[DocJohn]

Welcome to a safe place to discuss narcissistic personality disorder and related issues:

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx36.htm

Enjoy,
DocJohn

[TooMuchPain]

what would be the first clue that someone might have this disorder? Is it their obvious charm or their less obvious desire to manipulate and control you... (or something else entirely?) How can I recognize people who have this disorder before I get taken again as I have been before?

[GrayNess]

Manipulating and controlling is not with all narcissists. Usually, they'll have a very high self-esteem, present themselves as being better than you, and not recognizing others' emotions.

But, there are different types and so, if you know someone, could you describe them and that way it could be easier.

What you described before is more of antisocial personality disorder (APD) but could also be with certain types of narcissists.

Generally, if their game is manipulation, the best way to avoid is to either have experienced it many times or to know how to manipulate others. If you don't have experience with either, then generally it will be a too-good-to-be-true event, although this isn't always manipulation, itcould be a genuinely nice person. If their game is manipulation, do not try and play it back. They're far better than you'd be and unless they're really bad, it will get messy.

[CJR520]

My daughter is narcissistic. She is 42 years old, and has been trying to run the lives of everyone in the family. She can't just be a family member, she wants to run the show. She shows all of the traits,and is very difficult to be around; has had arguements with everyone in the family, and always thinks she knows more, can do more, etc. If she gets too angry, she won't let family see her children. She did this with her oldest, now is doing the same with her 8 year old. I am getting hardened to it, and although I love the grandson, it is not worth what we go through with her. She has turned her own husband in to children's services because she was angry at him, turned her brother and his wife in to the same agency twice, kept her children from family because she wasn't allowed to run things, told my husband(her stepdad) to leave me when he was going through mid-life crisis and had an emotional affair with a woman at his work. She has been going to college to do social work with the elderly, and I am scared stiff she will steal from people. She has stolen from me, money from an employer, and from other older folks. It is a real mess. Now, my parents are having some problems with old age, and she wants to mess with them. My brother and sister and I are going to go to the law to keep her away if we have to. She hasn't seen them for 1 1/2 years, and she sees prey.

[VoNPD]

Originally Posted by GrayNess

generally it will be a too-good-to-be-true event,

You hit the nail right on the head, Gray. The N seems to instinctively 'smell' the needs of others and use that to gain access to ones inner desires. Then they are able to effectively manipulate.

Something I have found useful was in another thread here... a discussion between 2 N's. They mentioned how thrilling it was to see the look of disappointment or heartbreak on the Victims face. No wonder the N's in my life have smiled at me when they caused me pain.

As always, I read and re-read Sam Valkin's FAQ's to remind myself to PAY ATTENTION to the subtile clues an N gives.

VoN
(Victim of Narcissists)

[CJR520]

My great uncle who was living with my parents and was ninety years old at the time when my daughter was six years old. He was very sharp mentally, and told us that he loved to watch Daughter. She knew just exactly how to get her own way and make others miserable with her lying and manipulating. I was very young, and what he said made me angry at him. But, he was right! We had trouble with her all through school. The girl would lie about a pencil!!! I have to separate myself from her to have peace, now. Her meddling just goes on and on, if we allow it. When we don't , she won't have anything to do with us. I could write a book about all the things she has done to us and all the lies she has told. When I think back, and go through it all, it is mind boggling.

[VoNPD]

My Therapist told me it's OK to "ban" toxic personalities from my life - even if they're close family members.

[CJR520]

I'm sure the advise you got was right! Life goes along much more smoothly without being tormented. The smile gives her away, too. When she gets someone deeply hurt and stressed, she does the same thing. After all these years, I am figuring it out.

[CJR520]

After talking to my sister in laws last week, I find out that daughter tried to take advantage of an elderly aunt on my husbands side about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago before the aunt passed away. She had not seen the aunt for years and wanted to go in to her assisted living home and help her go through her things. Now, I know why my daughter did not show up at the aunt's funeral. My sister in laws took care of the problem quietly because they did not want to hurt my feelings. This gal is going to be a big problem out "helping" the elderly. I know that even though she is my daughter, I am not to blame for her actions, but it still hurts.

[skeeweeaka]

N's seek out people that they can manipulate, all to late, I see that now! Unfortunatley, my codepedency helped a lot because my exhusband is an N! He has hurt many, many people who loved and cared for him in his life but he has no remorse, he says that he somehow made it up to them all...except me of course!

N's will lie and lie and lie...they will steal from you and tell you to your face that it was YOUR FAULT! N's are disturbed people and can really make you feel insane and that you are the problem.

In this case, I don't think he even knows that he is an N, but he does know that he is very dysfunctional. He never completes anything! He seems to not have a grasp of who he "really" is and what he does to people. He always has to feel better than other people and dresses the part, he only deals with professional people. He has nothing to show for 48 years of his life...no home...no car...no friends...except for our dd and he has manipulated her to believe that I am the evil one...heavy sigh!

TJ

[CJR520]

It has to be worse for you having it be your husband who is the N. Our daughter is the same way. The one thing she has done is she has gone through her schooling. At 42, she has never held down a job, and I really fear she is going to use this education to take advantage of the elderly more than she has before. I hope that doesn't happen, she could end up in jail. I hope that your husband at least gets some counseling; maybe that would help you. I feel bad for you. You must be tough to stick with him so long.

[skeeweeaka]

Originally Posted by CJR520

It has to be worse for you having it be your husband who is the N. Our daughter is the same way. The one thing she has done is she has gone through her schooling. At 42, she has never held down a job, and I really fear she is going to use this education to take advantage of the elderly more than she has before. I hope that doesn't happen, she could end up in jail. I hope that your husband at least gets some counseling; maybe that would help you. I feel bad for you. You must be tough to stick with him so long.

He's 3 classes shy of his BA and is trying to finish which is why I thought he was more reliable now, but unfortunately he is the same. I think over the years I have secretly hoped that he would get it together but his personality can be challenging for those who live with him, for those who don't they just think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Counseling, we've tried many, many times and either he says I am on the problem or rationalizes every single thing that has occurred over the twenty years that we have known each other. Unfortunately, our dd does not understand the manipulation and loves him to death! I think, however, that she is beginning to recognize that something is amiss. If I weren't ill and needed his help with her, their would have been no way on earth that I would be living with him again. I pray every day that my health continues to get better so that I will not need his help with her!

Best Wishes,

TJ

[HelloImStevie]

Originally Posted by skeeweeaka

N's seek out people that they can manipulate, all to late, I see that now! Unfortunatley, my codepedency helped a lot because my exhusband is an N! He has hurt many, many people who loved and cared for him in his life but he has no remorse, he says that he somehow made it up to them all...except me of course!

N's will lie and lie and lie...they will steal from you and tell you to your face that it was YOUR FAULT! N's are disturbed people and can really make you feel insane and that you are the problem.

In this case, I don't think he even knows that he is an N, but he does know that he is very dysfunctional. He never completes anything! He seems to not have a grasp of who he "really" is and what he does to people. He always has to feel better than other people and dresses the part, he only deals with professional people. He has nothing to show for 48 years of his life...no home...no car...no friends...except for our dd and he has manipulated her to believe that I am the evil one...heavy sigh!

TJ

OMG, this sounds like my sister. She IS reasonably successful-she is a high school English teacher-but she is manipulative, talks down to people, preys on weaknesses, etc. She is also on her 3rd marriage (at 37)

It is exhausting to deal with her. Truly freaking exhausting.

[skeeweeaka]

Originally Posted by HelloImStevie

OMG, this sounds like my sister. She IS reasonably successful-she is a high school English teacher-but she is manipulative, talks down to people, preys on weaknesses, etc. She is also on her 3rd marriage (at 37)

It is exhausting to deal with her. Truly freaking exhausting.

You said it "TRULY FREAKING EXHAUSTING EVERY SINGLE DAY!" As a result of all of his dysfunction, he has lost all of his good friends but one who still tries to support him. The other ones gave up and refuse to deal with him anymore, including one that he grew up with that was like his ONLY brother! It's sad but he's like a kid that you have to watch constantly!

Best Wishes,

TJ

[HelloImStevie]

Originally Posted by skeeweeaka

You said it "TRULY FREAKING EXHAUSTING EVERY SINGLE DAY!" As a result of all of his dysfunction, he has lost all of his good friends but one who still tries to support him. The other ones gave up and refuse to deal with him anymore, including one that he grew up with that was like his ONLY brother! It's sad but he's like a kid that you have to watch constantly!

Best Wishes,

TJ

She currently hates me because I live with our parents. (Just left an abusive husband, had no money and nowhere to go, so here I am.) She told my parents that they can't see her kids because I live here and she hates me.

Why does she hate me? Because in the course of the hurried move, she volunteered to take care of my Pomeranian, Moxie, until I could get my own place. A few weeks later, she gave away or sold Moxie and will not give me any information about where she is. She finds it completely unreasonable that I am angry about it.

So...she is punishing her kids and my parents.

I get tired trying to deal with her. My parents have opted to not react at all, which is probably the smartest move.

[CJR520]

That is pretty much what I have done with my daughter. Just cut it off!! There are always people who will not or cannot understand you, but sometimes we have to take care of ourselves. Others just see that sweet person who they don't know is getting ready to take advantage of them and use them for all they are worth! My daughter had only one friend, a Mennonite lady, who she has used to death. Now, this lady is catching on, and my daughter will find someone else to use, then disgard.

[CJR520]

I saw a picture of my daughter with others in college. Even in the picture, the rest of the students are turned just enough away from her, and in a different direction that you can just tell by body language, that they don't want to be close to her. I am farther away from her, but seeing things that have gone on for years, and I did not realize, as a Mom, what was going on. It is sad!

[pinwheel27]

Hi, I am new here. I looking for a place to find out if my niece would be classified having Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I have read your post
and see basically the same traits with her. She is in her mid twenties,
can not hold a job (it is always someone else's problem why she does
not want to work there). She always looks beautiful and watches
what she eats and her weigh. If you get into an arguement, it is usually
a nasty one. She is controlling and she really knows how to use people.
I am really afraid of her safety. If this is not what she has as a disorder,
can you sugguest some other kind of disorder that I can look up. Thanks

[CJR520]

Originally Posted by pinwheel27

Hi, I am new here. I looking for a place to find out if my niece would be classified having Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I have read your post
and see basically the same traits with her. She is in her mid twenties,
can not hold a job (it is always someone else's problem why she does
not want to work there). She always looks beautiful and watches
what she eats and her weigh. If you get into an arguement, it is usually
a nasty one. She is controlling and she really knows how to use people.
I am really afraid of her safety. If this is not what she has as a disorder,
can you sugguest some other kind of disorder that I can look up. Thanks

That's my daughter, but it could be other things also. We have been going through this since she was a young child, and she is 42 now. I feel for you, and her family. My daughter has used everyone in the family, and has no where else to go now.

[pinwheel27]

Thank you for replying CJR and I feel for you. I guess I am the lucky one, because I brought my kids up by respecting others. If is very hard for me to watch my neice bringing up a child. He daughter is still young. But there are a few times I hear a comment that she makes and I just wonder if she will be like her mom.

[pinwheel27]

Originally Posted by CJR520

That's my daughter, but it could be other things also. We have been going through this since she was a young child, and she is 42 now. I feel for you, and her family. My daughter has used everyone in the family, and has no where else to go now.

You mention it could be other things also...like what, if I may ask?

[Mouse_]

I'm hesitant to get involved when I read posts wanting to label someone with narcissistic disorder. Especially reading such comments as having to deal with it since they were a child, makes me think, can a child be born narcissistic? I mean apart from the normal state of narcissism we are born into? I wonder at times if perhaps the pattern is continuing into the child's adulthood? The family only seeing the child as "using" the rest of the family when infarct a child will of course need to "use" family as thats what children do until they mature and learn that others are people too, but to expect that from a child, well is pretty near-sighted and narcissistic in itself? Perhaps if there was real genuine family concern, one perhaps would want to look at ways to help the family member rather than just label them? Or are they at a stage where they themselves don't know what to do, are unable to think through any more? Or where they always at a stage where they were tired of the family members wants and needs and didn't want to even begin to think through issues with the family member as they arose? I get the impression a lot of people want to be thrown the narcissistic label like a life belt and then they can claim "victim status" and fill secure in their own minds they were the ones being done too and not the ones that did too also? Perhaps we all in this together and more compassion and understanding may change the pattern that I see repeated often. Of course this are only my own personal feelings on the matter, some who have a genuine interest in wanting to understand another may agree, or others that have no real altruistic desire will just dismiss all of what I say, because it suits them for it to be like that.

[CJR520]

In our case, it was figured out at her age of 42 years old. Our son was nothing like this and was a victim. I understand what you are saying and what it may look like, but this is not the case. There were professionals involved many years back. By other problems, I meant maybe medical that could cause bad behaviour. Hormones, diabetic, many others.

[Mouse_]

Originally Posted by CJR520

years old. Our son was nothing like this and was a victim.

Perhaps theres a clue there? We are each individuals and our behaviour as children can be "scripted"? I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for, and I hope your daughter also recieves the help she needs, but alas some people are so badly disturbed that the help is never accepted, as trust has been badly eroded over the yrs, Fortunately for me, I recieved the help and insight and compassion that was needed.

[pinwheel27]

With my situation, my neice grew up in a different part of the US and just recently I have the opportunity to get to know her. Within a few months I noticed a personality disorder and started to do research to which lead me to this site. I and not familiar with personality disorders nor know who to talk to so I can see if I can get help for my neice. Just seeing what I have seen in the past, I just know I would have to have all the facts, and find the right words to tell her that I would like to help her without getting into a fight.