Gifted Children

Good point, that is one thing we really need to think about is how we allocate resources. I have always favored a European approach, where schools are subsidized and the Parent gets to chose the school that best fits their child. Call it a voucher system or what have you but you cannot argue with the performance of European kids vs American kids on average.

And the other thing is, they are achieving these results, spending far less per child than we are... think about it.

And.... most don't start differentiating instruction (start tracking) students at 6-7 yrs old. Even in countries with cast systems at least attempt to give children at least a few years in school before deciding who might be best suited for professional education and who goes into the voc-tech track.

The thing I dislike about my district is that they do their selection and tracking behind the scene. Unless you are tuned and start asking questions, you would never know that your child was in a low track. Your kids come home with A's and B's, great looking report cards, you think they were doing well and getting prepared to go to college. Then later find out when you get the child's state test back that they are actually only proficient or worse or when they apply to college they have to take some remedial math course because the basic course they had in high school doesn't count.

When I asked the school principal to outline how children's academic abilities were being measured in 2-5 grades I was appalled. First he didn't really know, then he gave me the criteria used to rank the kids, but he couldn't tell me where my child fell after being ranked. Most of the measures disclosed had major biases, were not assess for validity or reliability... any one who ever took just one research methods course would have been like...this is total BS. To me if you are going to have gifted programs and track student you had better have good non-bias measures to assess students and each year ALL students data should be collected and re-ranked by blinded evaluators. This way everyone get a fair chance to receive the best opportunities they qualify for.

My point here is if you are going to differentiate instruction, provide enrichment/remediation etc. then you need to be fair and mindful of how these services are provided. Most of these procedures are not fair and not well thought out and in IMO can have harmful side-effects.

i was first classed as gifted in year three after my school sats.
and tbh it isn't really all that its cracked up to be...
yes, some would kill for a high IQ, high ability academically or just the bloody place at MENSA and all;
but coming with intelligence comes stress, potential bullying, worry, a feeling of not achieving and feeling like a disappointment
sometimes id rather not be. ive been driven to the point of giving up on school, friends, relationships because even when i know ive done "better than average", i feel worthless.
perhaps those who aren't gifted really have the gift-having the capacity of not worrying, feeling proud etc.
but in my eyes; everyone is in their own way, the whole "OMG YOU HAVE TO BE A GENIUS" thing is just... bull. EVERY child is gifted. whether it be emotionally, artistically or just in their own unique way.

(apologies for rambling )

It may seem like a curse now, but in an evermore competative economy, it will come to be a huge advantage, Bill Gates was picked on too in HS, for being a Geek... but he can buy and sell the entire lot of those that abused him then.

TJ

Thank you TIm
I am the child who fell threw the cracks .......back years ago
I dropped out in 11th grade as I have said before. Teachers gave up on me so many times . I promised myself it would not happen to mine.
I always talk about my son . Never my daughter . She had a small speech problem when she was young , But not bad enough for help as the classes were full. I worked with her every night. So she could speak correctly. Her writting was not good. Spelling well like mine. Puncuation.,...forget it she had missed all that. I have to say she worked really hard to over come it.
I did have to step in at 11th grade and point out to the teacher . Teaching a college course that if my daughter was not spelling well or puncuating right, Well they had missed a issue.A big one........\
As her college papers were a mess. I asked the teacher how could this have happened? That a whole school missed it till 11th grade?
Did that mean she too was LD?
With that being said she recived extra help. One on one from the teacher.
But what if I had not stepped in?
Most of all we need the parents , the teachers , socaity to wake up..
My daughter is not in 3rd year of college...

This thread is great thank you Tim

No child left behind should mean just that. They are our future...........
P.S. I did this with out spell check.

With all my heart I wish every child could get a good education that suits them........................

I think that the topic of quality education varies greatly from school district to school district. When we made the decision to move here, our choice of school rested entirely on the LD program. Our eldest suffered greatly from hubby being in the service and moving from place to place. As we educated ourselves, we would contact the next school that he would be attending so we didn’t hear “oh, that program is filled, if we knew he was coming…”

This school district is number 3 in the area, but their LD program was #1. As it turns out, my other children did not suffer a bit, smaller class sizes than #1, and more one on one interaction with the teacher.

The LD program did not teach for the test, as my son’s goals were very personalized and realistic.

However, because of changes in the laws due to the “no child left behind”, my twins had a HORRIBLE year their third grade year! Because of the testing of that aged child, they literally did homework until 10pm at night and still not competing all of the work required of them.

They had more homework than their high school aged siblings! I would read their history to them as they ate so when they finished they could answer the questions. As they were bathing I read the articles in Reading Ranger to them so they could answer those questions. My daughter would do the stupid crossword and word find puzzles. I would look up the definitions to their vocabulary words and put it on the computer screen for them to copy down. For 2 months from the minute they got home from school until the minute they went to bed, they were doing homework. I’d send a note on the uncompleted worksheets saying “10pm, no time to finish.” I let them have Saturday off, but on Sunday, they had to start a new book, because these third graders had to do a book report a week. Why you ask? Because they wanted them to have a well rounded knowledge base so they could test well.

I finally attended a meeting about these stupid tests and stated that my sons would no longer be required to do more than 3 hours of homework a night. Furthermore, I was denying them permission to administer the test to my sons. Which started a frenzy of “we can do that?” The district president was not pleased, but I was going to be damned if my 8 year old kids were spending 8 hours in school and spending another 6 on homework. They went from loving school to hating it so much they were physically ill in the morning when I got them up for school.

I think one thing Muffy's posts illustrates is our methods for predicting which child is going to ultimately become a Harvard scholar, millionaire businessman, Nobel Prize winner, professional athlete, famous novelist, great spiritual leader.....SUCK! There are so many variables. When schools start narrowing the prospect pool by judging, identifying and predicting which students are going to make the greatest societal contributions in the first few years of formal schooling, it really benefits no one. It just widens the gap between the haves and and havenots, creates glass ceilings that must then be broken, and feeds resentment among groups. And for what?

Our school district yielded to parental concerns regarding the influx of urban children into our local schools lowering their standards and quality of instruction. Now the school does this elaborate (BS IMO) assessment procedures to group the best and the brightest together to protect them from the percieved decline. Guess what OUR SCHOOLS ARE DOING WORST, not better. This includes the "smart" kids. Since the ability tracking has started, their scores have gone down too. 4 of the 5 high schools in my area are on "Corrective Action 2", these were considered really good schools just 10 years ago. What ever they are doing...it is not working for ANY group. The gifted kids aren't getting any more gifted and the bottom-feeders are still on the bottom.

Chaotic13
There is no predicting which child will be famous or rich or work a great days work.
Every child had the possablity to be something great.Every child is great in thier own way.
The wonders of them.........
You said "haves and and havenots"
My school district is one of the poorest in the county.
my daughter went on to college
My son ,,,,who knows......he is sent out to a better school thou
payed for by our school
No child is ever a bottom feeder .....
There are so many poor ppl who grew up and made names for themselfs
There are so many poor ppl that already are ahead of the game....
We as parents have to step in and help our kids
I want you to know Please never ever give up hope all these kids are so important
every single one of them
you too
Muffy

[/quote]I want you to know Please never ever give up hope all these kids are so important
every single one of them
you too
Muffy[/quote]

Very important point Muffy, children need encouragement, they need guidance and they need to set goals. If you don’t expect much from your children you won’t get much. We don’t know which child on this planet has the seed of how to cure cancer or the common cold. Each amazing discovery has been by someone thinking a little differently. Expectations are a self-fulfilling prophecy; if the bar is low, the pay out is low, if the bar is high, the pay out is high.

So let your children know every day that you are proud of them and expect them to do their best, set backs are a part of life and temporary, how you deal with them is what sticks with you for life.

I want you to know Please never ever give up hope all these kids are so important
every single one of them
you too
Muffy[/quote]

Very important point Muffy, children need encouragement, they need guidance and they need to set goals. If you don’t expect much from your children you won’t get much. We don’t know which child on this planet has the seed of how to cure cancer or the common cold. Each amazing discovery has been by someone thinking a little differently. Expectations are a self-fulfilling prophecy; if the bar is low, the pay out is low, if the bar is high, the pay out is high.

So let your children know every day that you are proud of them and expect them to do their best, set backs are a part of life and temporary, how you deal with them is what sticks with you for life.[/quote]
(((((AAAAA))))))))))))))))))))) thank you
you are so right too
As every person and child thinks differently you never know which child will think out of the box and bring a mircle to us all
A cure for cancer. Or anything is possable.

When I was at my daughters graduation 3 years ago. I watched the kids go across the stage. The ones who were not going to college.
They said they were going inot the work force. I thought Those are the ones to clap for. I clapped for all.
But those kids did not get as much clapping. I thought how sad.
Thier lifes are just beginning. Any child can go anywheres in life....
Anyone has the Potential to be anything and touch other ppls lifes in such a good way.
Muffy

(((((Muffy))))) You’ve brought up another outstanding point! A person’s job does not define their worth. I know that gifted in this thread applies to those academically gifted individuals, but there’s so much more involved.

And let us not forget that even those special needs kids have skills that are amazing. My eldest was able to hide from us that he was unable to read for several years. When I’d read him a book, he’d intently look at the page and when it was his turn to “read” he’d recite from memory the book word for word, do you have a memory like that? I don't.

((((((((AAAAA))))))))))))))))))))))
thank you . Your son sounds so very much gifted.
You are a very kind person AAAAA and very wise your children are lucky to have you.
In the beginning of this thread that was my point. As i said my Aunt taught both . She always said both we so very very gifted.
She taught high IQ and LD kids. She finally stayed with the LD
In my eyes I think every person has a gift to give. Its inside of them
Sometimes hidding. THats why the schools imo need to do more for all these kids.
Cause we never know which child will be the next Nobel peace prize winner. Or the child who will grow up be a hero.....
Or the child who will grow up and give so much love and support to thier family ...What a gift that is....
Muffy

In reading this thread, I am even more resolved in my decision to homeschool my girls. Our public school system is in need of some serious overhauling.

Cramming 35+ students in one room, with one teacher, a period is about 40 minutes, then some teaching time, that leaves less than a minute per student for one on one time.

In Ontario it is said that about 70% of our students are struggling, 30% failing, yet, they do not get the help they need as the schools have no resources, teachers have no time, and they put these kids in the next grade to struggle even more. Then they wonder why the "behaviour issues" happen...

I shake my head over these issues. My daughter last year had at one point 38 children in her class with one teacher. She was not doing well in spelling as far as I was concerned, so I approached her teacher to discuss it. I was told that they no longer have actual spelling classes, that it is something they just learn as they go along. I was mortified. However, he said that he would provide her a speller to work on at home and would test her once a week. Well that lasted 2 weeks. He just didn't have the time. So we worked on it at home on top of all the other homework.

And homework is another issue. There was a study done not long ago showing the effectiveness of homework. Well, that rattled a few chains around here. However, I was finding that most of the work coming home was not even covered yet in class. This is an ongoing problem now, teachers have a set amount of time to "teach" a subject, then test the kids and move to the next topic. Kids are expected to memorize and regurgitate the unit, and most forget what it was by the time they are half way through the next unit.

Anyway... I could banter and rant about this whole thing for hours and hours... but I won't...

I am just glad I made the decision to homeschool, and I am also glad to see the responses from you all about this issue around education, and how involved we all are, regardless of what grade, IQ, LD (learning difference), etc we are experiencing, and choice of educational options used. Kudos to all of us!

Blessings
Mischka

Mischka – I am very impressed with your decision to homeschool. When the twins were going through their horrible 3rd grade year I considered it but did not think I was qualified to do so. It actually took years of going through their lessons with them at night and a really rotten teacher that forced me to make the decision. I wish that I’d done it sooner. The boys were so eager to learn, my husband would get home between 4:30 and 6:00 and we had lost track of time.

My previous experience with homeschooled children was not positive. Neighbors and co-workers talking about how little the kids actually have to do to meet our state’s requirements for homeschooled kids. Once I made my decision I tried to find out where these people were getting their curriculum. I discovered that their idea of curriculum were those little workbook things that you can pick up at Wal-mart; this was not my idea of a better education.

I did some research and found out exactly what textbooks that the boys would have had, what novels that they would have been required to read and I purchased those books so that if they did decide to go back to regular school, they wouldn’t be behind. It was very expensive, but so worth it. One of the twins has gone back to regular school and the other attends a virtual school which I highly recommend. Fully accredited and the pros of regular school and homeschool combined. I don’t know how old your children are, but when they reach higher math, I’d also highly recommend Teaching Textbooks with cds.

I don't really think the IQ tests mean much of anything, as a child I actualy had a slightly low IQ (97 if memory serves me right) at first school was really hard for me because sometimes I couldn't understand the directions or grasp the material, but then as I got older I gradualy grew out of it, form C/D student to middle school were I was a B/C student and now in highschool were I'm an A/B student (and I only get B's because I'm lazy ) so now instead of picking on me for being dumb people keep asserting that I've got to be some kind of genius in disguise.

everyone is gifted, in their own way.

AAAAA you are quite right. I had a rotten time of it with my eldest daughters grade 5 special ed teacher. She was a nasty piece of work to say the least, my daughter would come home crying...it was horrid. So I approached the school and asked them if I could homeschool her, they said I needed a dr's letter saying she needs to be homeschooled and that I could only do it for a couple of months. What BS that was. Our Education Act basically says that a parent can decide to homeschool their child(ren) at anytime during the year. All they have to do is submit a letter of intent to homeschool to the principal of the school and to the board of education, you can do this anytime and withdraw your child(ren) immediately. However, the school made it very difficult, and as my daughter was doing so well at home they accused me of doing her work for her and yanked the plug. Now I know that I have a legal right to HS my girls. and the laws in Ontario are very good regarding HS families. The nice thing is that you don't have to follow the Ontario Curriculum, you can devise your own to suit your childrens abilities, needs, interests, the only owness is that should in the event you be investigated by the board of ed, you need to be able to show that the children have "satifactory instruction" . It is nice here we have an amendment to the Education Act, called the PPM131, and it is all to do with Homeschooling. It protects all HS'ers. In that it gives guidelines for investigators, and to let them remember that homeschooling does not have to resemble a classroom in a school schedule. It has many variances.

Anyway I digress.

Thank you for your warm thoughts about my decision to homeschool. It is nice to hear.

Blessings
Mischka

This is an interesting discussion.

I have a daughter who is intellectually gifted. What that means for her is that she learns very quickly, and has educational needs that differ from the norm.

In some ways it makes life easier for her than some of her peers, and in other ways it makes life harder for her than some of her peers. It certainly doesn't make her 'better' than any of her peers. Nor does it guarantee her any success in later life - that will depend on her character, her work ethic, her persistence and her own personal goals. And THAT will all depend on, to a degree, her experiencing an environment and educational system that can meet her needs NOW.

If she doesn't experience challenges, she will not learn to overcome them. If she doesn't need to 'work' at learning anything, she will not learn persistence. If she can skate by with doing nothing yet still passing all the tests and exams, she will not develop a strong work ethic... and it is those traits that correlate most with those will become successful later in life and those who will not, not intelligence.

There seems to be a misconception out there that gifted children receive a 'free ticket' by virtue of their intelligence. There also seems to be feeling of resentment towards them. I assure you that 'ticket' does not come cheaply. For my daughter, who is only eight years old, she has paid the price in low self esteem, rejection by her peers for being 'different', and years of frustration with an inappropriate education that bores her to tears and then punishes her for being bored.

I am a strong believer in the right of every child to receive the education and care that best supports them to develop and grow holistically and healthily in body, mind and spirit, no matter what their unique challenges and abilities are. It doesn't matter whether they are gifted, have a developmental disorder, a learning disability, are perfectly neurotypical or are physically disabled - every child deserves that.

And... the sad fact is that the educational systems we have in place are not able to deliver that, and probably never will be.

Well, here's hoping at least....

You are right though, being gifted, high IQ, etc, is not an easier road than those on the opposite end of the spectrum. My IQ last test was 142, if I was able to apply myself at school I got high honours, if I was not happy in a class due to whatever reason, I would almost fail. I was able to do anything I wanted, from science and music to machine shop and woodworking. Didn't matter, I was able to do it all. I was labeled by my peers as a brainer, and a loser, a geek and a weirdo... in any case I was never accepted, except by the geeks.. lol.. I hated school, I loved learning. I still love learning. I am not only teaching my girls, but learning with them at the same time, that and I am currently engaged in a correspondence course on herbology (again.. its a 20+ year study for me).

Not only do I love to learn, I love to share what I learn. I don't "teach" per say, I share knowledge I have gleened myself. I suppose you could say that is teaching, but I don't have an Official Teachers Degree that says I can teach.

pet peeve.. certificates.. why do people put so much faith and trust and power into peices of paper that state someone can do something... I think we should put grades on those,,, this way we know if our Licensed mechanic (for instance) graduated with honours or nearly failed.. hmmm would we prefer a doctor who got 51% overall or 98%? Although that too is not a trusty indicator of their ability/knowledge/etc now is it.. but it is an interesting concept..

Ok, I'm rambling on again

Blessings
Mischka

Being gifted doesn't always equal high achievement. That's why many gifted children don't excel in school. Surprisingly many gifted children also exhibit qualities that often are attributed to a developmental disability such as hyper focusing on a specific subject that interests them. Many have difficulty communicating with their peers because the things that interest them seem odd to other children.

Gifted students need that opportunity to explore in depth and be creative. Unchallenged, they can develop behavioral problems or become poor students due to boredom. Its not just about high achievement.