[DocJohn]

Welcome to a safe place to discuss narcissistic personality disorder and related issues:

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx36.htm

Enjoy,
DocJohn

[TooMuchPain]

what would be the first clue that someone might have this disorder? Is it their obvious charm or their less obvious desire to manipulate and control you... (or something else entirely?) How can I recognize people who have this disorder before I get taken again as I have been before?

[GrayNess]

Manipulating and controlling is not with all narcissists. Usually, they'll have a very high self-esteem, present themselves as being better than you, and not recognizing others' emotions.

But, there are different types and so, if you know someone, could you describe them and that way it could be easier.

What you described before is more of antisocial personality disorder (APD) but could also be with certain types of narcissists.

Generally, if their game is manipulation, the best way to avoid is to either have experienced it many times or to know how to manipulate others. If you don't have experience with either, then generally it will be a too-good-to-be-true event, although this isn't always manipulation, itcould be a genuinely nice person. If their game is manipulation, do not try and play it back. They're far better than you'd be and unless they're really bad, it will get messy.

[CJR520]

My daughter is narcissistic. She is 42 years old, and has been trying to run the lives of everyone in the family. She can't just be a family member, she wants to run the show. She shows all of the traits,and is very difficult to be around; has had arguements with everyone in the family, and always thinks she knows more, can do more, etc. If she gets too angry, she won't let family see her children. She did this with her oldest, now is doing the same with her 8 year old. I am getting hardened to it, and although I love the grandson, it is not worth what we go through with her. She has turned her own husband in to children's services because she was angry at him, turned her brother and his wife in to the same agency twice, kept her children from family because she wasn't allowed to run things, told my husband(her stepdad) to leave me when he was going through mid-life crisis and had an emotional affair with a woman at his work. She has been going to college to do social work with the elderly, and I am scared stiff she will steal from people. She has stolen from me, money from an employer, and from other older folks. It is a real mess. Now, my parents are having some problems with old age, and she wants to mess with them. My brother and sister and I are going to go to the law to keep her away if we have to. She hasn't seen them for 1 1/2 years, and she sees prey.

[VoNPD]

Originally Posted by GrayNess

generally it will be a too-good-to-be-true event,

You hit the nail right on the head, Gray. The N seems to instinctively 'smell' the needs of others and use that to gain access to ones inner desires. Then they are able to effectively manipulate.

Something I have found useful was in another thread here... a discussion between 2 N's. They mentioned how thrilling it was to see the look of disappointment or heartbreak on the Victims face. No wonder the N's in my life have smiled at me when they caused me pain.

As always, I read and re-read Sam Valkin's FAQ's to remind myself to PAY ATTENTION to the subtile clues an N gives.

VoN
(Victim of Narcissists)

[CJR520]

My great uncle who was living with my parents and was ninety years old at the time when my daughter was six years old. He was very sharp mentally, and told us that he loved to watch Daughter. She knew just exactly how to get her own way and make others miserable with her lying and manipulating. I was very young, and what he said made me angry at him. But, he was right! We had trouble with her all through school. The girl would lie about a pencil!!! I have to separate myself from her to have peace, now. Her meddling just goes on and on, if we allow it. When we don't , she won't have anything to do with us. I could write a book about all the things she has done to us and all the lies she has told. When I think back, and go through it all, it is mind boggling.

[VoNPD]

My Therapist told me it's OK to "ban" toxic personalities from my life - even if they're close family members.

[Depressive]

Sam Vankin is a n himself, or so he says. He is quite obviously looking for publicity - first clue. Perhaps his writing serves his own delusions of grandeur, which would account for the rather OTT descriptions? Rather critically investigate the source of the information. A much better, less slanted and more clinically objective, less demonising place to start understanding NPD is the research of James F. Masterson, as opposed to the furious, stigmatising rants of Vankin. .

[AdultDaughterOfNarc]

Hi, was wondering if you know where I can find the discussion between the 2 Ns?
I’d really appreciate it!

Something I have found useful was in another thread here... a discussion between 2 N's.

[Depressive]

Originally Posted by GrayNess

Manipulating and controlling is not with all narcissists. Usually, they'll have a very high self-esteem, present themselves as being better than you, and not recognizing others' emotions.

But, there are different types and so, if you know someone, could you describe them and that way it could be easier.

What you described before is more of antisocial personality disorder (APD) but could also be with certain types of narcissists.

Generally, if their game is manipulation, the best way to avoid is to either have experienced it many times or to know how to manipulate others. If you don't have experience with either, then generally it will be a too-good-to-be-true event, although this isn't always manipulation, itcould be a genuinely nice person. If their game is manipulation, do not try and play it back. They're far better than you'd be and unless they're really bad, it will get messy.

I have read a lot of uninformed vitriol on NPD on blogs and the like. Seems there is quite some stigma attached to this condition. Below is an academically-oriented outline of the features of NPD in its various forms. Although it is no excuse for destructive and self-destructive behaviours of the NPD, I can't help but feel something for people who seem so conflicted, tortured, unhappy people. Their behaviours are often reprehensible, but what a life! Unlike antisocial PD, NPDs can't really understand what they're doing because they labour under their delusions. Sounds tough for everyone involved, including the narcissist. It's also sad that these people are psychically damaged at such a young age. Which is not to excuse the behaviour.

[Apoplectic INFP]

Originally Posted by TooMuchPain

what would be the first clue that someone might have this disorder? Is it their obvious charm or their less obvious desire to manipulate and control you... (or something else entirely?) How can I recognize people who have this disorder before I get taken again as I have been before?

Do you always end up with a narcissist? That being the case, perhaps you may have codependency issues which you need to see a specialist for. Maybe.

At any rate, narcissists seem to have one thing in common regardless of race, gender, or creed; They dont respect people's boundaries. Do not allow anyone to rush intimacy with you, no matter how charming they may be.

[babyfairyfifi]

Does anyone else know a Narcissist who clearly lacks all empathy but hotly disputes this , and claims to have masses of empathy?

My mother has NPD and has alienated everyone around her. At one point, last summer, she had successfully cut out everyone except her dog and her hired help .

She has damaged my father ( who has never had a relationship with another woman since divorcing 35 years ago) she has just buried her second husband ( who committed suicide after a very dramatic row with her) she stopped talking to her own mother 10 years before she died and told me to stop being silly when I was upset when she died, citing her reasons : Dead is Dead. She disowned her sister and two brothers, myself and her grandchildren. Only my 30 year old half sister remains as her sole source of Narcissistic supply ( in exchange for financial support).
I have had to consciously protect myself from wanting a relationship with my mother as I know it only leads to pain and drama. Unfortunately that means sacrificing my relationship with my sister too.

I'm sad to think she will die a very lonely and sad lady.

[Rohag]

Originally Posted by Babyfairyfifi

I have had to consciously protect myself from wanting a relationship with my mother as I know it only leads to pain and drama.

I, unfortunately, can relate to this. A time came when it became necessary to act in defence of my family, myself, and oddly enough, in what may have been the best interests of my mother.

[CJR520]

As time goes by, I am getting used to my daughter not being around, and not seeing our grandson, who will be nine soon. Her first child was a calm little boy who would call us and cry and cry, and want to talk to Papaw when his Mom got crazy and controlling. Her second, the eight year old, has been crazy since birth, crying and running and out of control. The stepsons she has have been nothing but trouble because she was really angry and horrible with them. One of them has been in prison twice. The first child is now living and has a child with a woman older than him who had two children already. We have tried to help him out at the start, but to no use. They live in a horrible and dirty, dirty place, and just don't care. The kids jump on the furniture and it is all broken down to the place where you can't even sit on it without springs poking you. The kids tore down the curtains and they just hang lopsided. The last time we were there, there were two lab pups running around peeing and pooping on the floor, and the baby was walking through it, dropping food on the floor, and picking it up eating it. The place is too small and they just don't care. The young woman stays home with the kids, who all three have different fathers, and does nothing . I told hubby that I can not take looking at it any more, and just can't go visit. This is a result of a mother who is narcissistic and controlling. My son in law is so scared of my daughter, that he just is passive and has let her abuse his sons, and hers. I just stay away.

[Rohag]

Even getting used to the separation, that's a heartbreaking situation, CJR520. When did you realize your daughter suffered from NPD?

[CJR520]

I realized what is really going on when my daughter started college. I was really in favor of her schooling and urged her on. What a mistake! She is worse than ever, and bragging and bragging about herself like there is no one else in the world as important as her. The lies continue, but are getting bigger because of her education. Social Work puts her in the perfect place to use people, get things for free, just like she did me and many others. I fear for what will happen to others, but I have no control over what goes on. It is very embarrassing to hear about her from others and to know that they believe every word she says. I do miss the good part of her, but I always end up paying for things for her and her kids, and being used. I am done with that, she knows it, and doesn't want contact. She will have to work full time for the first time in all these years, and pay off her college, and it is a big shock to her, I am sure. She is telling others that she doesn't know how she is going to pay off these loans. "Get a job".

[AzureRain]

Originally Posted by CJR520

As time goes by, I am getting used to my daughter not being around, and not seeing our grandson, who will be nine soon. Her first child was a calm little boy who would call us and cry and cry, and want to talk to Papaw when his Mom got crazy and controlling. Her second, the eight year old, has been crazy since birth, crying and running and out of control. The stepsons she has have been nothing but trouble because she was really angry and horrible with them. One of them has been in prison twice. The first child is now living and has a child with a woman older than him who had two children already. We have tried to help him out at the start, but to no use. They live in a horrible and dirty, dirty place, and just don't care. The kids jump on the furniture and it is all broken down to the place where you can't even sit on it without springs poking you. The kids tore down the curtains and they just hang lopsided. The last time we were there, there were two lab pups running around peeing and pooping on the floor, and the baby was walking through it, dropping food on the floor, and picking it up eating it. The place is too small and they just don't care. The young woman stays home with the kids, who all three have different fathers, and does nothing . I told hubby that I can not take looking at it any more, and just can't go visit. This is a result of a mother who is narcissistic and controlling. My son in law is so scared of my daughter, that he just is passive and has let her abuse his sons, and hers. I just stay away.

No children's protective service in your state? I called CSD on my daughter after my entire dysfunctional family and I tried to help her gets her crap straight. Now I'm trying to persuade her to let him be adopted by the family friends my grandson is placed with and ensure stability for him. My son (a narcissist in therapy) called CSD too after witnessing some horrific abuse. I love my daughter but I'll be damned if I let her do to her son what her biological F did to her! You need to turn those idiots in, not abandon their children to endure such appalling neglect!

[griffy2]

Hi babyfairyfifi,
Lack of Empathy, is a protection tactic of the inner child. If I don't care, then my inner child will not be hurt. That is one area in my life that I was never aware of until recently. I could say "Blustery" statements to my wife and kids and all I have been doing is instilling fear of me in them and driving them away. I have been recently diagnosed as having NPD. At first "who me?" However, I needed to look at the history of my behavior. Not so nice. Picture if you will the scene in the Wizard of Oz. He was "Blustery" and expounded fear to all who approached him. It took a dog to pull back the curtain, exposing a really scared man that was creating this big bad persona! I have found in my journey that if I can put a handle on the cup, I can over come that obstacle and learn from past and current errors in my life.
Empathy is love, caring, and understanding of the other persons feelings.
Lack of Empathy is like dealing with a Great White Shark. I very much want to change that persona of me.
Griffy2

Originally Posted by babyfairyfifi

Does anyone else know a Narcissist who clearly lacks all empathy but hotly disputes this , and claims to have masses of empathy?

My mother has NPD and has alienated everyone around her. At one point, last summer, she had successfully cut out everyone except her dog and her hired help .

She has damaged my father ( who has never had a relationship with another woman since divorcing 35 years ago) she has just buried her second husband ( who committed suicide after a very dramatic row with her) she stopped talking to her own mother 10 years before she died and told me to stop being silly when I was upset when she died, citing her reasons : Dead is Dead. She disowned her sister and two brothers, myself and her grandchildren. Only my 30 year old half sister remains as her sole source of Narcissistic supply ( in exchange for financial support).
I have had to consciously protect myself from wanting a relationship with my mother as I know it only leads to pain and drama. Unfortunately that means sacrificing my relationship with my sister too.

I'm sad to think she will die a very lonely and sad lady.

[Barb K]

Hi - I am new here and not really sure how this works. I am just looking to share my situation and possibly gather some advice.
I am currently going through a divorce with someone a family counselor has described as having a narcissitic personality disorder. When I researched information on the disorder, it was an unbelievably accurate description of his personality. I have been married for nearly 20 years, unwisely staying together because I have 2 children. He has worked very hard at projecting himself as absolutely wonderful to the entire community. He volunteers for everything and loves the adoration he receives. He makes sure he is visable at all our children's events. Noone would ever think for a moment that he could possibly treat us so badly at home.
He would always "set me up" to look bad. For example, I am the head of an organization in our town and people would give him material or information to pass on to me, but he simply wouldn't. I would look foolish for not responding, etc. as he would always claim he gave me the information. There are many more examples.
He becomes particularly disturbed when I lose weight and does everything in his power to make people believe I am having an affair. A few years ago, he bugged my house, car and phone, and hired people to follow and film me. The scary part was, I was never happier in my entire marriage, because he was taking me out to dinner, shopping with me, enjoying sex for the first time in many years, etc. I had no clue what he was doing behind my back. Everything came to light when he contacted a coworker's wife and said I was having an affair with her husband. He did that even after his detectives said that I most definately was not. We started into counseling, and then I found an application for a handgun permit. The counselor at that time said he either needed to go away for intense treatment or she was going to the authorities because she was concerned for my safety. He went away to the Caron Foundation for treatment. I took the leap of faith and stayed with him because he said he truly knew he was abusive, much like his dad. The "honeymoon" did not last long. Flash forward to now. Once again, I decided to lose weight and get healthier. He was definately planting seeds all over the place that I was having an affair. He then proceeded to rub my underwear and bras with poison sumac. The pain and discomfort were unbelievable. He was telling my Mom that I must be cheating as it is so peculiar that I only have poison at my private areas. My therapist insisted that I get a restraining order and contacted a lawyer on my behalf. That was on October 2nd. A scary thing is that, once again, guns come in to play. He had relocated his hunting guns - about seven - to someone else's house - because he said it was crazy at our house. Wow, once again, he was angry and I was unaware what was going on in his head. Thankfully, he had to turn the guns over as a result of a search warrant. He still has not seen the children because, as the counselor's have put it, he is not taking responsibility for what he has done. He is so angry and doing things that cost so much money through the attornies. My kids and I feel like we are on an island by ourselves as noone really understands how he is. They only see Mr. Wonderful and hear his sob story of how he is just a victim and I am keeping the children from him. He is living with his brother and has now reconnected with his family that he did not bother with for years (of course, blaming me for that), which is concerning as they all grew up in the same dysfunctional household.
There is so much more, but I've obviously gone on too long now. Some of my questions revolve around the guns. Should I be frightened with the connection? It just seems that noone except the kids and I see the fear we have. Will he ever become civil enough to get through this divorce? After all, he should. He will be taking half my pension and 401K per the lawyer, and paying little child support, as he could take cash in his business and reported little earnings. I never really knew what kind of money he was making and he was very angry when I questioned anything.
Sorry, just looking for some advice....... My head is spinning.

[Rohag]

Hello & Welcome, Barb K!

In view of the poison sumac episode, I believe you must regard the guns as a real threat. (I hate to use the word "must," but here I believe it warranted.)

As a narcissist, your husband is probably feeding off your fear and humiliation and may want to prolong that situation. Nevertheless, he's shown a willingness to hurt you physically; if he thinks he's squeezed all the "narcissistic supply" out of you he can, he may not hesitate to dispose of you.

Please get the authorities involved and obtain expert legal counsel. "Better safe than sorry."