[NothingPeopleDo]

As a child I was left alone to figure the world out on my own. Never any guidance and all the decisions that were made was by myself. Love was not something I ever saw. I know that my parents did, they just didn't know how to show it. Still to this day I wish my mother could just acknowledge what she didn't do. I have even confronted her about this and it wound up causing more damage for me then the help I was seeking. I carry weight that seems to have a habit of sneaking up to me and causing pain every now and again. I'm in that place right now! When I became a teenager that's when I started to spin out of control. In tenth grade I told my parents that I no longer wanted to go to school. Their response was "it's my decision". So guess what I did, no more school. For about three years I stayed out all night and never saw daylight during those times. I was into drugs and hanging out with other troubled youth. I was arrested many times and it was not going to end well for me. I woke up one day and just couldn't take it anymore, I stopped hanging out and actually read the bible to try and help myself in some way. Well that worked for a few months and then I was back to it again. When I hit 19 I met someone who challenged me, who did not put up with my normal ways and it made me want more. I felt something for real for once in my life. She was very tough and put me on notice as soon as I stepped over. I'm now 40, 4 kids later and many stories in between but that girl I met at 19 is my wife of many years.

Skipping forward, I always knew that something wasn't right with me. No matter what I searched I could never find what it was. That was until the day I found out about NPD. When I read into this I could not believe all th emarks I hit. How something could be so exact. First finding out that I may be "disordered" killed me. I struggled for a long time with this. How can I have this, how can I completely change this and all the crazy thoughts that go along with it. I went to therapy, I opened up about things and I even cried during one session. Yet no matter what I spoke about it always seemed that the one sitting across from me couldn't get it. Even when I would spell it out I would get looks of complete non understanding. This went on for about a year as well as a Pdoc and medicine. I finally had enough of her and decided to try someone new. The next one I actually spoke to on the phone at first in an interview style. I questioned her about things that I was looking for and she did well, at least I thought she did. I then went to her for about a year and the Pdoc she recommended. She was even worse then the first. She tried to turn everything into something she understood cause she could never get me. I do know that therapy works by putting what you want in to get out. The truth is I opened up and got those looks from both Ts, how are you going to help someone you can't understand. It seems to me that you would need to specialize in 1-3 things at most not the specialty lists that contain 20-30 skill sets. Sure therapy is great for depressed people, marriage issues and children problems but what about people like me? Who is really helping us. I was prescribed so many medicines. None did a thing for me other than some making me worse. I finally just ended all of that, no more wasting time. It has now been a couple of years since doing this. I am no better than I was, I at times make myself believe I am but I know i'm not. Yes, I can realize when i'm doing wrong much better now but I am nowhere near what I should. I was speaking with my wife yesterday about all of this and she made a point that was spot on. I am who I am because I just gave in. I have! I have accepted that I am hurt and that I have not tried to change myself because it is too hard. Why am I letting this stay, how do I really figure out how to get it gone? You see I have a secret to all the ones who think we are such evil people. I have feelings like you, I hurt like you maybe worse at times. I do not want this. This is like having the weight of the world on your shoulders at all times. I hate the fact that I can show my wife love at times and with a flip of a switch I am cold, distant and dark. I don't pick the times this happens, it's something that just comes and goes. I question myself all the time if I am doing the right thing for my kids. My wife asked me how I would be today if I never knew what I was. The truth is it would be much easier. Probably still thinking something was off but nothing that big. Finding out what I am opened up a whole new world for me. I have a long way to get where I need to be and I don't know for sure if I can. Having feelings of nothing is not such a great thing, especially on days when I have the opposite. I am leaving out many details but I hope your getting the big picture. It's just so easy to fall back into our comfort zone.

I did not choose this, nor did any person with any disorder. We have our thing as a way out from something early on. Next time when you say how evil someone like me is why don't you take a deeper look into it. Do you believe that we want these things? You see right now I am speaking from my emotional side. This does not happen very often, tomorrow I may be different. Back to feeling i'm on top of the world and showing a much different side. Sorta like the push and pull methods we hear about lol. If today I had a choice to be different, to allow myself to always feel emotions, to understand others, to be fair, to worry about people more than I do myself I would take that option every time. I know most will never "get me" and I wish that wasn't the case. Being different like this is not great. Just know that I do hurt and I wish I didn't have to. At the same time this pain brings on things to make me want to be better so I guess it's a double edge sword. Day by day and take each one as a moment to try something new. My new, New Year resolution.

My story here is pretty vague but only because if I went into details I would be here way too long. I am open to answering any questions if there may be something you want to know more of. Anyway thanks for reading.

[here today]

Thank you so much for writing this. I had "cut off" my narcissistic self and had a false self focused on others, but the disorders are somewhat similar. I "found" my narcissistic self in many ways by hanging out in this forum. I believe everybody has one, but "society" doesn't like that -- "society" can't function if everybody is in their narcissistic self. But cutting off, denying, pretending it's not there isn't a way to go either, in my opinion.

So -- the psychologists and "elites" deny it, despise it, etc. It goes underground, unconscious. And we in the U.S. end up electing a president who, to me, is clearly narcissistic!! Disorderedly so, in my amateur but well-read opinion. Still, very intelligent, obviously, and hopefully he won't get us into a world war!

So, being focused on others and being a "good girl" and doing things the "right way" I've "gone to therapy" when things weren't going well for me -- but in the end, with the last therapist who I stayed with for 6 years -- she didn't get me, either. And all those years of therapy, trying to "change" -- I now believe the trouble was that I'm temperamentally a nerd and that all the socially-conscious women in my family and the culture I grew up in just couldn't accept me, didn't "get" me, didn't want to "get" someone so different. Really, really sucks. Really, really hurts. What a waste of my life, it feels like.

The two narcissistic "parts" of myself that I am learning to accept are now more like impulses. One says "I am great!" The other says "If you hurt me I'll hurt you back."

Those are, in my view, necessary biological impulses. In a healthy social environment I believe that children can usually grow beyond them to have an identity that includes a larger community. But those two are a starting point for individual, biological survival.

I gave mine up, so to speak, in order to have the approval and non-abandonment of my family. That can end up with being what you have called "weak-mindness", although I definitely bolstered myself with my intellect.

There's been a lot written in recent years about emotional intellegence. I think narcissism taps into what might be called "visceral intelligence". Something that evolved and that we (apparently) need for individual survival. And we better start getting a handle on that or the society and all the individuals in it are going to go down the tubes!

OK, that's my idealistic soapbox. May not attract a lot of admirers or attention. But it's the truth.

On a more immediate level, what do you think it's important for other people to understand about how narcissists function and go about living. It certainly sounds as if you love your wife and children? Or how would you describe any feelings you have for them?

[NothingPeopleDo]

The love I hold for my wife and kids is larger than anything. The problem I have is that sometimes I feel nothing. I go into a mode that the best way to describe would be like I was dead(inside). If I am in emotional state and I see my wife sad it really bothers me. On the other hand if we're fighting and I see her sad I feel nothing. I know how mean and cold I can be and when i'm there it's very difficult to work around. I have to work on gaining emotions when I do not have them. It sounds strange as I write this so I hope someone understands as it may be impossible to fully explain. Maybe as a "Narc" my love may be different then someone else. I do know that it is real for me regardless. My wife and I have a very special bond. She's the who has saved me, taught me and makes me want to be a better person.

[here today]

I could go into that mode, too.

The "polyvagal" theory in neurobiology explains it but that hasn't resulted in any reliable, easy therapy to change it, to my knowledge. Maybe in a few years, IDK.

Because I could go into that mode, it made me wonder if any of my love was real, too. Now that those impulses are more "included" in me, I know that that's all they are, and that my love impulse is real, too. So I would guess that's the same with you, but of course since I'm not you, I don't know.

Mean and cold -- I could definitely be like that. Shocked me. Terrified me. So, nerdy problem-solver that I am (mostly) I tried very hard to stare it in the face and get to "know" it. Very difficult. Therapists couldn't stand me when I was in that state, either. I developed some control in allowing it "on" rather than it just taking over, and went to therapy wanting help with that among other things but then even the last therapist, a trauma and dissociation specialist, couldn't take it either!!! What the F...? For me, since I could turn it off, that seemed really stupid. Still does.

It just needed to be included. In me, eventually, if nowhere else. Blaming me for it in therapy just repeated what my family had done.

I'm guessing that state is what the narc-blamers are afraid of, disgusted by, etc., in themselves, too -- there are a lot of ways to cover it up and pretend, many not consciously. But if it's a basic survival level thing, it's biologically NOT going away, short of some very bad brain surgery I expect.

Accepting it is really tough -- when you have the other feelings, too. But when I could look on that state as a survival function, it's bearable, sort of. Also, I could go into a nerd state to try to observe it. Nerd states don't have many feelings either, except mostly curiosity.

How does you wife understand that aspect of you? She must see good in you, too?

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by here today

Thank you so much for writing this. I had "cut off" my narcissistic self and had a false self focused on others, but the disorders are somewhat similar. I "found" my narcissistic self in many ways by hanging out in this forum. I believe everybody has one, but "society" doesn't like that -- "society" can't function if everybody is in their narcissistic self. But cutting off, denying, pretending it's not there isn't a way to go either, in my opinion.

I'm not sure I agree. It sounds a little like your confusing "healthy narcissism", usually-harmless self-interest and self-preservation with the malignant, empathy deficient kind of narcissism. Rather cynically, I might add, casting self-focus as a bad thing.

I don't think people's other-focus is always fake; in my own case it sometimes really troubles me how shallow my feelings towards others can be.

The two narcissistic "parts" of myself that I am learning to accept are now more like impulses. One says "I am great!" The other says "If you hurt me I'll hurt you back."

Those are, in my view, necessary biological impulses. In a healthy social environment I believe that children can usually grow beyond them to have an identity that includes a larger community. But those two are a starting point for individual, biological survival.

I think I snipped some parts where you suggest that we need to be more in touch with our "narcissistic" side, but here say that a healthy (i.e. good) environment, children will grow beyond that aspect/integrate it with interdependent relations?

I'd also contest those are the starting point of individual survival, outside of abusive or dysfunctional situations...

[here today]

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

I'm not sure I agree. It sounds a little like your confusing "healthy narcissism", usually-harmless self-interest and self-preservation with the malignant, empathy deficient kind of narcissism. Rather cynically, I might add, casting self-focus as a bad thing.

I don't think people's other-focus is always fake; in my own case it sometimes really troubles me how shallow my feelings towards others can be.
. . .

I agree that people's other-focus is not always fake. Nor is mine, necessarily. Just sometimes I can have an other-focus which is co-dependent, focusing on and "taking care" of another person's needs rather than my own. But when it's co-dependent it's really about my needs in a unaware, roundabout way that's still sometimes hard for me to tell.

The other thing, too, is that in the family and culture that I grew up in, self-focus WAS always a bad thing. That's a kind of conditioned value in me that CBT has been inadequate to help with. Coming up with reasons why a self-focus is OK and even necesary, like it helps people survive, has helped me accept it.

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

I think I snipped some parts where you suggest that we need to be more in touch with our "narcissistic" side, but here say that a healthy (i.e. good) environment, children will grow beyond that aspect/integrate it with interdependent relations?

I'd also contest those are the starting point of individual survival, outside of abusive or dysfunctional situations...

I'm certainly interested your reasons for contesting the idea that the two self-focus impulses I described are not a starting point for individual survival.

In my life, those two are related to how I felt when I was 3 and was traumatically held down on the operating table while I was kicking and screaming alone, just doing what I was doing but can describe now as fighting for my life, which I felt was under threat. It wasn't, but the situation was one in which I couldn't tell for sure and didn't trust. Seems like a biological, survival response to me.

All I can say is that when I feel the "I am great" impulse, which was declared universally and always bad for females in my culture, and my "if you hurt me I'll hurt you back" impulse, which was viewed as horrible and unChristian -- it feels to me like they come from how I felt when I was on that operating table, with nobody around to trust or turn to and I was on my own.

So if people grow up in abusive or dysfunctional situations and end up with those attitudes being predominant in their lives, then I believe that may be understandable.

But the more opinions and points of view we can have, the better we may eventually be able to understand narcissism, healthy and otherwise. Which I think would be a good thing. So, please, continue to critique or debate what I say.

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by here today

I'm certainly interested your reasons for contesting the idea that the two self-focus impulses I described are not a starting point for individual survival.

In my life, those two are related to how I felt when I was 3 and was traumatically held down on the operating table while I was kicking and screaming alone, just doing what I was doing but can describe now as fighting for my life, which I felt was under threat. It wasn't, but the situation was one in which I couldn't tell for sure and didn't trust. Seems like a biological, survival response to me.

All I can say is that when I feel the "I am great" impulse, which was declared universally and always bad for females in my culture, and my "if you hurt me I'll hurt you back" impulse, which was viewed as horrible and unChristian -- it feels to me like they come from how I felt when I was on that operating table, with nobody around to trust or turn to and I was on my own.

So if people grow up in abusive or dysfunctional situations and end up with those attitudes being predominant in their lives, then I believe that may be understandable.

But the more opinions and points of view we can have, the better we may eventually be able to understand narcissism, healthy and otherwise. Which I think would be a good thing. So, please, continue to critique or debate what I say.

The bit in bold was my entire point - I'm not sure it applies to people who didn't have traumatic or dysfunctional upbringing.

[here today]

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

The bit in bold was my entire point - I'm not sure it applies to people who didn't have traumatic or dysfunctional upbringing.

Thanks, fair enough. I had a somewhat traumatic and dysfunctional upbringing even if my narcissism was kind of cut-off or covert rather than the direct, grandiose type.

I guess what concerns me is here we have a new president who seems, to me, to fit the criteria and lots and lots of people voted for him. Why is that? I'm wondering if those impulses "I am great" and "if you hurt me I'll hurt you back" are somehow feeling depressed in his supporters, unable to express themselves or find appropriate outlets because of their current real-life situations and hence, they find his outspokenness and expression of those attitudes attractive. This seems to have happened before, in other countries, from what I have been able to find on the internet.

It's extremely scary to me, I'm not sure this is the forum for it, I know PC doesn't like political discussion, but this isn't politics exactly. (And I'm neutral -- I didn't vote for either major party candidate.)

Or, anyway, I'm not the OP so I don't know if any of this discussion is relevant to that.

[Atypical_Disaster]

I can't read all of this right this second as I have a headache, but there's some things I can relate to. Love was never shown to me either, not genuine love. The twisted version of love is what I learned.

I can relate to the sense of knowing that something is "off"/"different" about you but not knowing what it is.

Nobody chooses to have any disorder. What is a choice is how you or I or anyone else chooses to deal with the disorder. The disorder itself isn't evil. The behavior that can and does result from it is what is considered wrong and in extreme cases "evil".

"Evil" is a concept that's been on my mind lately, go figure. Most people do see me as evil. It's not a word I use lightly. I don't think you're evil. You did what you had to do to survive. It's what I did. It's what we all do. The irony is of course that nobody gets out of life alive.

[Fractured Infant]

No body gets out of life alive, ha ha I like that. To original poster and all, thanks for sharing your stories. My life is very similar to original poster, my wife has saved me and has also paid a great price for it. She has finally run out of strength after three kids and 25 years of madness, and I have after so much searching finally found what the real problem was. I hope to improve and make things right. I do have emotions but they are guarded protected and many times inaccessible. Anyway I haven't slept much the past week since I discovered NPD. Just wanted to say thanks for sharing it's nice to know I am not alone.

I think there are many bones to dig out of the closet and if I dig them up I hope it will allow my emotional side the courage to stand with me every day and let the air out of my ego to know he is no longer needed. I also hope to right the damage I have done, give back the things I have stolen from my wife, and make sure I don't pass this on to my kids. Hope to discuss more with you.

[Atypical_Disaster]

I do have emotions but they are guarded protected and many times inaccessible.

You're the exact opposite of me in this area. I have a very shallow emotional life, if you even want to call it that. I hide it pretty well though by mimicking "normal" emotions, but inevitably someone who is observant will realize something isn't right if they are around me for long, even if they don't figure it out entirely they still sense it.

I think there are many bones to dig out of the closet and if I dig them up I hope it will allow my emotional side the courage to stand with me every day and let the air out of my ego to know he is no longer needed. I also hope to right the damage I have done, give back the things I have stolen from my wife, and make sure I don't pass this on to my kids. Hope to discuss more with you.

I have many skeletons in my closet, everyone does. It's part of the human condition.

One of my ex's accused me of literally having skeletons in my closet. That still makes me chuckle even though it was so long ago.

The damage is already done. I know that sounds harsh, but it is true. What you can do now, is learn what you need to learn. Do that internal work on yourself. If you cannot love yourself, you cannot love anyone else. By that logic, learn to empathize with yourself first. Otherwise? Good luck feeling genuine empathy towards anyone else.

If you have any questions or want to hear thoughts/opinions about a certain topic you can always ask around here.

[Fractured Infant]

Atypical Disaster

I really do appreciate your time and insight!! The bones in the closet really gave me a chuckle!

I have this recurring dream where the police are on a manhunt for a serial killer, he is doing horrible brutal atrocities and they cant seem to catch him, as the dream goes on strange events occurs that makes me feel closer and closer to what is happening. Finally just before I wake up I realize that I am the serial killer.

My wife does not like to hear about this! I can't blame her. I think it means to me how capable I am of doing dark and hurtful things, how I can't see what I am doing until its too late, and how actually scared I am of doing those things and I wish it would stop!

I understand about self love, just not sure how to achieve it. You know I think I'm okay but it doesn't go away. Than you think will it actually be different this time?? I wish I could go back in time and give myself a hug and tell myself its okay to feel scared and that everything will turn out fine. I wish I could do that, I just don't know how.

Thank you for sharing your story and insights, they are truly helpful and I can tell you have battled your demons and if not won at least got the upper hand. You inspire me. Thank you.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Atypical Disaster

I really do appreciate your time and insight!! The bones in the closet really gave me a chuckle!

Not a problem. I have a few stories like that, dark certainly, but nonetheless entertaining if you have any sense of humor at all. I told that ex that even if I did have actual skeletons in my closet, that I'd certainly need to clean it out. I've heard that decay doesn't smell good. The look on her face was priceless.

I have this recurring dream where the police are on a manhunt for a serial killer, he is doing horrible brutal atrocities and they cant seem to catch him, as the dream goes on strange events occurs that makes me feel closer and closer to what is happening. Finally just before I wake up I realize that I am the serial killer.

This is the most fascinating recurring dream I've read about in awhile.

I wonder why your subconscious is bringing up the concept of serial murder? Being a serial killer is but one of many ways to be labeled as incurably evil. Though, that being said, a serial killer in society's mind does tend to be the ultimate archetype of evil... that and pedophilia.

My wife does not like to hear about this! I can't blame her. I think it means to me how capable I am of doing dark and hurtful things, how I can't see what I am doing until its too late, and how actually scared I am of doing those things and I wish it would stop!

Well, she is emotionally normal. The thing is, a concept like dreaming about being a serial killer wouldn't bother me, it will certainly disturb most people. Your wife is probably reasonably concerned to hear about her husband having dreams that go to such a level of darkness.

Here's the thing though, anyone is capable of anything given the right set of circumstances. Most people don't want to admit this, "oh I could never even THINK of killing someone!"... it's denial on their part.

From this superficial understanding of your dreams, it sounds to me like you're worried that you've already crossed the line. That you're somehow evil. Incapable of ever doing anything but cause destruction and pain. If I am wrong, by all means, correct me.

I understand about self love, just not sure how to achieve it. You know I think I'm okay but it doesn't go away. Than you think will it actually be different this time?? I wish I could go back in time and give myself a hug and tell myself its okay to feel scared and that everything will turn out fine. I wish I could do that, I just don't know how.

Actually, you're already taking steps subconsciously to achieve it.

You've just expressed a desire of giving yourself what you needed in the past what you never received. That tells me, you are on some level empathetic towards yourself.

Thank you for sharing your story and insights, they are truly helpful and I can tell you have battled your demons and if not won at least got the upper hand. You inspire me. Thank you.

I'm glad to be of help. I have the upper hand on my demons, as my particular condition has no known cure.

[Open Eyes]

As a child I was left alone to figure the world out on my own. Never any guidance and all the decisions that were made was by myself. Love was not something I ever saw. I know that my parents did, they just didn't know how to show it. Still to this day I wish my mother could just acknowledge what she didn't do. I have even confronted her about this and it wound up causing more damage for me then the help I was seeking.

This makes me wonder if your mother was/is a narcissist. Especially considering how your mother could not admit what she did not do "for" you. You took the time to tell her and once again she failed you.

So, you have this label and it has this stigma to it that says "bad person". So your mother failed to nurture you the way you needed and deserved making you feel bad and now you find out you are a bad person and you are devastated? That is the reaction that I noticed when I stop by and read threads in this forum.

First of all, what would be helpful to you is to learn about child development. When it comes to diagnosing narcissism they don't consider it until someone is an adult you know why? That's because as a child develops they see themselves as the center of the universe where everything revolves around "them". So, that means that all children are in fact narcissistic. So, what that means is everything is about the "I". This is in fact NORMAL.

There are a couple of ways that an individual can become challenged when it comes to the way they see the world and others in it. If a parent teaches a child that they are "the greatest" and "better than everyone else", the child begins to see the world and others around them that way, that is because that is what their parents taught them. I have seen parents of means make sure their child is "the best" and "the winner" and they demand that when it comes to others that are exposed to that child in a "learning" way. Their child simply always has to have the best. So, considering that children see the world as revolving around "them", these parents encourage their child to develop that and believe they are "entitled" and better than everyone else. To them other people are just objects to be used for THEIR benefit. That's not "healthy" narcissism.

But, that is not what you are describing and actually I don't really see those kind of narcissists interacting here. Well, they are much too good for that I guess.

What I see here are individuals that are narcissists because they were neglected or abandoned in some way and even abused, way back when the world revolved around them and they really were on their own. No one told them they were "special and important and loved", SO, somehow they had to find a way to create that for themselves. All the while these individuals are hiding that part of them that questions their true worth. They continue on doing their best and a part of them hides anger and fear. Then, one day someone of some kind of authority says to them "you have NPD" and they look it up and recognize the symptoms and their worst fears surface in that they are considered a BAD person.

I think that's CRUEL.

[Open Eyes]

I guess what concerns me is here we have a new president who seems, to me, to fit the criteria and lots and lots of people voted for him. Why is that? I'm wondering if those impulses "I am great" and "if you hurt me I'll hurt you back" are somehow feeling depressed in his supporters, unable to express themselves or find appropriate outlets because of their current real-life situations and hence, they find his outspokenness and expression of those attitudes attractive. This seems to have happened before, in other countries, from what I have been able to find on the internet.

It's extremely scary to me, I'm not sure this is the forum for it, I know PC doesn't like political discussion, but this isn't politics exactly. (And I'm neutral -- I didn't vote for either major party candidate.)

Well, I think it's important to be able to discuss this and try to understand it. For myself, I really did not know very much about this individual. When the primaries began there was a lot of focus put on him. Well, I like to study human nature and learn so I began to make it a point to observe this individual, after all, he sure was getting a lot of attention. No doubt about it, he sure was different. Reminds me of that commercial for that alcohol "The worlds most interesting man".

Well, he sure does draw all the focus on himself, however, I did notice how the media assisted with that. I did not know what to think and I prefer to hold back on making quick judgments tbh. At times I thought, "is this for real?". I made it a point whenever I could to ask different people what they thought. I was very surprised to find out how individuals "liked" him. Yet, it was not so much liking "him" but what he was pointing out that different individuals would respond to with "he is right about that".

What this individual tapped onto was "anger and frustration". I kept hearing from different individuals "he should not have said this or that but he is right about this and that". I kept learning things by asking different people what they thought. I learned that what a lot of people had was frustration and that they were struggling to make ends meet and many felt oppressed. The people I came across were all working class and business owners which included doctors and dentists and individuals that "were" educated despite what was described of who the supporters were.

A lot of people did not want another X too. Sigh....I find myself trying not to use names and instead focus on what I learned from asking different people for the endurance of the primaries and the election. I also began to realize how tired a lot of people are with ideological thinking. A lot of people are sick and tired of the ongoing dysfunction of the X vs. Y and how so much focus was put on that that it was getting depressing and it certainly was not doing anything to improve their challenges to be sustainable.

I knew he had a growing following, I learned that from asking and listening, but I did not know there were enough of these individuals that would tip the scales to his direction. When people are struggling to sustain and are stressed and depressed they care about "how" that can be improved more than they care about "flaws" in someone who is not the typical "politician" that has lots of experience in saying the right things and playing that same game that a lot of people had gotten tired of. Do these people really care about his tax return? Not really, what they care about more is their own. It isn't even that these people don't care about the needs of others either or that these people are selfish and stupid or a bunch of deplorable narcissists.

I think for a lot of people, they saw flaws in both of the candidates and it was not the slam dunk decision when it came time to make a decision to vote.

Sorry to get a bit off topic but considering how much the label NPD is tossed around these days, I think it should be ok to touch on that part at least.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

. . .
What this individual tapped onto was "anger and frustration". . . I learned that what a lot of people had was frustration and that they were struggling to make ends meet and many felt oppressed. The people I came across were all working class and business owners which included doctors and dentists and individuals that "were" educated despite what was described of who the supporters were.

. . .I also began to realize how tired a lot of people are with ideological thinking. A lot of people are sick and tired of the ongoing dysfunction of the X vs. Y and how so much focus was put on that that it was getting depressing and it certainly was not doing anything to improve their challenges to be sustainable.

. . .When people are struggling to sustain and are stressed and depressed they care about "how" that can be improved more than they care about "flaws" in someone who is not the typical "politician". . . what they care about more is their own. It isn't even that these people don't care about the needs of others either or that these people are selfish and stupid or a bunch of deplorable narcissists.
. . .

Thanks, Open Eyes.

To get back to the topic of this thread I think being "all about me" sometimes is a survival motive or attitude, and that's OK. I suspect it's there because it helps people survive. As you said, people care about "their own" first. I believe that there should be no shame in that and to the extent that some of us were shamed for that growing up it caused, at least in me, dysfunction so -- I think it's fair to say -- I did not reach my potential as a human being or a citizen, and remain very depressed.

I also appreciate your point about ideological thinking. Ideology can help draw people together, perhaps, but when people are concerned about survival, safety, and prosperity issues -- very understandable, to me, that that's not the top of their list.

These types of concerns fall in line with what a narcissist naturally does, it seems to me, more so maybe than some other people. People are different, there is or can be, I believe, value in all of us. I'd like to try to look more for that rather than flaws, though that doesn't mean denial of "flaws" -- just a difference of focus.

[Atypical_Disaster]

I have a question related to this discussion, what does good and evil really mean for all of you?

[here today]

You first!

But, not to be too shy about this, I think that the concepts of good and evil come from intuitions that many people have about acts between people or within a society.

If somebody was the only person in the world, what would count as good or evil? It’s hard for me to conceptualize.

My guess is that people who have intuitions about what is good and evil also care about others and/or the society as a whole. If somebody does not care about either of these things, in an emotional sense, then the concepts may not make much sense.

This suggests a possible paradox or a dilemma: if a person does not care about other people, pets, the planet, etc., and only about themselves, then when they hurt another person or life or the planet, can they perpetrate moral evil or only “natural” evil, like attacks by wolves or natural disasters like tsunamis?

Either way, people who care about others will often care when others are hurt, too. Many folks may count that as “good”. Which people who don’t care won’t understand – except intellectually, when the concepts are explained by people who do care about others.

People who do not care about others may hurt them with pleasure or at any rate without conscience in ways that people who do care cannot understand, or “empathize” with. Does that mean that the people who do not care are “evil”? Or just that they do things sometimes that people who do care consider “evil” acts? People who do care sometimes commit evil acts, too, so what’s the difference? Maybe it’s the feeling of remorse that people who do care can sometimes feel. Maybe it’s the lack of remorse on the part of people who don’t care which results in people who do care labelling people who don’t care “evil”?

Just kicking some ideas around.

[Open Eyes]

People who hurt/abuse helpless children and animals, that's evil.

[Fractured Infant]

Good and evil ... great question!

I agree the ideas of good and evil are social constructs, the acts of one individual that only effects themselves are neither good or evil.

To me it's simple. Harming another is evil, benefiting another is good.

There is also scale: how much harm or benefit was done? More harm = more evil

There is also point of view: a person may think they are benefiting another while the another feels harmed. In this case I think the person acted on trumps, i.e. If they felt harmed than it was evil.

There is also intent: if the harm was unintended it is less evil than if it was purposeful. If the help is intentional is is better than if it is accidental.

As a narcissist I have put my own wants ahead of those close to me and caused them harm in the process of getting what I want. That is evil.

Originally Posted by NothingPeopleDo

The love I hold for my wife and kids is larger than anything. The problem I have is that sometimes I feel nothing. I go into a mode that the best way to describe would be like I was dead(inside). If I am in emotional state and I see my wife sad it really bothers me. On the other hand if we're fighting and I see her sad I feel nothing. I know how mean and cold I can be and when i'm there it's very difficult to work around. I have to work on gaining emotions when I do not have them. It sounds strange as I write this so I hope someone understands as it may be impossible to fully explain. Maybe as a "Narc" my love may be different then someone else. I do know that it is real for me regardless. My wife and I have a very special bond. She's the who has saved me, taught me and makes me want to be a better person.

I struggle with detachment too. What helps me avoid being cold has been falling in love with kindness and understanding others. I think kindness appeals to most people. I try to practice empathy on purpose, and impulse control. When I feel detached from someone else during an argument, I try to imagine what they're thinking and feeling, and try to put myself in their shoes and realize that they're just as valuable as I am. I try to realize that there are two sides to every argument, and that both are valid. I try to resist the impulse to hurt back, and sort of just disengage from the argument, and to let my heart soften, and consider their feelings. I don't do this perfectly all the time, but with practice and time it's gotten easier.

[Atypical_Disaster]

^^^ I have serious problems with impulse control too, it's that urge to "hurt back" as it were and gah, I'm so ****ing reactive that it's insane. That's been an ongoing problem for me. It makes me want to rip my hair out in sheer frustration sometimes because my god it's beyond horrible to KNOW you're being irrational but to be completely incapable of stopping it in the moment.

Not sure what's worse, being oblivious to the things you do or having awareness and not being able to stop yourself anyways. I'll have to keep practicing at it like you said.

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

^^^ I have serious problems with impulse control too, it's that urge to "hurt back" as it were and gah, I'm so ****ing reactive that it's insane. That's been an ongoing problem for me. It makes me want to rip my hair out in sheer frustration sometimes because my god it's beyond horrible to KNOW you're being irrational but to be completely incapable of stopping it in the moment.

Not sure what's worse, being oblivious to the things you do or having awareness and not being able to stop yourself anyways. I'll have to keep practicing at it like you said.

I hate being aware and unable to stop as well. I always feel terrible after I do it, the guilt sucks. I'm sorry you struggle with it too For me putting my pride and desire to win and punish down is hard. Like when someone offends or hurts me, I have to fight my tendency to get manipulative and want them to feel bad for hurting me. I hate that about myself, and I guess hating yourself is bad but I hate it enough to motivate me in those moments where emotions and destructive impulses are surging through me to just put on the brakes. I still can be a **** sometimes, and I can't stand it, but I'm getting better with practice.

[Fractured Infant]

Lol! Knowing I am being irrational and being completely incapable to stop in the moment. What a great description! It's mind bending because after the heat of the moment it's so obvious but something just wells up inside you and takes over, I can feel it happening but am powerless to stop myself. A long time ago I read about multiple personalities because it kind of felt that way, and NPD has some similarities. One thing I read on empathy which I lack, is to look at the person you are talking to and try to understand their specific emotion before responding. I realized when I get in those situations I either don't look at the person or I don't see them, as all I feel coming at me is hate and I give back twice as much as I perceive I'm being given. I know slowing down and looking at the person will help it's just hard to do in the moment.

[NothingPeopleDo]

At times the numbness takes over and does not allow me to think of the way I should be. It's like programmed to be just what it is. I understand what is being said but like I have said before words are easy. Bottom line is it sucks. At times I can see it so clearly and other times I am completely blind to it.