[eskielover]

Librarian working at the front desk of the library is made aware of a sexually illicit book with graphic photos of sex in the library & finds it is on hold for an 11 year old.

The existing system doesn't require parental authorization for books like this to be checked out to children (even though it requires parental authorization for movies). Is the librarian correct in taking the book off the hold to protect the child?

(I will fill you in on the details of what happened shortly...would appreciate opinions & thoughts at the moment)

Thanks for any replys,
Debbie

[Luce]

In this instance, I don't think the librarian has the right to disallow the lending of the book. The librarian probably doesn't have the right to contact the parents to seek permission either. If there is no policy about it, then I think the librarian's most appropriate action in this case would be to bring it to the attention of management that creating a policy might be wise.

This situation highlights a loophole in the library's lending system that needs to be addressed in order to protect the rights and actions of all concerned. As much as I hate policies and procedures and think they are so overdone in almost every aspect of society, I have to say they do protect us. A clear policy about the lending of sexually explicit printed material to minors (ie , it can't be done at all, it can be done with parental permission, or it is unrestricted) would allow the librarian to know exactly what procedures to follow in this type of instance.

[starrina]

As a mother I would absolutly agree with the librarian
I would hope that someone had the b*lls to do this
for my child just my opinion.

[sabby]

I do believe, if I was the librarian, I would take a few moments out of my busy day and sit down with the child and talk to him/her about the book. Maybe this kid is doing this on a dare from other kids, or maybe he has an older sibling who asked him/her to get it for them, maybe this kid is very curious and needs some guidance. What's wrong with asking the question, "Why are you interested in this book?".

[VickiesPath]

I think I smell a "Gotcha" coming.

[nowheretorun]

Originally Posted by Luce

In this instance, I don't think the librarian has the right to disallow the lending of the book. The librarian probably doesn't have the right to contact the parents to seek permission either. If there is no policy about it, then I think the librarian's most appropriate action in this case would be to bring it to the attention of management that creating a policy might be wise.

This situation highlights a loophole in the library's lending system that needs to be addressed in order to protect the rights and actions of all concerned. As much as I hate policies and procedures and think they are so overdone in almost every aspect of society, I have to say they do protect us. A clear policy about the lending of sexually explicit printed material to minors (ie , it can't be done at all, it can be done with parental permission, or it is unrestricted) would allow the librarian to know exactly what procedures to follow in this type of instance.

in many ways we are each our brothers keepers... ((eskie))))) (((luce)))))

[I_WMD]

Originally Posted by eskielover

Librarian working at the front desk of the library is made aware of a sexually illicit book with graphic photos of sex in the library & finds it is on hold for an 11 year old.

The existing system doesn't require parental authorization for books like this to be checked out to children (even though it requires parental authorization for movies). Is the librarian correct in taking the book off the hold to protect the child?

(I will fill you in on the details of what happened shortly...would appreciate opinions & thoughts at the moment)

Thanks for any replys,
Debbie

IMO ,, State law supercedes policies of any business or non-profit .
And if state law decrees diseminating pornography to individuals under 18 ,, is against the law ,, than I would chose to abide by state law >> and not some unwritten policy .

WMD.

[nowheretorun]

thinking for oneself is healthy.... we are an evolving country... our nations laws are built on morals and individuals who use their minds and hearts in caring for us all

if the librarian feels she is condoning unethical acts, she needs to make a personal decision and can begin a petition if she cares to.. or write a letter to someone who might listen... even if she is wading against the tide she is sticking up for her own principles and making meaning of her life... thats how democracy works

(((eskielover))))) I have to say imo I think the librarian is doing the correct thing by keeping this book away from the child. Maybe as adults we all need to look more at what is out there for kids to see. Of course they are going to know as its on TV. IN vid games. Its all over the net.
Its what your values are I guess. ((Not meaning you))))
Kids now are losing them fast. My son I can say with all honesty is lossing them fast.
Sorry to bring up a kid story of my own but it relates. Just to show everyone.
His school he went to when he was around 11 or 12 he brought home a very grafic disc. His friends had taught him how to download it from the comps at school. The school had no protect. They told me they did not want to inhibit thier growth.
Well that little disc crashed my comp and a few of thiers. Yes what you are thinking was on it. I had never seen anything like it.
The rules on that are now changed at that school.
Another expample. These kids at this school can not read and write well. So one teacher let them write as grafic and as gorrie of storys they wanted too.
I only just learned of this. If those story were written here or any where they would cause great concern. As it did to me.
What are we teaching our kids this ? Kids are kids they will look. But to say ok at a library or school ....I think imo is wrong....
They are blasted with it everywhere.........It makes me sad ....most kids can handle it. But there ones who can not.
Thats why at the movies you have to be 18............
sorry if i voiced my thoughts to much. .......I have 2 kids...One exposed to too much. Thats the one having issues.

[DocJohn]

Just to point out the somewhat obvious, but many encyclopedias and certainly lots of general health books have discussions and pictures of the human body, some including discussions of sex and sexual reproduction.

Without further information about the specific book in question, it would be hard to give much insight into this situation.

DocJohn

[kris9999]

If this is a book on learning about the human body and learning about STDs and things, than no I do not believe it to be wrong. They are teaching children in school at a much younger age, these things. Maybe the child has to do something for school, or maybe their parents aren't being open with them about sex and the body. These things need to be discussed with children, however I do believe it is the parents responsibility.

If this is a book in a more pornographic nature, than no it should not be allowed. This is just my personal opinion!

[VickiesPath]

Originally Posted by DocJohn

Just to point out the somewhat obvious, but many encyclopedias and certainly lots of general health books have discussions and pictures of the human body, some including discussions of sex and sexual reproduction.

Without further information about the specific book in question, it would be hard to give much insight into this situation.

DocJohn

This is along the lines of the "gotcha".

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by eskielover

a sexually illicit book with graphic photos of sex

Sexually illicit? That is quite different from sexually explicit, which might be along the lines Doc John suggested.

The existing system doesn't require parental authorization for books like this to be checked out to children

My guess is the library has policy already to deal with this. Even if the library doesn't require parental authorization, perhaps parental notification is allowed. In our library system, parents have access to information about what items the child is borrowing (they can look it up online but it isn't "pushed" at them) and are allowed to pick up "holds" for the child at the library. If a book is overdue, the parent is notified, and the title of the book is included in the message (title is always included no matter if the patron is child or adult). When a minor turns 18, the policy changes and the library requires written consent between adults to have access in various ways to each others information or to be allowed to pick up each other's books. In my home, this situation probably wouldn't have happened because we have to drive to our local library and 11 year old could not get there on his own, so I would be there in person when my child was checking out books. It could be that this boy's parents know what their 11 year old is checking out and are OK with it.

Good question, Debbie! I am curious about other library lending policies besides my own local system.

(I think my library does not have pornography in their collection--as a test, I checked the system catalog for Playboy and they do not subscribe. So, in a way, they are controlling access to certain types of material by not having those materials.)

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by eskielover

Librarian working at the front desk of the library is made aware of a sexually illicit book with graphic photos of sex in the library & finds it is on hold for an 11 year old.

The existing system doesn't require parental authorization for books like this to be checked out to children (even though it requires parental authorization for movies). Is the librarian correct in taking the book off the hold to protect the child?

(I will fill you in on the details of what happened shortly...would appreciate opinions & thoughts at the moment)

Thanks for any replys,
Debbie

No here the librarian is not allowed to take books of hold if they are sexually explicit material for children. there are many books now out there for children and preteens about sex like where did I come from has explicit pictures but its listed for children aged 3-10. what one person finds to be unacceptable reading for one child another parent doesnt find it unacceptable for their child. all librarians are able to do is follow their working rules of placing books on request and expect parents to know what thier kids are reading, watching on tv, on the internet,

[(JD)]

No bright-line rule here. Each library has to set up its own guidelines. Just like they probably have rules regarding ages of children who can access the internet by themselves, and what sites they can't view etc.

A minor does not have the right to read any book he or she wishes. Unless the library has a written rule regarding age and books, then the librarian has no choice but to allow the child to check out the book. To restrict access to a public book is bordering on First Amendment Rights, imo.

Who's to know if the book is JUST for the child?
If it's that trashy of a book (rather than an educational one) why have the general public allowed their tax dollars to be spent buying it?

Unless the librarian is prevented from contacting the parent, she then can do so, expressing her concern. I doubt it will be appreciated though. Obviously the librarian has not seen what is being taught at the local schools these days.

[Yoda]

When I was young I saw a dog having sex with my beagle. I didn't know what was happening and asked my mother what they were doing. She was clearly upset and said we have talked about this before, I will tell you tonight. It was clear to me that asking was wrong. We never ever had a "sex talk" that I recall. She gave me a book with diagrams of men and women and the development of a fetus. Not so very informative about what I wanted to know. I found The Joy of Sex in my local library and that was how I learned about sex. I am glad the librarian didn't call my mother. My mother would have had a seizure.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by eskielover

Librarian working at the front desk of the library is made aware of a sexually illicit book with graphic photos of sex in the library & finds it is on hold for an 11 year old.

I'm guessing eskielover meant sexually explicit (possibly too graphic for a 11-year-old), not literally illicit (not even allowable in the library because clearly obscene by prevailing community standards).

I was wondering if what's considered suitable or unsuitable for minors in that community is left up to the librarians' judgment; if it's between the librarians and the parents; if there are local guidelines already in place that the librarian was either honoring or overstepping; and if state law already dictates what libraries (and booksellers, and schools, and maybe even parents) can and can't let minors see. Not knowing any of this, we may not be in a good position to speculate on what the librarian should have done. For a discussion of some of the legal considerations (freedom of speech/press versus community standards), check Obscenity (Wikipedia).

I happen to think that two important factors in this particular case would've been the "redeeming social importance", if any, of the book in question and how the kid was planning to use it. Ideally, the kid would already have been getting age-appropriate sex education from his/her parents but we all know that doesn't always happen. When it doesn't, it's an open question whether kids are better left ignorant too long or told too much too soon. They're pretty sure to learn stuff from each other anyway, and what they learn by that route may or may not compare well to what they're being protected from learning from library books.

Originally Posted by _sabby_

What's wrong with asking the question, "Why are you interested in this book?"

I think the results would depend a lot on what kind of relationship the librarian already had with the kid and on how much time the librarian had to follow up properly. If there were several other people lined up at the desk and probably listening, the kid could conceivably rush out the door in embarrassment and never come back. Even if they found a few minutes for a serious conversation, the kid could offer some answer that the librarian wasn't sure what to make of or how best to follow up.

I'm more than a little leery of saying that "of course" whole categories of materials should be kept from children "for their own good", because in the past I've seen similar arguments used for keeping other, socially important materials from adults as well.

For more discussion see Sex Education (Wikipedia), where I found this picture:

[lynn P.]

I would imagine the library wouldn't have anything too explicit and one person's opinion of explicit is another persons opinion of medically educational. But I wouldn't want it to be given to a child under 11 for sure. I think most 11 yr olds have probably accessed more elicit info/viewing material on the internet - unless the parent has filters. I think 11 is an appropriate age to learn about sex in the appropriate way. my mother never spoke t ome about sex at all and I wish she had. I have had the talk with my 11 yr old and told her the door is open anytime she wants to talk.

Originally Posted by _sabby_

I do believe, if I was the librarian, I would take a few moments out of my busy day and sit down with the child and talk to him/her about the book. Maybe this kid is doing this on a dare from other kids, or maybe he has an older sibling who asked him/her to get it for them, maybe this kid is very curious and needs some guidance. What's wrong with asking the question, "Why are you interested in this book?".

I agree with this, rather then creating a new policy. The reason why mind you isn't that I condone the child having access to such an explicit book in this case, but that it can also be subjective depending on the people involved. One person's immorality is another person's part of nature that there is no shame in. I could easily see a policy getting out of hand for both ends of this spectrum, whether it is banning books from minors with even the slightest hint of sexuality to practically giving away pornography for the sake of education.

[eskielover]

You all have been so great with your responses....I really appreciate all your opinions. Providing the detail of what happened:

I have a friend who works part time at the library in the neighboring town. The book was pornographic, nothing to do with sex education(can't remember the name of it though....sorry....she was telling me so much information I lost the name with all the other information she was talking about).

As I stated, the full time librarian pointed the book out to my friend & she looked at it, looked at the fact it was on hold for an 11 year old & immediately took it off the hold. Well, she came in the next day & was called into the director's office & several from the board of directors were there & they fired her for taking the book off the hold...for the reason that she had committed censorship. Her own boss wasn't even notified they were doing this....they pulled her in & fired her after her boss went home.

The gotcha (yes, there is a gotcha).....the other librarian that pointed out the book was also fired for being a part of the censorship. She called my friend after she was fired & told her that she thought she had gotten my friend fired. She told my friend that she had gone to the board already about that book & other books like it, not having the same protection against children accessing them as with the movies & the computer usage. She told the directors that books like that weren't appropriate in the library let alone not having safeguards in place so that children can't access books like that. They rejected her comments both times.

That said, there was no where for my friend to appeal since the board would be the place for her to go to for an appeal which she initially thought she would try to do.

The other librarian is thinking that this whole situation with that book on hold on an 11 year old's library card may have been a set up by the board to get her fired, but my friend got involved unknowingly by actually being the one to take off the hold because she felt so strongly that allowing a book like that to go out to an 11 year old was WRONG & felt the need to take that action since there was no protection procedures in place for things like that. She felt she was just maintaining the standards as set for movies & the computer access.

Each town has it's own library governing board of directors that seems to do things as they please with no standards to base their actions on. At first my friend didn't know why she was even fired.....even when they told her, when she got home & looked in her paperwork, she couldn't see where it stated that what she did was wrong let alone something to be fired over without any warning.

She has gone from feeling in shock, feeling angry, to feeling hurt, to feeling attacked. She doesn't need the job as she is retired, but the other lady who was fired need the full time job & benefits. All these emotions are really stirring up in my friend is the fight in her. The fight for righting something that is seriously wrong, the fight for protecting the children of our country let alone our community.

The other librarian that was fired took the book when she left, checked out to her so it wouldn't just disappear. We are thinking this happened for a reason because 2 fighting for a cause are louder than one & can touch more places in their war. Besides, my friend is a fighter for things that need to be right.....thinking of going to th mayer, the TV stations, the radio. the newspapers. She said who knows, I might end up arrested for standing up for what is right....but we are standing there right there next to her all the way.

Now we are talking about many wrongs being done, not just one.

Thank you so much for your replys so far.....will continue to welcome & appreciate all your replys....it is very informatiave to know how people look at these situations in these days where we seem to care more about not offending rights than we care about protecting our children.

Will also keep you posted in what is happening with this situation.....who knows what kind of war this might start....lol....or at least a good battle.

Thanks again for all your input....it is most enlightening to see where many thoughts are & it is beautiful to know it's with our children in most cases.

Thank you,
Debbie



together will be taking this situation to much higher up places. The mayor, the TV stations, the news......gladly, the board of directors met with a lady who is willing to fight for what she knows is right. They aren't even sure if the book was actally put on hold by the 11 year old with the card, or it might have been one of the board that put in on hold on a childs card (maybe one of their family) to catch the one lady because they were wanting to get rid of her & at least put her out of the way.

[VickiesPath]

Tell your friend to order her own copy of the book. If she keeps the library's copy, they'll accuse her of stealing.

[Yoda]

Wow?! Fired for censorship?! Wow! That is extreme. I could understand getting an infraction for that but fired? Although I don't think it was right to take the book off hold I don't think she should have been fired unless there are other problems that we don't know about.

If my child had a book, even a pornographic book on hold, I would want as the parent to decide what is appropriate or inappropriate for my child. I can decide based on my child's age and maturity level what is appropriate. I turned my child loose on the internet at fourteen but I would walk in at intervals and ask what site he was using. He was exposed to porn earlier than I was but that gave me the opportunity to talk about sex, STDs, doing what a person wants to do sexually rather than being coerced and stuff my mom never said to me but I wish she had. When he was sixteen I bought him some condoms to practice with and made it clear I was not encouraging him to become sexually active yet but just in case he did I wanted him ready to do it responsibly.

And a different point - I have an overdue book so can't put books on hold so I put three books on hold last week using my son's card.

[AAAAA]

You bring up an interesting point Yoda. We all tend to use my husband's card because he's the only one that can keep track of his card lol.

I really don't know how I feel about this. I am greatly troubled that a third party took the liberty to declare this book pornographic and therefore not acceptable for a child to access. In my opinion the best course of action would have been for the employee in question to contact the child's parent and notify them that their child has requested a hold for a book of a questionable nature and allow the parent to make the decision. I do not take censorship lightly.

[eskielover]

Vickie,

It was the other lady employee that actually checked out the book to take it so it wouldn't come up missing when they take their case farther along.....the other lady that was fired was the one that told my friend about the book & my friend took it off the hold....but it's the other lady who made sure she checked out the book. I can't believe how the directors of the library would refuse to handle books like that in the same way as the videos & the use of the computers....It's not that they couldn't set up a system that would work.....the directors just seem like they want to be a bounch of jerks.

[Luce]

Wow. Okay.
I think immediate dismissal in this case is a little over the top (in my country it is actually very difficult to fire someone and can only be done by following a lengthy series of warnings etc), but I agree with the basic premise that censorship is an infringement of the rights of others.

I do NOT believe the librarian had a right to impose censorship, and she would have been better to discuss her concerns with management. But still... I think a warning might have been a more appropriate course of action.