[babyfairyfifi]

Hello all.

As you may know, I've identified my mother as having NPD. She fits every single one of the diagnostic criteria, yet like many people who we suspect to have it, refuses to acknowledge or even consider that she has a problem. But then I'm preaching to the converted, aren't I?

As I understand it, those children brought under the care of a NPD parent are considered to have suffered long term low grade abuse. I certainly, in retrospect can appreciate the impact her NPD had on me , both in terms of self esteem issues and having the urge to please those in authority( amongst other things).
I've come to the conclusion that I can not have a relationship with my mother without being dragged into her gameplay. A life without my mother is drama free. So I've made the difficult decision to step back to save my own precious family structure and my own very precious sanity.
I no longer choose to have contact with her which means I'm relieved of the complications of the drama and emotional gameplay, but I'm now burdened with feelings of guilt.
Everyone is expected to love their parents aren't they? And forgive? But I know that to forgive my mother and accept her back into my life means that I have to sacrifice my life to her to provide her with her Narcissistic supply. I am no longer prepared to do that.

So here I sit , feeling like a bad daughter. ( but a very good mum and wife)

Any feedback?

hi babyfairyfifi

My mother has never been diagnosed, since she has never admitted to needing help...but she fits many criteria for NPD and BPD. I have not spoken to her (or my father, since they live together) for two and a half years. I didn't decide to break it off, but I wrote a (very gentle!) letter to my parents asking for some honest communication about the fact the my childhood was difficult and has something to do with how I struggle to get through life.

I never got a reply, although my siblings assured me that the letter arrived and caused quite a reaction. I expected a huge ball of anger to come my way, but instead there has been dead silence. And since then there has been no contact.

A couple of months into this I heard that my mother's dog, for whom I also had great affection, was dying. I felt extremely bad that I could not reach out to my mother as I knew this would be very hard for her.

But like you, I have had to decide that my own well being requires that I not be in touch. There is nothing but toxicity to be had there. And for me to be the one to reach out again would be just another instance of me apologizing to my mother for her abuse of me. Which constitutes some kind of emotional suicide.

Anyhow, there have been a few birthdays and Christmases go by. I feel bad for a few days every time. What helps the most is usually just to talk to someone who is able to just listen, as in not start suggesting ways to fix the situation. I am fortunate that my siblings support me fully in my need to be apart from my mother.

Sometimes I feel extra guilty about my father, but I counter that with telling myself that he is a separate adult, and if he chose to he could be in touch with me.

It is definitely counter to most cultures to not love one's parents. But in my case, my love for them never reached them. And they had pitifully little of the stuff to offer me, so I figure I don't owe them anything.

Still, a few months ago I was overcome by a little poem that popped up in my head:

Oh no mama, I think we may be there.
The place where you and I must part.
Where I must walk away and leave you to stand alone.
And I won't be coming back this time,
to say those old familiar words:
"It's OK mama, I still love you."
Though it's not that they're not true,
but that I know you never heard them, all this time.

I don't know if any of this will be helpful, but you are not alone in trying to live with this. I guess one other thing I do to ease the guilt, is to allow myself to feel the sadness that is also always there. It isn't that I don't care for/about them...but I seem to be disposable to them...

[babyfairyfifi]

Originally Posted by ripley

hi babyfairyfifi

My mother has never been diagnosed, since she has never admitted to needing help...but she fits many criteria for NPD and BPD. I have not spoken to her (or my father, since they live together) for two and a half years. I didn't decide to break it off, but I wrote a (very gentle!) letter to my parents asking for some honest communication about the fact the my childhood was difficult and has something to do with how I struggle to get through life.

I never got a reply, although my siblings assured me that the letter arrived and caused quite a reaction. I expected a huge ball of anger to come my way, but instead there has been dead silence. And since then there has been no contact.

A couple of months into this I heard that my mother's dog, for whom I also had great affection, was dying. I felt extremely bad that I could not reach out to my mother as I knew this would be very hard for her.

But like you, I have had to decide that my own well being requires that I not be in touch. There is nothing but toxicity to be had there. And for me to be the one to reach out again would be just another instance of me apologizing to my mother for her abuse of me. Which constitutes some kind of emotional suicide.

Anyhow, there have been a few birthdays and Christmases go by. I feel bad for a few days every time. What helps the most is usually just to talk to someone who is able to just listen, as in not start suggesting ways to fix the situation. I am fortunate that my siblings support me fully in my need to be apart from my mother.

Sometimes I feel extra guilty about my father, but I counter that with telling myself that he is a separate adult, and if he chose to he could be in touch with me.

It is definitely counter to most cultures to not love one's parents. But in my case, my love for them never reached them. And they had pitifully little of the stuff to offer me, so I figure I don't owe them anything.

Still, a few months ago I was overcome by a little poem that popped up in my head:

Oh no mama, I think we may be there.
The place where you and I must part.
Where I must walk away and leave you to stand alone.
And I won't be coming back this time,
to say those old familiar words:
"It's OK mama, I still love you."
Though it's not that they're not true,
but that I know you never heard them, all this time.

I don't know if any of this will be helpful, but you are not alone in trying to live with this. I guess one other thing I do to ease the guilt, is to allow myself to feel the sadness that is also always there. It isn't that I don't care for/about them...but I seem to be disposable to them...

Oh Gosh Ripley, that touched my heart.

It really helps to know that there are others out there who understand and who get how it feels to know that your parent just doesn't know how to love unconditionally, like mothers are supposed to? To have to accept that you were NEVER loved and to deal with that. To never have your true love for your parent acknowledged and accepted as it can never be reciprocated.

My half sister ( who is 14 years younger than I) has fallen out with me for daring to be the whistle blower on the' Mother. ' Everyone knew, but no one was prepared to be the one to say it.
I was. I did . I sent that email and I was the one who was told was attention seeking when I told my mother I was raped at 13.
She said I couldn't have been as I showed no symptoms. And I had no time to be raped... All I wanted was a cyber hug and to be heard.

My step father sided with her, ( he had to, he was so much older and dependent on her) and accused me of being an ungrateful child. That hurt, and it also made me doubt my sanity as I ran off to dig out the letter that he had written to me ten years previously saying that my mother needed psychiatric help but refused it after a suicide attempt.
My step father sadly committed suicide himself a few years later, citing not being able to live up to my mother's expectations , as the reason in the note.
So of course my sister has to side with mother, she is all she has ( apart from her own children).

Sigh. It's good to talk.

[GrayNess]

Although I'm not in your current situation, I would say you did right. First, you may have saved your own family. Second, you may have saved and increased your own physical and mental health. Third, you've shown yourself (and possibly others) that you can and have overcome very large hardships and that you can do it again if called upon.

As for forgiving, well it depends and to avoid going into a detailed philosophical debate, I'll give you the bare bones of it. With forgiving comes into question of forgetting. Some people will forgive and forget, others will forgive but won't forget and lastly, some won't forgive and won't forget (although this last one doesn't apply to you). Children can and usually are encouraged to forgive, as are their parents. But that leaves the question of to forget or not to forget.

But you asked in the title of the thread, how to deal with feelings of guilt. I have a simple way for this: I do what I do generally on purpose and I'm not one to instantly jump and do something (although on occasion I will). I'm one to evaluate the pro's and con's and from that, I do whatever the action is. In other words, I'm prepared to live with whatever the negatives are and thus, I don't care about the feelings of my personal guilt. If I do something when I haven't thought it through and as a result begin questioning my actions, I eliminate guilt through another means. If the negatives greatly out-weigh the positives, then I think and figure out how can I get the positives and reduce the negatives. That way, I have removed the guilt because I have fixed all (or however many I can, usually not all) of the problems.

You've made a decision and it's a type that I'd say has an effect of short-term pain, long-term gain. You know that in the long-term, you may be better off and as a result, you'll have to endure some hardships but the benefits may outweigh the hardships (as you said quite clearly in the first post).

[babyfairyfifi]

Originally Posted by GrayNess

Although I'm not in your current situation, I would say you did right. First, you may have saved your own family. Second, you may have saved and increased your own physical and mental health. Third, you've shown yourself (and possibly others) that you can and have overcome very large hardships and that you can do it again if called upon.

As for forgiving, well it depends and to avoid going into a detailed philosophical debate, I'll give you the bare bones of it. With forgiving comes into question of forgetting. Some people will forgive and forget, others will forgive but won't forget and lastly, some won't forgive and won't forget (although this last one doesn't apply to you). Children can and usually are encouraged to forgive, as are their parents. But that leaves the question of to forget or not to forget.

But you asked in the title of the thread, how to deal with feelings of guilt. I have a simple way for this: I do what I do generally on purpose and I'm not one to instantly jump and do something (although on occasion I will). I'm one to evaluate the pro's and con's and from that, I do whatever the action is. In other words, I'm prepared to live with whatever the negatives are and thus, I don't care about the feelings of my personal guilt. If I do something when I haven't thought it through and as a result begin questioning my actions, I eliminate guilt through another means. If the negatives greatly out-weigh the positives, then I think and figure out how can I get the positives and reduce the negatives. That way, I have removed the guilt because I have fixed all (or however many I can, usually not all) of the problems.

You've made a decision and it's a type that I'd say has an effect of short-term pain, long-term gain. You know that in the long-term, you may be better off and as a result, you'll have to endure some hardships but the benefits may outweigh the hardships (as you said quite clearly in the first post).

Thanks so much GrayNess,
that was a very clear and useful piece of advice.

I'll start with the logical and maybe one day the logic of it will filter down to the feeling side of me.
I must say I'm left feeling really envious of those people who have a 'proper' family where they can have normal healthy rows without being disowned and having a catatonic mother afterwards!

I know that I'm being sensible in making this difficult choice, but it has ramifications: it means that I'm depriving my children of a grandparent and an aunt. We have precious little family as it is.
Although my girls are grown, and understand why I had to make the choice, (grandma lives in another country so they don't see her very often; they were party to her histrionics last summer and saw first hand the madness that is grandma,) I feel sad that we can't enjoy family gatherings like other families out there. Oh well.
I'll make the most of our tiny family and start over again from us. Here's to the future! Now I'm looking forwards instead of backwards.

[Rohag]

Originally Posted by Babyfairyfifi

I'll make the most of our tiny family and start over again from us.

Brava, brava!

I severed the bonds years ago before starting to grapple with this issue of my mother possibly/probably being NPD. I still suffer from some lingering guilt. Ironically, my experience of depression and medications generally blunt my emotions, including those guilt feelings that reside closer to the surface.

My son grew up without his one grandmother, and I believe he is better off for it. Had we maintained contact, or even worse integrated my mother into our household, her direct and indirect (through me and my wife) influence upon him would have inevitably been negative, perhaps catastrophically so.

You know the dilemma all too well, Babyfairyfifi. It was a lesser-of-two-evils decision. I came to the conclusion I could not - not would not - be my mother's healer. Nothing I could do, no sacrifice I could make would help her. That made the decision easier, if no less painful.

[babyfairyfifi]

Originally Posted by Rohag

Brava, brava!

I severed the bonds years ago before starting to grapple with this issue of my mother possibly/probably being NPD. I still suffer from some lingering guilt. Ironically, my experience of depression and medications generally blunt my emotions, including those guilt feelings that reside closer to the surface.

My son grew up without his one grandmother, and I believe he is better off for it. Had we maintained contact, or even worse integrated my mother into our household, her direct and indirect (through me and my wife) influence upon him would have inevitably been negative, perhaps catastrophically so.

You know the dilemma all too well, Babyfairyfifi. It was a lesser-of-two-evils decision. I came to the conclusion I could not - not would not - be my mother's healer. Nothing I could do, no sacrifice I could make would help her. That made the decision easier, if no less painful.

Hey Rohag,

Thanks so much for responding and your support. It really feels good to chat with other people who understand the frustrations of having a parent with NPD.

I think it is possibly more common for those who have the condition to be in active denial of it.I cant help feeling that the majority of those with NPD remain undiagnosed. It takes others around them to recognise and come to their own conclusions and take action on an informed conclusion.

I came to mine after stumbling upon the Toxic self love website and reading the authors description of his own life/feelings/personality as a sufferer of NPD and being absolutely gobsmacked that his detailed description of his personality matched my mother in every single way. It left me wondering what my 'real' mother was like before she was bodysnatched by NPD. ..she clearly wasn't this clone of a robot personality that I know to be her now.

This discovery brought me strange comfort. At least I could reassure myself that my 'real' mum ( pre NPD took hold) may have loved me the way I needed her to. It also took away my quest to fix her, which I have been aware of since the age of about 4 when I would be sent into my mother's bedroom after an 'episode' by my dad to bring her out of her catatonic performance sulks. NPD cannot be fixed according to that site, so I'm free of that burden now, and so have stepped sideways to try and help others instead.

[GrayNess]

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

I'll start with the logical and maybe one day the logic of it will filter down to the feeling side of me.
I must say I'm left feeling really envious of those people who have a 'proper' family where they can have normal healthy rows without being disowned and having a catatonic mother afterwards!

I can say for certainty my family isn't a "proper one", although we do manage to have few senseless arguments and these senseless arguments usually aren't severe. Sometimes they are severe but it simmers down after a few days.

I cant help you much more other than giving the logical side because that's what was and still is instilled in me: adhere to the scientific and logical paradigm and apply that to all (or as many as possible) situations.

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

I know that I'm being sensible in making this difficult choice, but it has ramifications: it means that I'm depriving my children of a grandparent and an aunt. We have precious little family as it is.

Correct and all decisions we make, whether big or small, have ramifications and benefits.

You mentioned you have little family left so try to look at the long-term and see what you can do to benefit your family in the long-term.

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

Although my girls are grown, and understand why I had to make the choice, (grandma lives in another country so they don't see her very often; they were party to her histrionics last summer and saw first hand the madness that is grandma,) I feel sad that we can't enjoy family gatherings like other families out there. Oh well.

Since they saw the histronics from your mother and I'm sure you've given some examples from your personal experience and possibly experience from other people to justify your actions, hopefully they have understood that in the long-term, it may be beneficial.

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

I'll make the most of our tiny family and start over again from us. Here's to the future! Now I'm looking forwards instead of backwards.

As important as looking to the future is, never forget what happened in the past. You may forgive but in my books, I may forgive but I'm certainly not going to forget. This doesn't mean that I'll have lingering memories and be a paranoid wreck about that person (I'm not saying you are). However, in my books, don't seal off the past as you'll find that many things that occur in the future will be similar if not the same as ones you previously endured.

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

Hey Rohag,
Thanks so much for responding and your support. It really feels good to chat with other people who understand the frustrations of having a parent with NPD.

I don't see myself as being a prime example to give, however, my father has NPD (although it's never been an official diagnosis). My mother doesn't have NPD. Although he may have it, it's not to a horrible extent and I have been diagnosed with NPD and ASPD. I don't have NPD do a severe extent as I don't get a lot of complaints about it.

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

I think it is possibly more common for those who have the condition to be in active denial of it.I cant help feeling that the majority of those with NPD remain undiagnosed. It takes others around them to recognise and come to their own conclusions and take action on an informed conclusion.

It probably is common for many to be in denial, however, I'm not one to deny what I have. Perhaps I'm in the minority on this, although I see little reason to hide saying I have it when questioned (although in certain situations I will deny it because of the benefits I would receive from denying it). For people who have it, there are different types of NPD and each type would have its own continuum of severity.

As mentioned above, I don't view myself as a prime example to relate to your mother because I may be in the minority in that I don't care about the attention I receive, I don't care about making myself look good, in fact I frown upon those who try to make themselves look good in excess. I've met and gone face-to-face with NPD's at campus and they're the ones who are the glamourous types.

I came to mine after stumbling upon the Toxic self love website and reading the authors description of his own life/feelings/personality as a sufferer of NPD and being absolutely gobsmacked that his detailed description of his personality matched my mother in every single way. It left me wondering what my 'real' mother was like before she was bodysnatched by NPD. ..she clearly wasn't this clone of a robot personality that I know to be her now. Anyways, I'll quit with myself as this thread isn't about myself but rather about you.

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

This discovery brought me strange comfort. At least I could reassure myself that my 'real' mum ( pre NPD took hold) may have loved me the way I needed her to. It also took away my quest to fix her, which I have been aware of since the age of about 4 when I would be sent into my mother's bedroom after an 'episode' by my dad to bring her out of her catatonic performance sulks. NPD cannot be fixed according to that site, so I'm free of that burden now, and so have stepped sideways to try and help others instead.

All personality disorders, including NPD start from an early age. To refer to myself, my NPD came about as a by-product of ASPD.

NPD probably cannot be fixed in the sense that it is completely removed. The reason being that it's been with the person for such a long period of time and during that long period of time, it probably wasn't seen as something that required fixing. So in theory, yes it could be fixed. In practicality, it depends on the severity but more importantly, the willingness for the person to get it fixed.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

I'm now burdened with feelings of guilt.

Why do you feel that you owe her anything?

Everyone is expected to love their parents aren't they? And forgive? But I know that to forgive my mother and accept her back into my life means that I have to sacrifice my life to her to provide her with her Narcissistic supply. I am no longer prepared to do that.

Forgiveness can come after you have healed a bit. I have forgiven my mom but I still hold her at a distance.