Help with 20 yo daughter

Hi,
I have posted here before but it’s been a while. My husband and I have struggled with our only child (now 20) ever since she was small. She was always very defiant. She was always very negative about her life and came out of school crying. But she had a good life. Also, my mum looked after her and she was naughty. Granny gave her a scolding and she told my mum ‘if you tell my parents I’ll say you hurt me.’ At preschool a volunteer parent described her as a nightmare. I took her to a doctor at around 10 and he said she had ODD. We went to years of counseling. Nothing helped. My husband and I went and took a mental health course. Now she’s 20. One night she made pasta and left the pot a mess. The next day I messaged her and asked her to clean it up. It started a huge argument. She called me a ‘psycho *****.’ She says I’m the reason she stayed with an abusive boyfriend. She says her childhood was awful. I’m just lost people. She has no proper diagnosis as far as I’m concerned. She’s had a ‘normal’ childhood yet acts like she’s had the worst childhood ever. She actually had little to no love or empathy for me or her dad. I just need to vent. I’m thinking my life is a joke. I did my best for her!!!

I am sure you did the best you can. Most parents do. She's 20 so her successes and failures are on her. Don't let her talk disrespectfully to you. She can leave (you can give her notice with an appropriate amount of time to prepare) or talk nicely.

I was reading horoscopes today. One said:

let the day pass and don't let your heart feel anxious about situations, circumstances or people that you have no control over. You can love from a distance and realize that each person has their own journey. Yours may be to love and to let go at this time.

As a mother of two children in their 20s, I try to remind myself to do this everyday.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It’s good advice.

I’m sorry you’ve been dealing with a child who has always been difficult.

TunedOut gives good advice. Your daughter can be shown the door with her disrespectful attitude.

My niece sounds like your daughter. She is 31 and still lives with my sister. She is finally holding down a job at the smoke shop across from their house.

I thought I had an ideal relationship with my sons, also aged 17 - 24. They were great kids. We never had a single argument until recently. My oldest is getting married and had become a different person. Our heads are spinning in shock. We are not going to his wedding! The whole house of cards tumbled down with the whole family that we thought was so amazing!

It’s not your fault and this wasn’t our fault. Make choices that are healthy for you. I know how had that can be to do.

I guess I’m just very hurt because I would have thought that for a child to ex communicate their own mother something serious had to have happened. I can totally understand it if the mother was abusive or something equally serious, but this is a child who had as ‘normal’ a childhood as any kid. She was fed and had her own room. She went to nice schools and taken traveling. I just don’t think anything that happened to get warrants this reaction. I still think she has an undiagnosed mental illness. I’ve posted here before about her. She always did react violently when asked to do something. I guess what I need to find is a support group for parents whose kids are rejecting them. I’m finding it difficult to cope with.

I just saw this reply. Thank you for this. It’s important to me to know that I am not alone. I feel like a failure. I have one child and she more or less hates me. I think she has little genuine love for people though and that’s part of who she is. She only loves you if you are doing exactly what she wants. If you’re not then she cuts you off. It breaks my heart too because my childhood wasn’t ideal so when I had my DD my husband and I tried to give her everything. Not necessarily material things, but just a good life with good experiences. She was always strong willed even from a very young age and of course this got worse the older she got. We spent 2 years at one point going to therapy every week but it didn’t help. Husband and I did a 12 week mental health course which was nice because we got support and sympathy from the other families attending. Like I said before I just can’t believe she had no love or empathy for her own mother. I would understand if I had been mentally, physically or sexually abusive to her but I wasn’t. Of course I raised my voice to her when I was frustrated, but no different to any other parent. The latest incident was that I messaged her a picture of a dirty pot asking her to clean it and she went mad, messaging me calling me all sorts of names and saying how I’m a terrible role model and it was because of me she’s been in an abusive relationship. I had enough and gave her a month to move out. She’s apparently doing so, but she’s going to take her dog who has lived with us for a year and she doesn’t look after it. My husband does. So number 1 we are attached to the dog and 2. I’m worried she will neglect the poor animal since she doesn’t get out of bed to walk it first thing. It also causes friction with my husband. At one point he said to me ‘she’s moving out. You got your wish.’ But wish is that my daughter didn’t hate me and we had a semi-normal relationship. It doesn’t feel nice knowing you have given birth to a child who hates you. It’s really awful.
In reply to you I am sorry about your son and that you have to miss the wedding. I guess all we can hope for is that they realize at some point that we love them and did our best and come round.
Thank you so much for replying. I am feeling so alone do your support helps.

First off, your daughter's reaction to the pot thing was unacceptable and totally inappropriate. Sounds more like the tantrum of a 3 year-old being told to clean up her toys than any 20 year-old. Second, in my experience, families are just weird. There's really no predicting them. When I had my massive psychotic episode in 2007 and everything came down, my only brother basically excommunicated me from the family. No calls, no even once-a-year- bday texts. Just--gone. Totally on my own. Why did he do this? Because he was angry about what had happened (I had a car crash while psychotic and someone was injured). He was mostly worried about our family name, whatever the hell that is. He is extremely well-educated, a successful attorney, and well-regarded. When one of his twin sons developed major depression and had to withdraw from college, I thought my brother might have some sort of insight breakthrough and maybe reach out. Nope. Nothing. I have no brother. I have no family, other than my wonderful father, who chalks this all up to 'sibling rivalry,' as he puts it.

So, families are weird. Your daughter's behavior, as bizarre and immature and inappropriate as it was, is what it is. Maybe she does have some sort of formal mental health issue going on. But she's an adult, theoretically, and she is going to do what she is going to do. Maybe she'll grow out of this. Maybe she's stressed because of this boyfriend thing, which isn't your fault. Whatever the case, you should not have to put up with this nonsense. If she asks for help with some of these things, that's one thing. But if she is just going to be abusive, then I firmly agree with you that setting boundaries is the thing to do. And I would definitely talk to her about the dog. Sending positive vibes your way!

Thank you so much for this! I totally appreciate it. Reading it helped me put things in perspective. Families truly are weird. Thank goodness for this place because I feel like you guys get it. I sent her an email basically saying I’m sorry you feel your childhood was that bad but the intention was always a good one. It was never the deliberate intention to ruin her life. Today she has been nicer, so maybe the email helped. Who knows. Maybe I’ll send her an email about the dog too just offering to help. I’m sorry about your brother. I’m an only child so I’ll never know how my relationship with siblings would have been. My husband has a sister and they don’t talk. His sister is very immature and has cut my daughter (her niece) off and won’t talk to her. It’s all a bit crap but you can’t change people can you!? Thanks for your reply and best of luck with everything!

Hi @rebecca1938 I think you are taking too much time thinking about why she is the way she is and wondering what you did to deserve it. Honestly it doesnt matter. It doesnt matter what she thinks you did. What matters is how she is now. If she lives with you, what are her consequences for not cleaning up after herself and talking to you like that? Does she pay rent or anything towards living expenses. You may need to have her leave and live on her own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebecca1938 Hi, I have posted here before but it’s been a while. My husband and I have struggled with our only child (now 20) ever since she was small. She was always very defiant. She was always very negative about her life and came out of school crying. But she had a good life. Also, my mum looked after her and she was naughty. Granny gave her a scolding and she told my mum ‘if you tell my parents I’ll say you hurt me.’ At preschool a volunteer parent described her as a nightmare. I took her to a doctor at around 10 and he said she had ODD. We went to years of counseling. Nothing helped. My husband and I went and took a mental health course. Now she’s 20. One night she made pasta and left the pot a mess. The next day I messaged her and asked her to clean it up. It started a huge argument. She called me a ‘psycho *****.’ She says I’m the reason she stayed with an abusive boyfriend. She says her childhood was awful. I’m just lost people. She has no proper diagnosis as far as I’m concerned. She’s had a ‘normal’ childhood yet acts like she’s had the worst childhood ever. She actually had little to no love or empathy for me or her dad. I just need to vent. I’m thinking my life is a joke. I did my best for her!!!

Well she’s just moved out in the last 5 minutes. While I’m relieved she is gone she has taken the adorable dog she brought home last August and who my husband has basically walked and looked after this past year. I’m heartbroken about that and I think she’ll neglect the poor animal. Just had to vent.

Wow. Stressful day. I am sorry. Maybe she'll realize she can't properly care for a dog and return him or her. It's always possible. If not, it sounds like you might want to look into getting a dog for your hubby. Sounds like he really loved that dog.

Thank you so much. I’d love to get a new doggo but I think we’d just love the old one back!
I went to therapy yesterday and that helped a lot. After discussing in depth my issues with my daughter and this therapist is not new and has actually met my daughter too, she thinks that my daughter definitely has some kind of personality disorder. She helped me put things in perspective so I am coping a bit better now. I’ll just have to see how it all pans out.
I truly hope that living in her own in a tiny room for $500 a month and looking after the dog full time, gives her the ability to realize what she had. Here’s hoping!

Discussing everything with an impartial psychologist would hopefully provide a start. Lots of hard work over months would be needed. Hard work. Painful too.

Hi!

I don’t have a ton of great advice but I wanted to say I understand what you are going through. My daughter sounds very similar to yours. It’s absolutely awful. My daughter is the oldest of three and insists that her childhood was terrible even though she grew up in a very stable loving home. I’m not saying we are perfect parents, but she treats us like we abused her and tells people we emotionally damaged her with our abuse. Her sisters who grew up in the same house don’t understand her. They are happy well adjusted girls. I hear your pain and I feel the same way. My daughter is now almost 19. It’s awful. I can’t say anything to her without her twisting it into something horrible. Your story of the dirty pot could have been me. In fact it was me a couple days ago but it was juice she spilled on the carpet. Try to remind yourself that her actions are the result of her mental illness, it’s not your fault. That said, I know how hard that is to believe when things get bad. Hugs to you from another parent in the trenches next to you. 🥰

I hope things have gotten better since last October.... many hugs to you and yours.

Hi everyone!
It’s been a while since I replied to this so I thought I would add rather than start a new thread.
I literally just learned about gray rock strategy. Has anyone tried this?
I have realized that my best guess would be that my newly 21 year old has either narcissistic PD or Borderline PD.
I have realized that she knows she can provoke a reaction from me and so I realize now that my best hope is trying out this strategy where I respond to her in as boring a way possible hoping that it stops her targeting me to get the drama she needs. I’m wondering if any of you have tried this?
I am trying to work out how I can have some kind of relationship with her but stay sane at the same time. Any advice is appreciated.
She literally baits me and she’s nasty and vindictive. There’s zero point anyone saying to parent her because I’m beyond that. Any slight criticism or asking her do something leads to a nightmare. I need to think about me now. She doesn’t love me and the things she says to me make my heart hurt. How do I live like that and be ok with it? If she were not my child I would ex-communicate her.

Have you heard of Pathological Demand Avoidant? It's ruled by extreme anxiety. Take a peek. It's considered part of Autism Spectrum Disorder (high functioning) but doesn't follow the classic Autism characteristics. It's probably one of the hardest form of Autism to support.

At this stage, don't take her blame personally. She likely doesn't understand herself as much as you don't.

Please acknowledge her relationship with her abusive partner and ask her what help she's needing. Before you do, please read up about PDA first so you know how to approach her in a way she will listen.

PM me if you have any questions.

I just noticed this thread. I'm so sorry for your situation!

Our 22yo daughter was about 4.5yo when she was diagnosed with autism. It was mainly the rigidity and OCD that led the pediatrician to provide the referral. Back then, we would walk on eggshells to avoid meltdowns.

But even after all the interventions, today she and my wife don't get along at all. Somehow, I think my daughter mistook her mother's overbearing nature as abuse.

Gray rock is interesting. I think both my daughter and I do the gray rock now when interacting with my wife. But I'm trying to move beyond that to mindfulness and carefully responding to the words instead of the emotions.

Before my daughter's epilepsy and depression were controlled, she used to be able to bait me. (Thank God she's much better now.)

I completely stumbled upon lots of effective tools to use with her when I went to Al Anon for the separate issue of my mother's prescription drug abuse and my dad's well-taught codependency. The Serenity approach of the 12 steps profoundly empowered me to stop reacting to my daughter as well. I felt so much more in control of my own self. There's lots of gray rock in deciding not to engage in situations that set you up to reinforce the other's view of themselves as victimized by you. (You know how when you yell back and suddenly it's you who started it all?)


Here is a deep truth: Sometimes I can have EITHER my reaction, or my goal, but not both.


So, for example, I learned that if I just quietly clean up the pot myself, I get my goal of a clean kitchen. But if I have my reaction and confront the provoking person, there's a big fight and the pot is still dirty. After I got over feeling pissed that I cleaned the pot myself, I had a lot more peace. I got my desired result without higher blood pressure.

Oh the empowering freedom!(Caveat--this is a short term or isolated incident approach. You don't tolerate being abusively treated long term. And only you can define what's too much for you.)


My daughter and I have a reciprocally loving relationship now, but that's not to say that those dealing with severe and acting out personality disorders can task themselves with that goal. It takes two to connect, but only one to disengage from destructive cycles for the sake of personal sanity.

Self diagnosing and diagnosing other people seems to be a new trend. Unless someone undergo evaluation by a certified medical professional, I see no benefit in assigning labels and diagnoses. No point in doing that

I understand but I’m just trying to make sense of why she does what she does. I attended a 12 week Nami course for families of those with mental illness and a whole bunch of people there had no official diagnosis despite having been to psychiatrists with thei loved ones. I think it’s really hard to pin point what it is exactly that they have. From my point of view I’m trying to work out why and what drives her behavior because it’s definitely not within a range of ( I hesitate to use the word) normal. I’ve been through hell and back and still am. I don’t say to her directly I think you are BPD or whatever, but I do privately try to work out what it is partly so I can either help her or just know the best way to respond to her. That’s all.

Dear all,
Thank you to the many of you who have replied to this thread and once again I ask your advice.
In a kind of similar incident to the one I mentioned before, 2 days ago I was home alone. I unloaded the dishwasher that I had put on earlier and re-stacked it with dirty dishes. One of those was a pot I had to scrub after my (now 21 year old) daughter had burned something on the bottom of it.
I made my dinner in a different pot and was just sitting down to eat it when my daughter came home and said ‘oh you used that pot.’ (It’s the one pot without a copper base that can be used on the fast stovetop device we have.) so then I could tell she was angry and then she said can you wash it for me so I can use it. I replied no, I am not washing it. Well then she came back with apparently the night before she had used the pot and her dad needed it so she washed it for him. Then she started saying she does loads of dishes of mine (lies) and so I got upset and started replying to her telling her that was not true and if we were to compare I would certainly come out on top considering how much I have cleaned up after her. So long story short this argument escalated fast and she (in my opinion) should defer somewhat given that she lives free in her parents house and is asked to do no chores. (That’s another story as she won’t do them) so first of all she got mad and lost her temper and threw an empty coke can at me. Then claimed she threw it at the sofa, not me. Life is complicated and in the past I have had emotional affairs. So when my daughter gets angry with me that’s the route she takes. She started saying how I cheated on her dad and the conversation ended with her calling me a ‘cheating w****.’ I retreated upstairs, shaking with rage and hyperventilating.
My question is this though- she does not address it with me. The next night her father and I were doing a trivia thing and she piped up with one of the answers then later emailed me a funny gif. Then this morning she was chatting away to me. I do not like the fact that she can be so verbally abusive and then just expect you to act like nothing has happened. And if I’m honest this has been the scenario going back I years. I have had arguments with her where we are both screaming at each other and then she can just act like nothing happened. And expects to move on without it being addressed.
I would love advice. I do know I should not have engaged in the argument in the first place but what I really want to address is what do you do when your daughter calls you a vile name then just acts like it never happened? If that was a fight with my husband we would not be back to normal until we discussed that fight calmly and agreed we would try not to do that again, but if I say to her please don’t speak to me I’m still hurt, she will just reply with something like - oh f—- off or, you said terrible things to me too.
Sometimes I think I just have to cut off contact with her because this keeps repeating over and over.
Thanks to anyone who reads and replies. This is affecting my life and I would like to do what I can to make it better.

Hi Rebecca,

I reread your thread, but I’m not sure what to say. It looks like her $500 rental didn’t work and she’s back home. Why?

Her behavior is abusive, and she is being allowed to get away with it. She is 21.

I do understand your dilemma in being afraid to put her out of your house because she may have a disorder and you fear she won’t be able to care for herself.

You are allowing her to act like your equal. That’s one thing you can definitely change no matter what is her real issue. Don’t engage with her if she throws your transgressions in your face. She’s just trying to deflect her bad behavior.

Can’t you and your husband unite to give her an adult time out? You’d both ignore her ranting, tell her it’s your house and your rules. If you tell her to wash the pot, and she wants to use it, she’ll have no choice but to wash the pot. Tell her to get away from you both, go to her room or leave the house until she cools off. Yes, gray rock and no tolerance of disrespect in union with your husband to enforce.

I'm sure you feel overwhelmed and exhausted. Whatever her issues, you are not finding success in your current approach to setting boundaries with her. And limit setting is clearly needed.


Currently it seems most of your energies are going into almost obsessing about the details of the last conflict. She's living in your head in a kind of hopeless and defeated loop. Often the things that a troubled person is pushing for (others being locked in a struggle with them) are far from the things that person needs or will benefit from. It doesn't help either of you to be going round and round this way. So it's time for trying new thinking and behaviors!


I wonder if you could focus elsewhere than where she seems to push you. Put energy into seeking information about how to set boundaries, especially with folks who have mental health issues. There's the classic Boundaries book, and the Al Anon literature is great in how to stop codependent enmeshment, and on this site the article on 15 Things Not To Do With Borderline Personality has excellent general advice.


It doesn't matter what the specific diagnosis is if strategies for boundary setting start working for you when you employ them consistently. And that resolute consistency is crucial. Once you've really accepted that the current cycle is not helping anyone, and that it's the kindest thing you can do for everyone to get off the merry go round, then you can be determined and constant in a new approach of your own choosing.


May you find relief in taking empowered action!

One more point.
I was taught when learning healthy boundaries myself that I should catch myself if I am doing any one of the following things, acronym JADE.

Do not:

Justify
Argue
Defend or
Explain.


Think about how often we are doing this. Remember NO is a complete sentence.