I am doing any one of the following things, acronym JADE.

Do not:

Justify
Argue
Defend or
Explain.


Think about how often we are doing this. Remember NO is a complete sentence.

I love this advice!

Thank you for your reply. So, her $500 a month room was ending on December 31st, 2019. She asked if she could come home until April, when her new house was going to be ready. Unfortunately, with covid she lost her job and the house fell through.

There's a few things at play here. First of all, I do not get the united front from my husband that I need. Second of all, I agree that she acts like an equal. Giving her time outs or asking her to leave does not work. She simply refuses to leave. That night, I was the one to retreat to my bedroom to escape her. She simply fronts you up.

I feel like unless I had supernanny or a psych expert in my ear telling me exactly how to respond I simply don't know what to do and blame myself. Part of me thinks I cannot manage this and I simply need to be not living with her ever again.

To add a little context as to what she is like, she has a fiancee and the other night she came home with him and asked us to mute the TV and then she proceeded to rant to me and her dad with the fiancee sitting there, saying he had lied to her. It was absolutely awkward and uncomfortable and completley inappropriate. A few days later they are hanging out again. It's so toxic it's untrue...

I'm fed up with it all. I tried. I took mentall illness classes and we went to therapy for years. I feel like I tried...

It’s good news that she holds jobs and has a fiancé. She’s eventually going to move out and into her own.

Maybe retreating to your room is the best idea for now. Gray rock, exit, don’t engage.

Thank you for this.
I agree I do get obsessed by our fights, but after so many years of this, my strategy is to live alongside her, but stay out of her way. Even when we try to do something or spend time together, it doesn't usually end well.
I mean the night I described with the pot, I was happily minding my own business. I did nothing to her. She was the one who had attitude. I guess it just always shocks me how little love or respect she has for her own mother.
As for limit setting, I agree, but she refuses to live by any limits. I think I need her to move out. There is nothing we have tried that has made her obey or follow limits. And her attitude is - what can you do to me?
I will definitely look up the books and articles you have provided but I will say I will spend not too much time on it because I am at the point where I have already spent significant time on trying to find a path that works and have not found it yet. I have tried. It's utterly soul destroying. Bottom line I dont think she has has little if any love for me.
I said this to another poster, but unless I had a supernanny type person in my ear teaching me how exactly to respond to her, I'm not sure what else will work. She's a master manipulator and I don't have back up in dealing with her.

Well, that's all debatable tbh. She's never managed a consistent job. As for the fiancee, he's a doormat she manipulates and walks all over. That's up to him though. I DO agree she needs to move out. I also agree its best to go to my room, although when you think about it, its literally MY house and she's such a bully she has ME retreating? It all makes me very sad and it is NOT normal.

Since it’s gotten to this point and she’s now an adult, it’s too late for the parenting that would have normally happened starting a long time ago. Your husband wasn’t united with you and she became unmanageable. There must have been a lot of issues between your marriage that contributed to her lack of discipline. But what’s done is behind you, so don’t beat yourself up. At this point, you are having to get through a pandemic with an adult daughter in your house being a toxic drain on you.

After life gets back to normal, you can get her to move out, change the locks, and don’t let her back in. I’m sorry and know how heartbreaking this must be for you. Prayers for maybe she will grow up and become a much better person someday soon. 21 is still quite young.

Rebecca,

I like Tisha's advice throughout this thread.

My husband and I are still supporting both our son and daughter in their 20's because I did not follow the above advice during their teen years and early 20's but we are united now and they are much more respectful, helpful, etc.

Parenting is hard work. Maintaining a house requires significant financial resources. You deserve respect for what you are doing for her.

During my walk this morning, I was thinking about this thread. I agree with Divine that we have to be careful about diagnosing others. For example, in my case, I also had bad boundaries and was too enmeshed in their emotions. They basically could easily find blame with their parents rather than take responsibility. This was my fault because they are good kids with problems and weaknesses like all of us but I had put them on a unrealistic pedelstal which must have been quite confusing. There were times I rescued them from their own mistakes which I did out of emotional love for them. We want our children to be loved but in my case I have to be careful not to let high emotions cause me to make the situation worse. In these family drama's, many times, everyone made mistakes so it is important to eventually learn to forgive ourselves and each other and move on. She is only 21 so she has a lot to learn and IMO the best thing we can do in addition to having simple boundaries is just to let them go and advise them less. We have to remember, that they are adults and how sweet their life is is mostly up to them.

PS. Perhaps you will be able to eventually relate to the YouTube video on this thread: Twelve Precious Truths a Wayward Child Can Teach Us

Thank you!
Yes, it is heartbreaking as I have no relationship with her. I truly believe she doesn’t love me or her father. (I’m not saying that to sound pathetic. It’s a true belief). I agree with everything you have said and that is at this point I don’t see a way back unless she gets older and thinks god I only have one mom and dad and they did their best and comes back to us. But as it is it’s simply not manageable. Because I’m just writing posts, there’s a load more I haven’t even told you all. These include compulsive lying (and lying about something that is totally obvious she’s lying donut but she says it like it’s the absolute truth) and loads of other stuff that’s happened. If I had written it all down I’d have a book. But I do need her out which is likely not be until October/November. I’ll have to hang on and stay sane.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Thanks for this. Sadly, for me I don’t think we will ever be united as to how to deal with her so sadly that’s not going to happen in our case. For example, she leaves a mess everywhere. As we speak she has dishes left on my dining room table including a bowl with food still in it. I also just cleaned 2 trays that she had used. Yet she would argue to the moon and back that she does dishes including mine. Anyway, the point is I’m desperate to tell her to get the dining room table cleared except I have stopped making requests of her as it leads to a huge fight so I’ll ask my husband to ask her to do it, but if I don’t ask him he just walks past the dishes and it doesn’t bother him. Also, my opinion is to show a united front, he should have said to her that he heard she called me a cheating w—— and told her that level of disrespect will not be tolerated. I think because he didn’t address that with her she thinks he thinks it was acceptable. It’s a huge mess. I think I’ve reached the conclusion I just need her out because we barely speak. It’s horrible. And my heart hurts but I dint think it’s fixable. She’s had a normal life. She’s just always resented any kind of authority and refused to accept it. I remember saying to her but we are your parents. Other parents also tell their children to do their homework or to clean up etc. but she would lose her mind if asked to do those things. We went through 2 years of therapy once a week and that didn’t help either! I feel like I tried! Ugh. Sorry. I’ll stop typing now but thank you for replying to me.

Hello!
Thank you for this.
I want to just let you know that I do not advise her any more at all. After years of terrible fights with her etc my M.O. now is to co-exist in this house with her. I do not approach her to talk unless she comes to me first. As for diagnosing her that’s a hard one. For a long time when she was young I just thought ok her behavior is challenging and we need to work out how to do this to help her. As the years passed and it got worse and of course we want her to make good choices and be successful we sought out help. The first doctor ever to say anything said she had ODD and that’s why she hated being asked to do anything. Then later we dealt with her taking an OD and ending up being committed. I mean we are talking serious stuff. We thought therapy would help (not just her but also us as parents to know how to react to her and help rather than make it worse) but nothing she said helped. It doesn’t matter about a diagnosis but I’m on here because my 21 year old hates me and can turn very nasty and vicious. I’m asking if there’s anything I can do. I’m not asking anyone to diagnose her and nor am I trying to. I’m trying to describe her behavior. And it’s absolutely not normal. I’ve tried and tried and tried with her for years and years and now I’m just ground down with it.
I’m probably not explaining it too well but it’s hard because this is not a new thing or me interfering in her life now she’s an adult. I’ve been struggling with this since she was very young and I guess I feel bad because after everything we tried none of it helped.
And it may be wrong of me but I would never in a million years have said the things she says to me to my mum no matter how mad I was. She can be cruel imo bottom line I need her to move out and maybe in a few years she will mellow.
I will watch that video thanks for lining it!

No need to say sorry because no one has to read. BTW--I have a habit of saying sorry way too much.

I do not have a perfect family (perhaps that is a myth?) but I truly believe that things are only improving for our children because my relationship with my husband which had got off track at some point in the marriage is so much better now. And your daughter might also need assistance from a psychiatrist or therapist but she can only be forced if she is a danger or left to deal with it on her own when she doesn't listen. IMO, it is important to not put our children before our spouses. I also have had to learn to not worry about upsetting other people. I had to learn to stand up for myself when my husband got upset at me--only then did I become strong enough for us to work many things out. I also had to learn to appreciate all his sacrifices for us more! It is not hopeless! Hang in there!

It does sound awful but you should not have to coexist because it is your house and your husband should be backing you up when she turns nasty and vicious. Is it vicious enough to call the police? You might both have to formally warn her in writing that she will be thrown out on a certain date if she has over the top behaviors that don't change. I thought my situation was hopeless, but it is getting better because my H and I are more united. There are also mental health issues in the mix but that too can be improved with the right help. My recommendation is to talk to him openly about everything. Try not to go over past mistakes, focus on the now. If you are not in agreement then, sadly, things probably won't work out as well.

And I assume our situations aren't exactly alike but I also had to get help for my anxiety, depression and perhaps bipolar 2--I do find that I am a lot more level headed on the medications I am now taking. Don't want to diagnose anyone in your family because I feel like MI diagnosis are tricky because you have to figure out how much is behavior verses personality verses chemical ups and downs that meds can help with. If you are not getting cooperation, all you can do is focus on you and maintain strong boundaries.

Honestly even the best parent/child relationships go downhill when everyone lives together. I get along with my daughter only because we don’t live together and never never did since she became an adult. If we lived together we’d have bunch of issues because we are both a pain in a neck. Lol We visit each other on each other’s locations and the most we stay is 2 weeks. No desire to live together

I never lived with my parents after age 19. I understand not making enough but that’s what roommates are for.

She needs to leave. Go live with a boyfriend or roommates.

There’s definitely something going on with her behavior and authority defiance which has been on-going and chronic. How did she do in school? Is she in college?

There’s also something going on between you and your husband in that he didn’t pipe up when she called you vile names bringing up a very personal marital issue. I presume you worked that issue out with him and he’s moved on from it. His silence here is strange. Do you have conversations with him about that? Where is the disconnect where you two are not united as parents of her? This is an important discussion between you and him.

I also worry in these situations how violent it could get. It’s better to be safe and wait out getting her out and somewhere else when the time comes.

If you don’t feel any love from her, I believe you that there isn’t any love from her. I hope she does grow up and realize her parents have value and shows love. It can happen. It can also go the other way and she could become a really bad person committing crimes. It’s really scary and that’s not your fault as parents. No one is perfect and you are very good parents, even if for just the fact you are keeping her fed and sheltered right now proves it. She may have a diagnosable issue, she may be able to get help but she has to want it, she may just mature on her own in time.