Self Hatred

I want to ask other guys about a problem I've struggled with since my early teens. It's complicated but I'll try to be brief.

I spent my young adult life in the 90's which had "men suck" as a sort of battle cry. At every turn I saw and heard the oppression of women, gays, and minorities by white men. Women were placed on a sort of pedestal and were associated with everything good about humanity. They were/are nurturing, loving, emotional, compassionate, giving, selfless, beautiful, and so on. Compelling arguments were emerging that seemed to indicate women were even genetically superior to men.

We, on the other hand, were ugly, violent, brutal, oppressive, selfish, sexually shallow, emotionally clueless, and basically the root of all evil.

At some point along the way, I really took all of this to heart. I was sexually confused to begin with due to molestation as a child but I developed an incredible amount of jealousy and envy of women. To this day I wish I was born female but am not a transexual because I would never get such an operation. But the envy continues, as does my own distaste for my own gender.

As women were openly encouraged to explore and love their own bodies (at least in the circles I moved in) I came to see my body as something not unlike a weapon. A disgusting implement of violence against others. And while my penis may be the knife, my sexual needs were clearly the knife wielding maniac.

Incredible guilt formed around needing or wanting my sexual needs to be met. Despite having a willing partner, my sex was still an oppressive element in our relationship and I wished I could just not need sex at all. After all, I didn't want to be another guy hurting women and if I could detach myself from my sexual identity, I wouldn't be. But I have a male sex drive and I wished desperately to be wanted the way a man wants a woman. If only men could be wanted that way.

To this day, I put the needs of my partner before anything I might need or want. I despise my own gender, I envy women, and there seems little I can do to exist peacefully in this world.

So if anyone can relate to any of what I've written here, what do you do about it? How can we be men and exist peacefully with women? How can we be at peace with ourselves? Is it even possible? Is our sex intrinsically violent or oppressive against women?

Any of this make sense?

Cyran0

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Cyran0 said:
Women were placed on a sort of pedestal and were associated with everything good about humanity. They were/are nurturing, loving, emotional, compassionate, giving, selfless, beautiful, and so on.
We, on the other hand, were ugly, violent, brutal, oppressive, selfish, sexually shallow, emotionally clueless, and basically the root of all evil.
As women were openly encouraged to explore and love their own bodies (at least in the circles I moved in) I came to see my body as something not unlike a weapon. A disgusting implement of violence against others. And while my penis may be the knife, my sexual needs were clearly the knife wielding maniac.

Any of this make sense?

Cyran0

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Part of this is because this is what we were always told growing up. You and I are about the same age because I remember the same thing. The funny thing is there are guys that are not like us at all. They are the ones that women are really not happy with, but it seems that these are the guys that women are really after. That is why I posted "38 things every woman should know about men!" In hopes that looking at this list they will understand that we are not savages and we are a kind and caring group. I understand where you are coming from trust me on this one.

Dragon

yeah Cy, ive worked with self-hatred... especially the white guy image.. like i needed more guilt... how do we defend ourselves without sounding like we think we're better than everyone else?

All of this really gets me down and my knee jerk reaction is to just pull away from everyone, my wife included.

And when I'm not pulling away, the other alternative is to try to just not need or want anything from anyone. A sort of abandonment of any kind of self. But then I'm not happy.

So I pull away again and focus on isolated activities like writing. No contact is a sort of no harm no foul approach.

I picture myself standing in the center of a massive room full of dominos. They are everywhere, right up to my feet. If I sit, they fall. If I step, they fall. If I crumble from exhaustion or die on my feet, they fall. So I stand, eyes closed and holding my breath, trying not to be.

Cyran0

Oh yeah, Cyran0, I can definitely understand your feelings...

Cyran,

From the dawn of times we the men have been always labeled the providers/ gatherers / hunters ... in the 90's the movement came about that women were recognized as equals to us in the workplace and in society ...

I understand what you are saying but this battle has started back in the 1930's with the women movement.. My opinion that women are equal to us men ... except on this playing field. As you said women are considered to be the compassionate ones / nurturing ones and etc.

It will take time to change women minds that men are the compassionate ones

First thing i did with my spouse was show her i was vunerable that i have cracks in my armor..

also i asked that she also needs to be the authoritive one in cases a unified battlefront when dealing with our daughter

Now all my friends and their wives always say i wished my hubby was more like you David

One man at a time One day at a time

WE CAN MAKE THE DIFFERENCE AS LONG AS WE STAY TRUE TO US AND NOT FALL INTO THE PITFALLS OF THE GREAT MEN BEFORE US


DAVID

my guess is theyd understand us (all people) if we spoke every once in a while when asked what we think?

I think what's being missed here is that I agree with them. They are all of those traits I listed and historically, we are not. We have oppressed them. Our sex has injured so many. Our gender, historically, is at fault.

And that's my problem.

How can we be men and not contribute to the problem? I don't know about you but I do not see any role models to learn from. There's no precedent to follow. No guidance. No indication of how we should cope with what we feel and want naturally.

Cyran0

cyrano, i dont know about you, but in my process i refused to cast,or accept blame... too much negative weight associated with it.. i prefer to find causes, and reasons, and i think if a fair assessment were taken, there is cause on both sides...

traditionally, historically, men have held the upper hand, is it simply becaues we can physically beat them ( not all of them, some girls can really kick some butt)?

i think its partly because "the weaker sex" has allowed men to be in control...

so, we've had a lot of failures.. can we cut ourselves some slack? many of us really are doing the best we can..

mistakes are rife in history... as a human body, we're learning, growing... no, we havent been perfect, and far from it, but there are those we can use as examples, what about some basic inventions? the wheel?, indoor plumbing?, the printing press..

and women have contributed as well... i think we all can use some blame shaking and congratulation sharing...

both men and wpomen have contributed to the state of world affairs...

i think it would be good to remember that many of the things men do is to gain approval from women... trying for higher status, greater wealth, finer things that we beilieve will attract more of the opposite sex...

to use the current time period as reference, material goods seem to be a beacon to potential mates.. this is not an altogether healthy standpoint as we can now see...

so, we evolve, we learn, we adapt...

I agree Nowhere .......

We can only take care of ourselves .... we cannot change other people and their perspectives ... control the enviroment around you if u can




D

I agree with both of you, its unreasonable and unhealthy to bear the weight of responsibility for what others have done before you were even born, or continue to do that you have no control over. This goes for race as well as sex. I dont buy that argument. It is sort of like the concept of original sin. That never sat well with me while growing up going to catholic school. I screw up enough myself to have to carry someone elses cross. (A lot of religious imagery in this post....ha). Anyway I understand what Cyrano is saying and there are certainly many people who feel that way, but for my own life i reject that burden. As far as women or men posess this quality or that quality, those qualities vary over history and cultures.

Sorry guys, I feel like I've failed to communicate what really concerns me here. It's not the history I'm focused on (though I do recognize the historical plight of women). It's not knowing how to still be a guy while not hurting, using, or objectifying anyone. It feels to me like following my basic biological drives and indeed, my nature, puts me at odds with what women need in order to feel respected.

Maybe an example would help. Men want and need sex more than women (in my experience). It's oppressive and selfish to expect them to have sex more than they want to. But where does that leave us with our own needs? Our only recourse seems to be to disconnect from our own feelings in order to be a good person. But that's hardly satisfying. So without returning to a mindset of "a wife's duty", how do we reconcile the differences between the sexes in a relationship?

This is a simple example but expanded to cover a million different issues, the model holds.

So it's not history that I'm focused on, it's the present and figuring out how to be a guy in a way that eliminates my own self hatred (i.e., allows the male identity to be more well rounded), satisfies my own needs, and treats others with dignity, respect, and understanding.

Cyran0

i think you're on your way already with this Cy, identifying the exact feelings you have can lay out a path for you... so you want to respect women more.... begin by respecting them mmore.. you want more self-dignity... what is stopping you?

i dont want to sound know it all to you... i really want to help man... i think that in life we get these challenges, we're born into times and events we have little control over...

i do feel its part of our personal task and contribution to others as well as ourselves, to work through our personal issues... its a way of making the present a better place for all and while many may not agree, i believe its a responsibility we are obligated to face... for our kids sake...

and you are doing just that.. so, Kudos...

yep, its hard sorting it out, but, oh so important...

no pressure, but in you i can see a great mind with great potential (already pretty accomplished imo) and its not irony that you tagged yourself with such a name as "Cyrano" imo.. its the inner conflict you are doing this battle with and i know you may disagree, but there are men in history you can draw strength from and i also recommend that you use that tool.. its helped me a lot...

so, be yourself, communicate, open doors, knock down barriers... as you said, its not a pastime.. it matters...

Well I think I know where you're coming from…unfortunately.

(In my case it was attending a highly "politically correct" college that seemed to do a number on me.)

Here's my take on it, in no particular order and not trying too hard to make any particular sense:

1) women communicate differently than men
2) women seem to think that criticism is a sign of love
3) men don't
4) feminists can be as full of s**t as male chauvinists (also very intellectually misguided)
5) many men fell into the trap of thinking that if they "agree" with feminists they'll increase their chances of getting play from them, or women in general
6) women's way of respecting another is different from men's way
7) men's way of respecting others often gets interpreted as weakness and low status by many women
8) the central contradiction to feminism, and thus its most crazymaking aspect, is that women want to be "heard" by men…this is only partially true.

Women *do* want to be heard, but if you listen *too much*, they don't respect you. Not very fair, but in my experience, reality.

So where does this leave you (us)? It sounds like you've overinternalized the messages about not using women, objectifying them, etc. *A lot* of this, not all of it, but a lot of it is bunk. Women objectify men ("an ATM machine with a %#@&#!"), use men to make themselves feel more attractive, make other women jealous (*never* underestimate this motivation btw), and so on. Plus, a lot of women like being checked out, they just don't admit it because they don't want to sound like a slut. Also women do want and enjoy sex as much as men, just often not in the exact same way (after the first date, first thing in the morning, etc.) But again, they generally don't say this because they're afraid of sounding cheap. If a women feels like you're exploliting her by having intercourse with her in the context of a mature relationship, then unless you're into some sicko head games or seriously kinky stuff, *she's* the one with the issues…but of course part of being brainwashed by feminists is automatically assuming that it's *you*, not them--and even if it is them, of course it's really you because society as a whole is patriarchal, so either way you're to blame.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this from here. I would just say: women want men too. Your needs and desires are not bad or wrong, it's only problematic if the way you act on them is grossly inappropriate (or illegal). Ignore with every brain cell in your skull men-hating feminists. They are deeply unhappy, which may not be their own fault, but the way they express that unhappiness is itself destructive. Women want a real man who is not a jerk, it just feels like such a fine line for a lot of us a lot of the time. The thing about "objectifying" women can be particularly toxic IMO. It doesn't matter if you objectify them in and of itself, it only matters if it affects how you treat them.

Basically you need to listen to your own voice more, and not so much to women's.