[Rohag]

Hello All!

I would like to explore the possibility my mother had NPD in one form or another and also assess my own personality and history in light of her influence.

I've looked at the earlier threads in this forum but would like to explore additional resources and tap into further insights. Thank you.

[Sannah]

My mom is Narcissistic so I have 45 years of experience with this position........

[Rohag]

Sannah, thank you for replying. I don't want to dump an enormous load of questions on you. So, briefly (if that's possible), what would you initially tell a person who suspects their mother was narcissistic?

[Sannah]

Why do you suspect she is Narcissistic? I don't mind questions at all.....

[Rohag]

Thank you. I am no longer in contact with my mother (long story), and I'm a subjective, naturally naïve and possibly manipulated observer. I can flesh out some these suspicions but would like to start with the "official" criteria. Ultimately, this is a selfish exercise in gaining insight into the possible causes of my own intractable depression.

DSM-IV-TR, Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) - possible

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love - probable

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) - highly probable

(4) requires excessive admiration - possible

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations - highly probable

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends - highly probable

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others - unknown/possible

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her - unknown

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes - frequent

I can only say this in hindsight, but my mother was the kind of person to lie or fantasize and apparently sincerely believe her own version of reality. I have second-hand reports she gained the sympathy of various people who gave her money or assistance and then later "turned on" them. It is possible she may have lied to me about my father's will. She several times fraudulently attempted to get me in trouble with my employers (called or attempted to contact bosses to berate/denigrate me). She may have had an alcohol problem but hid it carefully all the years I was growing up. Entertaining, fashion, and social status were exceptionally important to her. My parents' marriage was frequently tense and angry; I learned - again second-hand - that my mother wanted to divorce my father shortly after I was born, but acquiesced in her own mother's urging (demand?) they stay together with a child now in the picture.

I'm getting off track. That's a start.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Rohag

this is a selfish exercise in gaining insight into the possible causes of my own intractable depression.

Hi Rohag, that you think taking care of yourself is selfish could certainly be from a mom who couldn't see beyond her own needs to see yours.

My mom hasn't been officially diagnosed either. I "diagnosed" her when I got my MSW, LOL! My mom makes up reality to suit what she needs. She has never seen a need of anyone else's (okay, maybe a hungry baby). She is very sensitive to hurt (her own). Zero empathy, can't take criticism, knows few details about me (she never noticed some moles on my face, I realized this after I had them removed. I notice a new scratch on my children!), she can't "see" when my dad is sick because she cannot live without him, she never asked me once how I was doing or inquired about me, she doesn't listen, has no real connections with anyone. My mom is not a mean Narcissist, thankfully! She could never purposefully hurt anyone. Her mom was a zombie. My GM died when I was 12. She never spoke to me once. I don't know what her problem was. My mom denies that anything was abnormal about her family. If you ask her about her past you get this very disconnected from reality, short, meaningless answer. You ask my dad about his past and you get a long story with details and emotions.

What this left me with was that I came into adulthood with low self-worth (if your mom doesn't care about you..........), few social skills (because she didn't interact), didn't meet my needs (because you know your needs after a parent takes care of them), anxiety (not much security and comfort when you are left to yourself), having a lot of repressed feelings (because I never discussed how I felt about anything), terrible boundaries (my mom has terrible boundaries, everything is about her. I think that I actually read somewhere that these moms don't see their children as seperate beings, just extentions of themselves.), I didn't live in the moment because I never learned how enjoyable the present is so I escaped into the future or the past. Living in the future is terrible for anxiety! Well, this is all that I can think of for now. Is anything familiar?

[Rohag]

Thanks, Sannah! "Is anything familiar?" Yes...

Comparing Your Mom to Mine
My mom makes up reality to suit what she needs. Mine too.
She has never seen a need of anyone else's.... Hmmm... Mine was very attached to her mother and very possessive of, though emotionally abusive to her father.
She is very sensitive to hurt (her own). Yep.
Zero empathy... Hard to say. She did display great affection for dogs. In fact, I suspect the dogs kept the family together; Mom and Dad couldn't love one another so whatever they had in the way of detached affection got displaced to the dogs. Dad wasn't a narcissist, but he could be quite mean and frequently withdrawn.
...can't take criticism... Nor could mine.
...knows few details about me... Unknown (maybe there's my answer...)
...she doesn't listen... Unknown; I received little feedback from her - but then again I'm introverted. When I was young she was quick to give me gifts, but, in hindsight, that may have been to get me to go off and occupy myself without bothering her.
...has no real connections with anyone. My mom had few friends, and I know at least a couple of those friendships dissolved with Mom angrily blaming the other party.
...not a mean Narcissist... Mine could be mean-spirited, condescending, even heartless in her behind-the-back abuse of others - but only rarely to people's faces (excepting immediate family, ouch).
My mom denies that anything was abnormal about her family. My mom told wondrous stories of the wealth and high social standing of hers. She was unhappy in my choice of a wife from a humble background "who didn't know the finer things in life."

Comparing You to Me
...I came into adulthood with low self-worth... Hmmm... It is genuinely uncomfortable for me to address how I feel and have felt about myself. I fear that underneath my strong self-disapproval there's a massive ego, which I must suppress and for which I must punish myself.
...few social skills... Naiveté and social awkwardness - my special gifts.
...didn't meet my needs... It took me a long time to gain independence, and now I've collapsed back into dependence.
...anxiety... Not so much - at least not conscious of it.
...having a lot of repressed feelings... That was me; still true to a lesser degree.
...terrible boundaries... Hmmm... I'm not sure. Often I've been socially inept and skittish of other people. I've learned to act social parts without really internalizing them.
I didn't live in the moment because I never learned how enjoyable the present is so I escaped into the future or the past. Hard to say...I frequently escaped into my own thoughts and solitary interests.

[Melbadaze]

Yes I too had a NPD mother...I'm at point now where its not so much how that manifested in her...but how its menifested in me, and yes I have an internalised Nmother within my own self now...I'd like to say I'm just a poor victim of this woman, but as an adult I made a lot of mistakes because of the internalisation of her Ntraits...takes a lot of time and rigourious self honesty to begin to break the cycle.....Ive spent 5yrs in therapy telling my story and only now am I beginning to let go of what she did and work on doing what I Need to do for myself...I understand why my Nmother was the way she was, but I still prefer to not have her in my life...

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Rohag

Mine could be mean-spirited, condescending, even heartless in her behind-the-back abuse of others - but only rarely to people's faces (excepting immediate family, ouch).

My mom told wondrous stories of the wealth and high social standing of hers. She was unhappy in my choice of a wife from a humble background "who didn't know the finer things in life."

These sound classic...........

I fear that underneath my strong self-disapproval there's a massive ego, which I must suppress and for which I must punish myself.

Interesting........... Feel that you need to punish because your mom would have punished you for any attention that you would draw to yourself?????

..........

[VickiesPath]

I've been reading this thread with great interest because I had mother issues which I made a conscious decision to put aside for the last five years of her life so that I could have at least some sort of relationship with the woman. It turned out that, 1) I'm glad I did that because 2) she died unexpectedly last year.

But the question I have for each of you is, when you attempt to talk to T about the personal characteristics of your mothers, does T allow you to talk about them and perhaps, express your anger about how these interfered with her providing the nurturing that you needed and did not get? Or does T say something like, "she was only who she was because of something she didn't get as a child" and more or less dismiss your anger?

I am just asking out of curiosity.

[Rohag]

Currently I only have a pdoc, he's shown little interest in exploring my childhood and I haven't pushed the issue. In the past when I've had a T more immediate issues took precedence in our discussions. Consequently neither the pdoc nor the T have directly "dismissed" my mom or any anger I may harbor toward her.

Frankly, I don't feel much anger. Maybe I've buried it so deeply I've lost access to it. My depression blunts all my emotions.

Part of the reason for bringing up the possibility my mom was an Nmom is my personal curiousity why my depression is treatment-resistant. I am considering raising the issue with my pdoc. I believe he would take it seriously, but I can't say for sure. (The other major candidates for why this depression is so deeply rooted are it's being intertwined with sleep and neurological disorders.)

[Melbadaze]

Originally Posted by Vickie in Phoenix

I've been reading this thread with great interest because I had mother issues which I made a conscious decision to put aside for the last five years of her life so that I could have at least some sort of relationship with the woman. It turned out that, 1) I'm glad I did that because 2) she died unexpectedly last year.

But the question I have for each of you is, when you attempt to talk to T about the personal characteristics of your mothers, does T allow you to talk about them and perhaps, express your anger about how these interfered with her providing the nurturing that you needed and did not get? Or does T say something like, "she was only who she was because of something she didn't get as a child" and more or less dismiss your anger?

I am just asking out of curiosity.

My T gets angry as well when I've told her about my Nmother...its me thats tried to defend at times, rather Stockholm syndrome- ish, but T has to remind me she was the adult first....so yeah I've been allowed my anger very much so...and now its not so much anger but mourning the death of the final fantasy that perhaps there was something I could have done to have made her react to me better...but as a baby thats pretty difficult LOL!...my depression is anger turned inward and also the internalisation of my NMothers treatment of me that I re enact on myself...

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Vickie in Phoenix

But the question I have for each of you is, when you attempt to talk to T about the personal characteristics of your mothers, does T allow you to talk about them and perhaps, express your anger about how these interfered with her providing the nurturing that you needed and did not get? Or does T say something like, "she was only who she was because of something she didn't get as a child" and more or less dismiss your anger?

My T's always let me have my feelings without dismissing them. I wouldn't like my feelings being dismissed like that!!!

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by Rohag

Currently I only have a pdoc, he's shown little interest in exploring my childhood and I haven't pushed the issue.

Part of the reason for bringing up the possibility my mom was an Nmom is my personal curiousity why my depression is treatment-resistant.

I would have never healed if I wouldn't have closely examined why I was the way that I was. Understanding is priceless........

[babyfairyfifi]

Working out that my mother had every single trait of NPD, as a 40 year old grown woman, was like being reborn.
At last I had found the answer to my life long question: Was it something I did? The answer was a resounding NO.

In fact, when I stumbled , quite perchance onto an NPD website written by a sufferer of NPD, I was shocked. It was like someone had been a fly on the wall of my mother's life and was describing in intricate detail every aspect of her personality and life. Except the author was a man and not my mother.

It was then that I realised that my quest to fix her had come to an end.
I realised I had never known the real person that my mum was. She had been body snatched by NPD and she had forgotten who she was , and even that she was once someone else.

I have made the difficult choice to walk away from the relationship as years of trying to 'please' or placate had ended in dramatic feuds.
Everyone close to my mother has been pushed away. Her mother, brothers, sister, ex husband no 1, husband no 2 ( committed suicide after a row with her) grand children, myself and the few friends who tried to befriend her through the years gave up after failing to reach her ridiculous expectation and standards of friendship. Only my sister remains, closely tied in the symbiotic relationship that is an NPD vampire relationship. I have my suspicions that she too suffers from the same disorder, or failing that , has clear borderline personality traits.

She loves her dogs too. Dogs seem to be great for sufferers of NPD, after all, they give out adoration without criticism , and put up with abuse and still come back for more.

Life begins at 40? It certainly did for me. I finally grew up and had to walk away from my mother forever to save my own , and my children's sanity.

I'm not sure how to placate my inner child who still cries because mummy never loved her.
The grown up tries to explain that mummy didn't know how to love, but it doesn't really help.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

I'm not sure how to placate my inner child who still cries because mummy never loved her.
The grown up tries to explain that mummy didn't know how to love, but it doesn't really help.

You can come to understand your inner child and what she needs and provide this for yourself so that she can heal and grow and you can be fully integrated........... Do you feel that you can meet your needs?

[Fuzzybear]

Thinking of you

[babyfairyfifi]

Originally Posted by Sannah

You can come to understand your inner child and what she needs and provide this for yourself so that she can heal and grow and you can be fully integrated........... Do you feel that you can meet your needs?

Thanks for that, I think that is a very sensitive and sensible answer.

Yes, indeed , I do think I'm capable of nurturing my inner child and helping her grow up.

Thanks again.

[Alifetime]

Your post reminds me of my Mother. She takes no responsibilty for her actions. I have had two Kidney Transplants and am now lossing my second kidney. She never talks to me about it. Never asks me what I might be feeling about the lose of the second one. My childhood sounds like yours and I have had all of the feelings you are talking about. My Father was a drunk so there wasn't a lot of parenting going on at our house. I was shy all the time because I felt as if I didn't fit in and probably didn't. she often set us off to school with unclean clothes hair that was not combed. She dosn't notice anything that's not her.

I know I haven't offered any advice but wanted to let you know that I have experienced the silent abuse of a narcisist (sp). I am still coping with low self esteem issures. I have a great therapist, so we are working on it.
Good luck
Alifetime

[Grad0507]

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

She loves her dogs too. Dogs seem to be great for sufferers of NPD, after all, they give out adoration without criticism , and put up with abuse and still come back for more.

Agree, but will they take care of one?

[seeker1950]

What this left me with was that I came into adulthood with low self-worth (if your mom doesn't care about you..........), few social skills (because she didn't interact), didn't meet my needs (because you know your needs after a parent takes care of them), anxiety (not much security and comfort when you are left to yourself), having a lot of repressed feelings (because I never discussed how I felt about anything), terrible boundaries (my mom has terrible boundaries, everything is about her. I think that I actually read somewhere that these moms don't see their children as seperate beings, just extentions of themselves.), I didn't live in the moment because I never learned how enjoyable the present is so I escaped into the future or the past. Living in the future is terrible for anxiety! Well, this is all that I can think of for now. Is anything familiar?

Sannah posted the above statements, and all I can say is OMG! That is my exp exactly. I'm 59. I actually did exactly as Melbadaze did, and took care of my mother in my home when she was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I treated her lovingly, told her I loved her, and comforted her till her passing. My sister had a harder time doing this, though she never experienced the amt of abuse I did as the older of the two of us.

I do realize the "mistakes" I made were due to the low self-esteem, the lack of social skills, the anxiety...present all my life, have been due to my history with my mother. For a very long time, I gravitated toward narcissitic men...I really did. Thru a lot of research, I happened upon the NPD traits, and began recognizing my patterns.

As a way of dealing with this in my present life, I've rather limited myself to what might be called "baby steps" in the interpersonal department. I won't go on and on about this, only to say I'm doing well.
Patty

[Rohag]

Originally Posted by seeker1950

Thru a lot of research, I happened upon the NPD traits, and began recognizing my patterns. ...I'm doing well.

Great! That's encouraging