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Old 01-27-2019, 02:56 PM   #21
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Default Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by sheltiemom2007 View Post
AI in medical diagnosis has not been validated. In psychiatry it is especially dubious since people's symptoms change and drug combinations are unique to individuals and moments in time. You might be able to treat high blood pressure mechanically, but there are many diagnoses, psychiatric included, that require a human ear, sensitivity, and insight. AI gives none of that. Careful what you wish for. You may end up very, very, sorry.

Agreed.

I still think that AI, no matter how advanced or intelligent it becomes, will still fall short in some aspects.

For example, a robot may learn to mimic human emotions but a robot would never have genuine feelings like a human does. Also, a robot may be able to think only logically, but it would never be able to process or understand emotions like a human can.

To make matters simple, a robot could have an inhumanly high IQ, but a really low EQ. Not everything can be understood by pure logic alone. Emotional intelligence is just as important.

So when we get to the point where AI becomes that advanced, the only logical thing for us humans would be to merge with them. Brain implants to augment our human intelligence with AI would bring out the best in both worlds and build the ultimate human. When I made my post about humanity evolving into a race of demigods, merging with AI is how I will see such a feat being accomplished.

When/if such a scenario came to fruition, we would still have plenty of human doctors, scientists, engineers, ETC. These humans would simply be augmented to interface with AI.

Our next stage of evolution is through our technology, not through millions of years of natural selection. I for one, am excited.
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Old 01-27-2019, 03:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: Universal Basic Income

Also, this site might be a good read for some:

Future Timeline | Technology | Singularity | 2020 | 2050 | 2100 | 2150 | 2200 | 21st century | 22nd century | 23rd century | Humanity | Predictions | Events

It is a timeline into the future that based off part fact, part fiction. Each prediction has legitimate sources listed for it's basis. This site, in fact, made me start loving and appreciating science back when I found it about 10 years ago.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:44 AM   #23
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Default Re: Universal Basic Income

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Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend View Post
Agreed.

I still think that AI, no matter how advanced or intelligent it becomes, will still fall short in some aspects.

For example, a robot may learn to mimic human emotions but a robot would never have genuine feelings like a human does. Also, a robot may be able to think only logically, but it would never be able to process or understand emotions like a human can.

To make matters simple, a robot could have an inhumanly high IQ, but a really low EQ. Not everything can be understood by pure logic alone. Emotional intelligence is just as important.
i think there is an argument here, that logic encapsulates emotion in a form of calculated consideration. In being a robot, one is programmed to perform a specific task, rationally inept to vary from this pattern, true to itself in every way. therefore encompassing both EQ and IQ at the peak of perfection.

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So when we get to the point where AI becomes that advanced, the only logical thing for us humans would be to merge with them. Brain implants to augment our human intelligence with AI would bring out the best in both worlds and build the ultimate human. When I made my post about humanity evolving into a race of demigods, merging with AI is how I will see such a feat being accomplished.

When/if such a scenario came to fruition, we would still have plenty of human doctors, scientists, engineers, ETC. These humans would simply be augmented to interface with AI.

Our next stage of evolution is through our technology, not through millions of years of natural selection. I for one, am excited.
I think there is a third kind of intelligence that is being described here. Intuition? Sanity maybe.

Because humanity thrives on competition we will have no choice but to merge ourselves, human or other, to keep up with challenges and practical adversity. Minding our best and worst selves are both god-like and post demigod traits, striving for what is in our reach will always be the natural way. We only mirror ourselves when we are forced to suffer and want or need something unobtainable. Within our own achievements, all is obtainable, but wanting, needing, earning and searching is often lost within emotional boundaries and lack there-of demanding. Clearly, humans and robots would battle only to maintain their existence and to build a better world for themselves, knowing no bounds in numbers. I agree merging is unavoidable, but is is not unlike the underdog (robot, human alike) to stand strong for those who can not.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:45 AM   #24
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50 - 60 years from now will be mid- or late- century, and for me, imagining 2030 is difficult. According to your timeline @DarknessIsMyFriend, that will be 2090 yet time will move as slow as it always has until we get there. The F C C were clueless to the fact the inventions of the television would change how we see the world. Black and white and color television were only so much of an improvement on the radio, but here we are today exchanging more informed live action thoughts and ideas through everyday interactions and occurrences. Yet some still demand more. As your timeline suggests, 50 - 60 years from now, more hardworking folk may be happier working less hours per week at a highly skilled level. Of course there will always be those who put in their 40-50 hpw, and would expect reasonable compensation.

And not to only mention there are those who are immune to rapid change and advancements, but many remain hopeful. What will become of those creatures? Is it fair to say that one cannot exist without the other? Must we all merge to secure our safety and livelihood in an inevitable spiraling future? Or is that all too-far beyond our vision to determine?
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Old 01-30-2019, 11:05 AM   #25
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Daniel Kahneman, a Nobel Laureate, in his book Thinking, Fast and Slow talks about the biases (systematic errors) of humans. Because we are emotional creatures, this clouds our judgments. Algorithms don't suffer from this. He gives examples from the health care and juridical systems how doctors and judges make systematic errors because of their reliance on intuitions, but they refuse to admit that algorithms can do better even when they see the results.
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Old 08-08-2021, 01:30 PM   #26
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Default Re: Universal Basic Income

Came across this old thread while cleaning up my subscriptions, and I thought during these times it's a good topic to bring up again.

There's been experiments with basic income in some cities like Stockton, CA. I saw a headline about it being "considered" in L.A., CA one of the costliest places to live.

COVID really exacerbated the gap between the haves and have nots.

Some people don't even qualify for unemployment or they do yet can't get any benefits. They make it cumbersome to even qualify. Same with any government benefit.

UBI may or may not work, but I think it should be considered on a federal level. It could make a difference between someone ending up on the street....or not.
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Old 08-13-2021, 08:00 AM   #27
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I think that if our current welfare system were easier to access it would help. You have to be really really poor to get help and those of us who could just use a little help are sol.
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Old 08-17-2021, 08:05 PM   #28
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Kind of interesting thoughts here. I'm a simpleton really, but in my Country I do have a disability that I still am on benefits through the Govt, In all honesty, those with even less on welfare, it's not enough to find housing. People have to dig into the alloted amount for food clothing and basic needs to cover rent. I've seen videos where people end up with less than a few hundred dollars to cover everything other than shelter, meaning groceries, which have skyrocketed in price, lucky if you have a phone, no internet, and lucky to be able to buy the luxury of soaps and tp. It really is a sad world, so wishing the middle class could get a hand up, that's fine, but I wish they knew what it's like to live below poverty level. Then if you try to work, good luck finding a job that lets you work minimum hours lest you work a few too many hours and lose the right to disability :benefits" that no one can realistically live on.
And I do think there's good reason we don't have a universal wage. What would people's motivation be? What would they compare their situation to and want to be productive for?
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Old 08-18-2021, 12:18 PM   #29
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I think that if our current welfare system were easier to access it would help. You have to be really really poor to get help and those of us who could just use a little help are sol.
What does sol mean? Is that an acronym?
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Old 08-18-2021, 12:23 PM   #30
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Kind of interesting thoughts here. I'm a simpleton really, but in my Country I do have a disability that I still am on benefits through the Govt
Where are you? Of course you don't have to say.

I'd like to hear from more people in other countries too.
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Old 08-18-2021, 09:45 PM   #31
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Hi nonightowl.... i think sol is short for shyte out of luck
I'd like to not say where I'm from. Right now though, I have a problem that shouldn't be... being on this disability doesn't allow me to give part of my "estate' to my own sons... Can't even live with one because if I charge rent like I'd have to, it's considered income to me. Anyway, in some ways as I think of this idea.... it would be great to have euqality. If mankind could agree that some efforts get rewarded, yet realize not everyone is capable of contributing like more intelligent people can contribute to things like medical needs. flying airplanes.. some of us aren't rocket scientists so to speak. So how would we ever get along. It's so basic..... someone decided at one time to draw a line and start fighting over what they considered "theirs".... when really every human should have their basic needs met. If we could all work 8 hours, play 8 hours, sleep 8 hours.. eliminate the night shifts.. that would be an almost perfect world. It hurts to know some struggle so badly to make ends meet, yet some take for granted the fact they have housing and food. It's a sad world. and politicians aren't ever going to fix it. There's too much greed, and I don't think that will ever change. It's as though no matter what, the "system" has set us up to fail.
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Old 09-01-2021, 09:26 PM   #32
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I don't know about it. Where would the government get all that money? And the U.S. is already having a great deal of trouble hiring people for low-wage jobs like food servers, because of unemployment money for COVID, I think.
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Old 09-02-2021, 12:27 AM   #33
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I don't know about it. Where would the government get all that money? And the U.S. is already having a great deal of trouble hiring people for low-wage jobs like food servers, because of unemployment money for COVID, I think.
I hear w. hat you are saying but I do not think the unemployment money or extensions are keeping people from working. I dont know about your state but in nj there is a maximum amount you can get and thats it. So even if you are a laid off ceo making 8 figures you still max out just the same as John Doe the baker. Years and years ago in 08 when everything collapsed my husband was in his last year of journeyman's school. He did 3 years of teledata and transferred to journeyman for another 4 years. With apprentices you have a set scale. When he started at that time 1st years started at 12$ an hour (in 2000) my husband graduated with a geology degree and worked for environmental consultants. His dreams of living on the edge of a volcano were fleeting because very few average science majors actually get to study their dreams. Reality was science grads worked for firms doing semi-unethical work. So summer of 08 he graduated and he was to earn his full rate of 45$/per hour. That first month was like a dream. We had just bought the house and thought we could breathe a sign of relief. We knew we werent rich and we have always have been careful but the idea of not worrying was so wonderful. Fast forward to the crash and he was out of work for almost a year and 3 months. At that time the max benefit was 575 a week. That was the top tier. I couldnt believe that anyone thought a family of 5 could live on that. My disability was 700/month. We nearly lost the house.

The pandemic is an situation that was poo-pood by most every one until they saw the ripple effect and how it started with a virus and morphed into a life situation that was crippling families. So i think it was an extra 300$ from the feds for a bit. Some states gave some extra too.
So lets say a person gets 550/week and an extra 300$ from the feds. So roughly 3400 gross dollars a month. Not sure how much was taken out for taxes. So using the standard( outdated and not adjusted for inflation) a family of 5 making about 31k is impoverished- not just poor but poverty, 3400 a month means your raking in a whopping 40k a year (no tax taken out yet) 40k a year for 3 kids/2 adults is very poor. Working poor. It is a myth imo that people are staying home willingly to just reap all the riches rather than take a job. It is a myth spun by certain people to perpetuate the sterotype that people needing assistance are really just lazy people that want a handout. Cause ya know that 40k is a life of luxury. Its just letting old uncle sam take care of you while you ignore job searches and eat bon bons on the sofa. And the assistance has already run out or cut off for many. But screw those lazy people. They just need to get up and take care of themselves and if they cant? OH WELL.
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Old 09-02-2021, 04:36 PM   #34
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Yeah, you here business owners griping that they can't hire people because people are getting too much in benefits and so don't want to work.


I'm in Canada. When COVID hit last year and thousands of people lost their jobs, the gov't rolled out a benefit called the CERB which paid 2000 a month and they made it very easy to access it right away. Now 2000 / month is not a lot especially if you live in a big city but it was better than landing on welfare, which is like 700/month in my province. CERB has ended, but the gov't has enhanced and increased eligibility for employment insurance which it needed to do for years anyway. But it's still below what someone working full time at a minimum wage job.

Well what employers discovered and employees were saying was that it wasn't that people didn't want to work, it was that they didn't want to work in bad jobs - poor pay, no security, inconsistent hours, abusive employers etc. Employers offering better wages/benefits had no trouble hiring.

I'm not sure UBI is an answer to inequality, I've heard arguments both ways. I think targeted interventions work better. For example successive federal governments have done a fairly decent job in reducing child poverty and poverty among seniors through targeted tax credits and benefits and they work.


The one group that's completely ignored is the disabled. I'm on provincial disability insurance, and even with the maximum allowable help from family, I barely survive the month, and [part of my part time job salary is deducted from my benefits so while I want to work, I'm penalized for it. And I'm just not well enough to work full time.


A member of parliament was proposing a federal disability benefit, similar to what seniors have, but parliament was dissolved and now we're having an election, so who knows if something similar would be proposed by the next government, and if the provincial disability programs would want to claw it back.

I just hope they do something to address income inequality.
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Old 09-05-2021, 02:17 PM   #35
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I'm seeing lots of "scutwork"--low-paying, physically-demanding jobs like being restaurant works being rejected by people. We need higher wages, even if products and services will cost more.
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Old 09-08-2021, 01:00 PM   #36
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I'm seeing lots of "scutwork"--low-paying, physically-demanding jobs like being restaurant works being rejected by people. We need higher wages, even if products and services will cost more.
It BURNS me up how some politicians say people "don't want to work". Not EVERYBODY can do physically demanding work like working in a grocery store, retailer, warehouse, or fast food place. Yes, they are JOBS but like mentioned, some people can't do that kind of work. They are not lazy, they just have limitations. But it's not a "disability" per se, so they don't need to be accommodated. I can't stand long or work irregular shifts or work till 11pm, etc. I'm too old for that.

The unemployment rate is much higher than reported, I'm sure. Once you run out of benefits, you are not in the system and don't get counted. So of course the government can brag of a "lower" rate. Also, temporary jobs temporarily "pad" the rate.

I hate it when politicians say "It will create jobs." What KIND of jobs?? Temporary, low-paying? It's true we need our bridges, roads, etc. repaired yet these are construction jobs. Good for people who do that kind of work, but can anybody do construction??? Absolutely not! We need a system that works for everybody.

Some adults may not be working due to having to take of children or older relatives, esp. during this COVID never-ending nightmare. Yet I keep hearing how employers are whining they "can't find" people. It's so biased, I don't even listen now.

Not everybody qualifies for unemployment or if they do, it's so hard to apply it's like they don't want to help you. There's been so much fraud of course, like prisoners getting benefits but legitimate claimers are rejected.

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