[Ygrec23]

I've lived a long time. And since the beginning of memory until now there has been a thick, transparent barrier between myself and other people. I see their mouths moving and hear nothing. A barrier that has always prevented me from understanding the kinds of mutually accepted standards of social behavior that most people live by. No, I doubt I'm anti-social or a psychopath or anything of the kind. This is a defensive wall that makes it impossible for me to comprehend the very normal kinds of social rules that everyone else lives by. Normal people would not even consider for a second doing things that I've done over and over that have caused me to be rejected and excluded (over and over) throughout my life.

What is this? What is it called? Is there a name for it? I haven't even broached this subject with my T. We've talked a lot about dissociation, but not about this. I think that at some time in infancy I decided that any kind of communication with other people was overwhelmingly bad, and shut them out. Yes, I talk and I write and I read, but I also have NO idea how to comport myself in a group so as not to be rejected. I can't even call to memory things I've done wrong, since I hadn't the slightest idea that they WERE wrong. I simply imply the "wrongness" by the remembered looks on other people's faces and their reactions to me. Quite a number of people won't even speak to me, for reasons I can't imagine. And now, after in most cases decades, I still don't know what I've done wrong.

And I'm sure I have done things wrong. "Wrong" in a social, inter-personal sense. I've never been arrested or accused of committing a crime, so in that sense I haven't done wrong. But with regard to the normal, automatic standards that people assume to be operative in groups, I had no idea then and I have no idea now. I very much fear that if I finally understand what I've done that's amiss, I'll sink under the shame and guilt I'd feel at that time.

I can't relate any of this to any of what I've read in psychology or any of what I've read or heard here on PC. I do assume that it's in some way neurotic, since I really don't think I'm either psychotic or have a personality disorder (though of course I can't really be conclusive about that). This makes me feel very, very bad. None of the people with whom I've had to deal have in any way comprehended that I had some kind of problem. Nor have I. I've just been socially isolated, marginalized, excluded. Which of course hasn't at all been unpleasant to me, since I'd much rather be isolated than otherwise. But now that I'm in therapy and trying to overcome these lifelong problems, the issue arises. I stay alive because my wife needs me. And in all truth that is not an excuse. If she predeceases me I have no doubt at all what I'll do. But since I have to stay alive until then, it would be much appreciated if you could help me with the question I'm asking here. Take care.

[lizardlady]

Ygrec, have you talked with your T about the autism spectrum disorders? People with these disorders have trouble intrpreting social cues. That sounds like what you are describing.

[Gulchenrouz]

there is nothing wrong with not wanting to fit in to a group or social situation, barriers are built to protect, you have probably found that removing those barriers will, or has, gotten you hurt in the past, so you rebuilt them, nothing wrong with that at all imo.

[Leed]

Hello ~ I'm sorry you seem so bothered by this. I myself feel I'm quite alot like you although I don't really let it bother me. I don't think I've done anything wrong ~ I just plain don't fit in to the "social scene" and I don't like to be among groups of people. I prefer a one on one scene. I find I'm uncomfortable in any larger setting and I don't really react well. I tend to withdraw and pretty much "sit in the corner" type thing. This makes people think that I'm either stuck-up or that I'm mentally retarded. LOL

Are you SURE that you've done something wrong? Or are you assuming that you have? There were times I had to stop and think if perhaps I'd done something too ~ but after thinking about it I found that I hadn't. It was just my mind trying to tell me lies. My mind is a dangerous neighborhood -- I need to stay out of there. lol

Talk to your therapist about this ~ he won't laugh at you or anything. This is a genuine concern of yours. Don't be afraid to bring it up. I would. I've told my therapist everything. I was in and out of therapy all my adult life - and now i'm finally out of therapy. I hope that's the end of it! God bless and please take care. Hugs, Lee

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by Leed

Hello ~ I'm sorry you seem so bothered by this. I myself feel I'm quite alot like you although I don't really let it bother me. I don't think I've done anything wrong ~ I just plain don't fit in to the "social scene" and I don't like to be among groups of people. I prefer a one on one scene. I find I'm uncomfortable in any larger setting and I don't really react well. I tend to withdraw and pretty much "sit in the corner" type thing. This makes people think that I'm either stuck-up or that I'm mentally retarded. LOL

Hi, Leed, and thanks for your message. The problem is, I DO want to fit in and be a member of the group, in this particular instance. And this goes back a very long time. I'm also VERY uncomfortable feeling condemned (of which I'm absolutely convinced) for things I've said or done of which I'm entirely unaware. Not that I was sleepwalking; I wasn't. But I just couldn't and cannot grasp what must be normal social rules. My impression is (I do not know this for a fact, but am just guessing) that "normal" people simply absorb these rules from those around them starting in childhood and continuing until the end of their lives. I've been rejected time and again, since adolescence, with people either obviously avoiding me or looking at me in a condemning way.

In therapy, I've been trying to overcome my difficulties with dissociation, which is how I lived my life since before memory begins. I'd like to overcome this problem too, or at least understand what I'm doing. I've had people who I thought were real friends reject me for these unknown reasons and be unwilling to explain their problems with what I say or do since to them, of course, I SHOULD understand the rules.

Are you SURE that you've done something wrong? Or are you assuming that you have? There were times I had to stop and think if perhaps I'd done something too ~ but after thinking about it I found that I hadn't. It was just my mind trying to tell me lies. My mind is a dangerous neighborhood -- I need to stay out of there. lol

Oh yes, I'm entirely sure. People just wouldn't look at me the way they do, or avoid me, without my having tripped up somewhere. This is NOT an assumption. And yes, my mind is ALSO a dangerous neighborhood, but in this particular instance (which extends over many, many experiences over forty or fifty years) I'm completely convinced that what I'm describing is objective reality.

Talk to your therapist about this ~ he won't laugh at you or anything. This is a genuine concern of yours. Don't be afraid to bring it up. I would. I've told my therapist everything. I was in and out of therapy all my adult life - and now i'm finally out of therapy. I hope that's the end of it! God bless and please take care. Hugs, Lee

Thank you, Lee, very much. I will talk to T about it on Monday. The only reason I haven't done so before is because thinking about it is very, very difficult for me. Not in any emotional sense, but in a conceptual sense. It perhaps could be compared to the mental difficulty I would have at the beginning of being taught advanced calculus, and me being a history student with no mathematical background. It's very hard for me to get my mind to conceive of it and has taken years and years for me to mentally bring together many incidents over many decades and see them as one single problem. Had you asked me about this five years ago, or even two years ago, I wouldn't have had the least understanding of what you were talking about. Take care!

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Yes, I talk and I write and I read, but I also have NO idea how to comport myself in a group so as not to be rejected.

One way to do it is to just listen. You don't always have to "do" anything, though many will expect that of you. And you might be surprised at how favorably people will respond to you if they detect that you are really listening!

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

People just wouldn't look at me the way they do, or avoid me, without my having tripped up somewhere. This is NOT an assumption.

Maybe they have problems dealing with someone who does things they don't expect. There are a few people who do not react that way, though. Not all problems are because of you.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Maybe they have problems dealing with someone who does things they don't expect. There are a few people who do not react that way, though. Not all problems are because of you.

I thank you for the comment, Pach, and I do understand that "[n]ot all problems are because of [me]." But I'm quite convinced that I'm talking about a problem with myself, and not with others. For example, I've always been a very fearful person, and have never, until recently, been aware that giving in to one's fears is just something one mustn't do, though of course I've read about this rule in books since I was a kid. And I have no doubt, now, that many people in the past have judged me very negatively for social cowardice. I have no doubt at all that had I known about this rule and its importance, I would never have done many of the things I have done. I strongly desire to follow basic social norms. And there are other such rules that I haven't known about. I think it's very, very difficult for normal people to conceive of others like myself, who are very verbally agile and obviously intelligent but don't know about basic social rules. Right now I'm trying to find out what professionals call this kind of problem. As you've seen already on this thread, some people relate it to an autism spectrum disorder. And it's true that I was and am very physically clumsy too. But are there other possibilities? I don't know. Take care.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

I've always been a very fearful person, and have never, until recently, been aware that giving in to one's fears is just something one mustn't do

Mustn't do? Who made that rule?

I think giving in to one's fears is something that happens sometimes. Not the best move, maybe, but one can try to do better the next time. Self-condemnation makes the situation only worse.

My cats have no trouble running away when they are frightened. It helps preserve their lives. Maybe we do not want to do that, because it is not always the most effective way to cope with things, but it is useful to me to see them very simply act out their instincts. They do not second-guess themselves. Again, maybe it is not the best we want of ourselves, but it is also part of nature. Condemning, either by others or by ourselves, does not seem to help.

Sometimes I can look at myself and realize "I am afraid!". Accepting that makes it actually easier to deal with; denying it makes it harder.

[madisgram]

sometimes ygrac i feel you intellectualize rather than post on a feeling level. like u possibly use this as a protective barrier from others. imho there's nothing to fear about our feelings. they're not good or bad, they just are. i used to intellectualize everything including how i envisioned myself cause it made me feel safer. in therapy i learned to avoid this old behavior so i could learn about who i truly am. once i was able to know who i am "in the now" rather than looking for meaning of whence it came i could feel more comfortable in my own skin. what came first, the chicken or the egg lost it's meaning. i overcame the feeling that i had to hide my true self from others for fear they would think me strange. i learned to let go and like myself. then i was able to forge new relationships that were more meaningful. but the success was from liking me first.
i have a brother that seems to have many of the traits you mentioned. so i have witnessed similar behavior firsthand. i know he doesn't want anyone to get too close. as a result he isolates himself from others. his siblings-me included-feel robbed from being able to show our love for him. so we don't even know if he knows we love him because he doesn't allow us to show it. i'm glad you are willing to discuss this because it makes you more "human". i mean this in a kind way. i know it took courage to open up here at pc.
in your case i believe therapy may help you re this and i encourage you to bring in up with your T. sometimes in the past i felt if someone really knew me for 'real" they wouldn't really like me. does this ring a bell with you?
idk, just thought i'd contribute to this thread. i hope it may help.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Mustn't do? Who made that rule?

I assure you that in the groups I deal with that is very much the rule.

I think giving in to one's fears is something that happens sometimes. Not the best move, maybe, but one can try to do better the next time. Self-condemnation makes the situation only worse.

My fears of other people are overwhelming. I'm hoping to deal with that in therapy but so far, after six months of T, it has not yet been accomplished.

My cats have no trouble running away when they are frightened. It helps preserve their lives. Maybe we do not want to do that, because it is not always the most effective way to cope with things, but it is useful to me to see them very simply act out their instincts. They do not second-guess themselves. Again, maybe it is not the best we want of ourselves, but it is also part of nature. Condemning, either by others or by ourselves, does not seem to help.

Yes. I act just like your cats (and my cats). People, however, particularly men, are just not supposed to act that way. And if you don't believe that, just try it. I'm not talking about physical courage. I'm talking about being frightened of other people.

Sometimes I can look at myself and realize "I am afraid!". Accepting that makes it actually easier to deal with; denying it makes it harder

For me, "accepting that" and acting on it has led, consistently over many years, to ostracism. My problem has been, as I see it, that I haven't denied it but have given in to it.

Take care.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

I simply imply the "wrongness"

Whatever we imply is what "is" for us, no matter what those outside of us say or do? Take here at PC, for example; as far as I know (at least my perception) you are well-liked and respected here; what do you make of that? Do you feel the barrier here at PC?

I suspect you got a "bad" signal when an infant and built on that without ever checking it out or questioning it again. There's always multiple points of view, at a minimum two or three, for every interaction, but we can not question our own interior one and be stuck, inside ourselves, with or without meaning to be. I spent most of my life "safe" inside myself only the space got too small and, after a zillion years of therapy I came to see it all wasn't a matter of "safety" and I'd had a harder time of it, longer, than I needed to have had (if I could have understood what I needed sooner than I did).

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by madisgram

sometimes ygrac i feel you intellectualize rather than post on a feeling level. like u possibly use this as a protective barrier from others.

Yes, no question. You're right.

imho there's nothing to fear about our feelings. they're not good or bad, they just are.

Well, a lot of my feelings are incredibly painful. So I've spent my life repressing them.

once i was able to know who i am "in the now" rather than looking for meaning of whence it came i could feel more comfortable in my own skin.

I think that the answer to "whence it came" is a step on the road to deflating these feelings. Accepting myself comes later.

i overcame the feeling that i had to hide my true self from others for fear they would think me strange. i learned to let go and like myself.

In all truth, I don't think I've ever felt a need to hide "my true self" from others. From myself, yes; from others, no. And that's a good part of the problem. I think.

in your case i believe therapy may help you re this and i encourage you to bring in up with your T.

Absolutely. It goes right to the top of the list.

sometimes in the past i felt if someone really knew me for 'real" they wouldn't really like me. does this ring a bell with you?

Mmmmmm, not really. Basically, for me, I think and have thought that other people would kill me. This has nothing to do with a hidden "real me" or otherwise. Deep down, I'm convinced I learned this as a baby and simply kept on thinking so throughout my life.

Thanks for your post. Take care.

[purple_fins]

Oh my gosh ygrec! I think we must be twins. I swear I could have written just what you wrote!! it's actualy quite eerie!

Though, I have talked about this in therapy, as my lonliness gets so unbearable. Not sure if this pertains to you-- but I'll explain just in case----
Because of such a volatile environment I was in from birth-- SURVIVAL was from the get go. I didn't get time to "learn" social "dances", like 99% of the other kids. I had to take care of myself and try ever ever so hard to keep myself safe and those around me safe. Safety became the first priority and pretty much the only priority. The mother was a russian roulette game that could explode at any moment without warning. Her emotions were so not safe. and also many other adults in my life proved to be unsafe too, as I was phycially abused by a much older sister(she took out her frustration on me for her being with an abusive husband-- I was the whipping girl) and then another older sister's husband abused me in another way.... I believe I learned that there is no safe person.
Could this be kind of like your roots too? when you were a child-- did everyone seem scary to you? did you ever go to parties and hang out with groups of kids? (I never did.... ) Were you perhaps in survival mode so much so that you missed the other "developing lessons"?

The therapist now is trying to show me how people aren't as dangerous as I tend to think they are...... but.... I'm not so convinced of this yet. If only they could all be as nice and understanding as she is.

I find this type communication-- forums-- to feel a tiny bit safer than IRL. but still..... have you seen my "friend" list? how do so many here get 100+ or 50+ or even 30+ friends?
it baffles me......
as I sit in my familar spot-- on the outside looking in.......

if ever you need an "ear"- I'm here... by post, messaging or PM.

fins

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by Perna

Whatever we imply is what "is" for us, no matter what those outside of us say or do? Take here at PC, for example; as far as I know (at least my perception) you are well-liked and respected here; what do you make of that? Do you feel the barrier here at PC?.

No, Perna, I don't feel the barrier here or elsewhere on the internet. Which is why I'm addicted to it. IRL, I avoid other people like the plague, whether in person or on the telephone. Also, IRL, I have almost no personal or professional friends. We're friendly with one couple about 75 miles away and we see them around once a year. I have one professional friend out of hundreds of acquaintances. My brothers and I exchange phone calls three or four times a year.

I suspect you got a "bad" signal when an infant and built on that without ever checking it out or questioning it again. There's always multiple points of view, at a minimum two or three, for every interaction, but we can not question our own interior one and be stuck, inside ourselves, with or without meaning to be. I spent most of my life "safe" inside myself only the space got too small and, after a zillion years of therapy I came to see it all wasn't a matter of "safety" and I'd had a harder time of it, longer, than I needed to have had (if I could have understood what I needed sooner than I did

Yes, me too. Bad signals as an infant. I then spent my life safe inside myself until the recession arrived and required me for the first time in my life to be much more outgoing and aggressive. That first made me s******l and then forced me into therapy last summer.

Thanks! And take care.

[lynn P.]

Hi Ygrec23 - you recieved some great answers so far. I've been thinking about your post since I logged on this morning and I hope I can explain my view on this and I also agree with some of the other posts here. I think it's a positive thing you're pondering this and realize you want this to change and be more comfortable around people in real life. I will say it's important to choose 'nice/kind' people to be around, since they're more accepting as a whole.

I'll tell you a bit about myself - I was painfully shy as a child until I learned to manage it in my 20's. I had social anxiety and longed to fit in some where like you. One advantage of being shy is, I had lots of opportunity to watch people and became very intuitive with people - it's erie sometimes lol. Eventually I just pushed myself to be more out going...basically desensitized myself.

I think you basically have social anxiety and might be over sensitive to people in general. As you've mentioned in other posts, I think you said you had a 'narcisitic' mother. I would imagine this must have be hard living in a house like that - kind of 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' kind of vibes. It makes sense to me, that you most likely adapted by withdrawing and not reacting - you shut down emotionally. When you went out to the real world and as a boy in school, you were naturally socially awkward, therefore when you got negative feedback...this further enforced your own negative feelings about yourself.

Most people become socially adapted when they're kids. With my own kids, I was hoping they wouldn't be shy like I was, so I took them to pre-school play groups, to make sure they were well socialized. Luckily they're both socially balanced.

The goal would be to, slowly get involved with social groups and people. If you have a hobby, maybe you can join a group IRL. People with social anxiety are constantly censoring themselves and aware of how they're feeling. They end up feeling so uncomfortable and end up withdrawing form people because it's too painful. I agree with Perna - you seem well liked here and very intelligent in your writing.

Another thing that would be great is if, you could have a few consultation with a 'life coach' - someone who could be very honest with you. What I mean is - sometimes we don't realize how we appear, when we're talking to people. For example, in a a group setting or even with kids in a classroom - you/I can tell who are the comfortable ones and who's not. People with social anxiety give off clear vibes and body language. I do this myself when I'm not comfortable. A life coach, good friend or your therapist could help you with this - simply ask them to give you an honest opinion of 'how you come across...what's the 1st imprssion you give'. Best of luck.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by purple_fins

Oh my gosh ygrec! I think we must be twins. I swear I could have written just what you wrote!! it's actualy quite eerie! Though, I have talked about this in therapy, as my lonliness gets so unbearable. Not sure if this pertains to you

Ummm, no, it doesn't. I have never felt lonely in my life. For me, other people are so dangerous that there can't be any "loneliness" from me toward them; it would be like being lonely for tarantulas or hungry tigers.

-- but I'll explain just in case---- Because of such a volatile environment I was in from birth-- SURVIVAL was from the get go. I didn't get time to "learn" social "dances", like 99% of the other kids. I had to take care of myself and try ever ever so hard to keep myself safe and those around me safe. Safety became the first priority and pretty much the only priority.

Yes, same here. Except I don't understand the "keep ... those around me safe."

The mother was a russian roulette game that could explode at any moment without warning. Her emotions were so not safe.

My mother was not a russian roulette mother. She was ALWAYS bad news. Not off and on.

and also many other adults in my life proved to be unsafe too, as I was phycially abused by a much older sister(she took out her frustration on me for her being with an abusive husband-- I was the whipping girl) and then another older sister's husband abused me in another way.... I believe I learned that there is no safe person.

Hmmm. For me it was just my mother. Dad was busy starting a business all the time. After me my brothers also got a good dose of mom. One was a heroin addict (he's dead), one's a lifetime alcoholic, one had a full, old-fashioned, Freudian 5-day-a-week psychoanalysis and moved to the other side of the country and never spoke with anyone again until recently, forty years later.

Could this be kind of like your roots too? when you were a child-- did everyone seem scary to you? did you ever go to parties and hang out with groups of kids? (I never did.... ) Were you perhaps in survival mode so much so that you missed the other "developing lessons"?

Yes.

The therapist now is trying to show me how people aren't as dangerous as I tend to think they are...... but.... I'm not so convinced of this yet. If only they could all be as nice and understanding as she is.

Me too.

I find this type communication-- forums-- to feel a tiny bit safer than IRL. but still..... have you seen my "friend" list? how do so many here get 100+ or 50+ or even 30+ friends? it baffles me...... as I sit in my familar spot-- on the outside looking in....... if ever you need an "ear"- I'm here... by post, messaging or PM. fins

Thanks, fins. I'll take you up on that offer. Take care!

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by lynn P.

Hi Ygrec23 - you recieved some great answers so far. I've been thinking about your post since I logged on this morning and I hope I can explain my view on this and I also agree with some of the other posts here. I think it's a positive thing you're pondering this and realize you want this to change and be more comfortable around people in real life. I will say it's important to choose 'nice/kind' people to be around, since they're more accepting as a whole.

I agree, lynn; the people here on PC have been wonderful. But I haven't just decided "out of the blue" to change. I really don't think I ever could have done it voluntarily. RL situations simply require it. I'm being forced to do it. I really don't have a choice. As for "nice/kind" people, I'm not all that sure I can make that distinction, given how terrified I am of ALL people.

I'll tell you a bit about myself - I was painfully shy as a child until I learned to manage it in my 20's. I had social anxiety and longed to fit in some where like you. One advantage of being shy is, I had lots of opportunity to watch people and became very intuitive with people - it's erie sometimes lol. Eventually I just pushed myself to be more out going...basically desensitized myself.

Agreed. I was diagnosed by my pdoc (who I've been consulting for years before starting therapy again) as having both social anxiety and GAD, which I've certainly had all my life. I have tried and tried to desensitize myself, to no avail.

I think you basically have social anxiety and might be over sensitive to people in general. As you've mentioned in other posts, I think you said you had a 'narcisitic' mother. I would imagine this must have be hard living in a house like that - kind of 'damned if you do and damned if you don't' kind of vibes.

I'm sure you're right as to social anxiety and being over-sensitive. And yes, mom was a highly narcissistic person, which deeply affected her children. (I have no idea why she had any, let alone four.) Back in those days, though, women had to be housewives and mothers, and mom was also in competition with her four sisters, none of whom were like her in personality.

It makes sense to me, that you most likely adapted by withdrawing and not reacting - you shut down emotionally. When you went out to the real world and as a boy in school, you were naturally socially awkward, therefore when you got negative feedback...this further enforced your own negative feelings about yourself.

You are probably entirely right.

Most people become socially adapted when they're kids. With my own kids, I was hoping they wouldn't be shy like I was, so I took them to pre-school play groups, to make sure they were well socialized. Luckily they're both socially balanced.

Wow. They tried that on me when I was 3, 4, 5 years old. And it NEVER worked, even at real school. I have the most vivid recollections of being fobbed off on pre-school playgroups and pre-school and real school and being utterly terrified. Even in second grade. Terror and tears (mine). It was only in third grade that I started to get accustomed to school.

The goal would be to, slowly get involved with social groups and people. If you have a hobby, maybe you can join a group IRL. People with social anxiety are constantly censoring themselves and aware of how they're feeling.

That simply hasn't worked with me. I've forced myself, over the years, to join such groups. And I've stayed with them for years at a time. With no desensitizing result at all. I'm quite convinced that if I ever feel more comfortable with people it will only happen through psychodynamic therapy.

Another thing that would be great is if, you could have a few consultation with a 'life coach' - someone who could be very honest with you. What I mean is - sometimes we don't realize how we appear, when we're talking to people. For example, in a a group setting or even with kids in a classroom - you/I can tell who are the comfortable ones and who's not. People with social anxiety give off clear vibes and body language. I do this myself when I'm not comfortable. A life coach, good friend or your therapist could help you with this - simply ask them to give you an honest opinion of 'how you come across...what's the 1st imprssion you give'. Best of luck.

This sounds like a very good idea indeed. I'll ask T about it next week. See what she says. Thanks! And take care!

[madisgram]

ygrec, i'm doube dipping and i'm sure you prob already know this-children's personalities, etc are formed in the first 6 years, they say. parents primarily mold the child. i feel very sad that your formative years were so unnurturing. your mom obviously had the negative impact on you that i'm sure has made you what/how you are socially and then some. your siblings were affected too and have sought other avenues to cope tho they were not healthy solutions, imho.
the flip side is this- and i think you know it deep down-therapy including trama therapy sounds like a healthy way for you to get the help you desire.
i did psychodrama with a psychiatrist. i thought it would be a lot of hoo-ey. i was surprised to find it helped me. i was able to let go and regress to my early childhood with his guidance. he had asked me prior to describe my father and the pdoc took on his persona to a "T". i had a "loving" father but his love i found was conditional. he also tried to control me re friends, academics, and pretty much kept me in a bubble. thus i did not know how to problem solve etc, he did that for me, and it resulted in my not understanding "life" as most ppl. i was his puppet and he ruled. i found i had so much pent up anger and frustration that i was totally unaware of. in psych drama the pdoc took me back to my childhood. he asked me to picture the little girl beside me as my 5 year old self. he asked me what i wanted to do. i said, take her hand and tell her i love her and that she is safe. i sobbed envisioning how very frightened she looked. the sessions took me thru the age of about 20-the age i was when my father died. before the last session ended i screamed "i want to dig you up and shake your bones!!!!!" i was furious with him for putting me thru such a living hell when i was so little, innocent and afraid.
my situation is different from yours but his affect on me forced me to get help to change all those incorrect messages i was forced to live with about my 'role" in life. i coped just the opposite of you by being a social butterfly. later i "coped" by becoming an alcoholic.
sorry for the long post.

[billieJ]

((((((((((ygrec)))))))))))))) I don't think you have done a thing wrong. I, too, feel too uncomfortable in groups to go among them, now that i have retired. Since you have a wife, you must be more capable of relationships than I! So far as doing something to yourself, when she has gone, don't! Life is short enough for us to learn what we have to learn. Talk to your therapist about your feelings and see, also, if you should need treatment for any depression. Please.

[lynn P.]

I just wanted to ask a hypothetical question Ygrec. If you could meet a small group or a couple people who guaranteed would accept you, even at your worst...would you feel comfortable with this?

I reached a point where I just surrendered and let my anxiety go. Now I don't worry and I don't care if some people don't like me. I know some do and stick with those kind of folks. Volunteer groups might be a good place to start - at least you would all be there for the same reason, working on a common goal...rather than a typical group where they're trying to find a common ground between each other. A person can be a solitary type but do well in a volunteer group.

[Michah]

Hi there,

Human beings terrify me to the core and enamour me the same. I am in love with people. People fascinate me, yet I do not understand them. They are foreign and emotional with wonderful faces and beautiful smiles. People fill me such longing and despair that it becomes unbearable at times. I wish to possess what they do, and it is not emotion for I possess that, it is the intimate and beautifully full dance of intimacy and connectedness. It is the unspoken and the expression that I lack. I wonder if some of that relates to you.

One small and minute example the grand scheme of things stands out for me as a child. Everyone had a barbie doll. I had a tonka truck. Even though I was a little girl, dolls did not interest me, but I loved shiny, glossy things and Barbie was shiny and glossy. I did not play with her, I just sat her there and looked at her lovely hair. I put her in my Tonka truck and drove her around. I remember at school I overheard a group of girls talking about getting the Barbie car and in my usual butting in before I realised how rude it was(and consequently bullied for my inappropriate responses), I asked the girls why they needed a Barbie car. A Tonka Truck worked just as well and Barbie could get work done shifting soil or coal while she looked shiny and glossy. "Barbie can't be in a Tonka truck, stupid! She has to be in a Barbie car!"

And so I walked away knowing that I had committed a great offence of social understanding, but not really knowing why. A car is a car is it not? But the look on those girls faces said it all, and I stored in my data banks with all the other indecipherable information I had collected. I was not just different, I was inhuman for I did not undertand the "dance" and paid heavily for it.

37 years later, I still don't understand it, even with all the therapy and gosh knows what, but I am beginning to accept that I don't understand it and never will. What I have learnt is that I still love and care deeply, it just comes out in a very strange and unusual way. That I have a myriad of skills that work on a superficial level, but intimacy alludes me. I cry out for connection without a language that others can understand. I try and change the frequency, so others can pick up the signal. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I try and forgive myself for that now.

Take good care of your precious self. You love and are loved, dearly. It is very hard and very despairing to look at another in their natural state and think "They LOOK so loving. How do they do that? What is that flicker of rapture on their face as they look at another? Why does my face not look like that, even if I feel it?".......But I try and enjoy it when I see it, for it makes me love humans.

Biggest hugs on this journey, dear one. Find and treasure moments of joy, no matter how they come

Michah

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by Michah

Hi there, Human beings terrify me to the core and enamour me the same. I am in love with people. People fascinate me, yet I do not understand them.

Same here. Particularly as to the failure to understand. Since I was very small (my parents were very advanced art consumers) I have associated people with abstract expressionist paintings. Hard to grasp.

I wish to possess what they do, and it is not emotion for I possess that, it is the intimate and beautifully full dance of intimacy and connectedness. It is the unspoken and the expression that I lack. I wonder if some of that relates to you.

The dance of intimacy and connectedness. I've never heard it so well expressed. Yes, that is what I'd like (would long) to participate in. You may remember a very old and, I believe, Walt Disney cartoon about Johnny Appleseed. I saw it as a tiny. At one point in the movie, all the characters dance on down the road, singing a song to Johnny Appleseed that if he doesn't join them, he'll be left behind. Left behind. Like I was left behind. Or one of the crippled children who didn't make it into Nirvana with the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Hmmm.

One small and minute example the grand scheme of things stands out for me as a child. Everyone had a barbie doll. I had a tonka truck.

Well, needless to say, I never had or wanted a barbie doll. But I did love tonka (and any other kind of ) trucks or cars. With which I played entirely on my own, with no other pals or friends, just by myself.

I was not just different, I was inhuman for I did not understand the "dance" and paid heavily for it.

Oh yeah, yeah. It's by no means just girls who have that problem. By no means at all. The "dance" can be an "onlooker" proposal for all kinds of children.

37 years later, I still don't understand it, even with all the therapy and gosh knows what, but I am beginning to accept that I don't understand it and never will. What I have learnt is that I still love and care deeply, it just comes out in a very strange and unusual way.

I strongly believe that even if we missed the dance growing up, out of sheer force of desire we can later on create and lead new dances for others, new dances including everyone, because we need and want them so much, and because everyone, EVERYONE, really, really wants an ALL-INCLUSIVE DANCE!!! The narrow, restrictive dances are for small minorities of the past, whose time has long gone.

Biggest hugs on this journey, dear one. Find and treasure moments of joy, no matter how they comeMichah

And biggest hugs to you, Michah, and may you lead the dance where you are and who you are right now!!! Take care.

[sunrise]

Ygrec, what you describe sounds very similar to what I've read about Asperger's syndrome. Not grasping social rules, not knowing what one does that turns people away, etc. Do you think that fits?

I think your T will have some insight into this and know what you are doing to "break social rules" or drive people away. The way you interact with your therapist reflects how you interact with other people, so I think she will know. My T has told me some things about the way I interact with people that I didn't know was a problem and this has been helpful to me in starting to recognize ineffective interpersonal skills I can improve on.

[FooZe]

(((((Michah)))))

Originally Posted by Michah

Everyone had a barbie doll. I had a tonka truck. Even though I was a little girl, dolls did not interest me, but I loved shiny, glossy things and Barbie was shiny and glossy. I did not play with her, I just sat her there and looked at her lovely hair. I put her in my Tonka truck and drove her around.

Just for the record, I support you (retroactively) in playing with the toys you liked in the way you liked!

I remember at school I overheard a group of girls talking about getting the Barbie car and in my usual butting in before I realised how rude it was(and consequently bullied for my inappropriate responses)...

I have a hunch that when someone was looking to bully you, they picked on whatever they could find. If you hadn't provided them with (what you now call) inappropriate responses, they would have had to settle for bugging you about the length of your hair or the color of your socks.

I asked the girls why they needed a Barbie car. A Tonka Truck worked just as well and Barbie could get work done shifting soil or coal while she looked shiny and glossy. "Barbie can't be in a Tonka truck, stupid! She has to be in a Barbie car!"

That may be a limitation -- but it sounds like it's their limitation and they're proud of it!

And so I walked away knowing that I had committed a great offence of social understanding, but not really knowing why. A car is a car is it not? But the look on those girls faces said it all, and I stored in my data banks with all the other indecipherable information I had collected. I was not just different, I was inhuman for I did not undertand the "dance" and paid heavily for it.

Or else... they were compelled to keep dancing because it protected them from having to deal with people they didn't understand.

What I have learnt is that I still love and care deeply, it just comes out in a very strange and unusual way. That I have a myriad of skills that work on a superficial level, but intimacy alludes me.

I'm not saying this is actually so, but: If it were to turn out that the secret is that there is no secret, the harder you were looking for the secret, the longer it would take you to realize that.

I cry out for connection without a language that others can understand. I try and change the frequency, so others can pick up the signal. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I try and forgive myself for that now.

Sounds to me like you're doing just fine communicating, with or without a language.

[Ygrec, just because I'm replying to Michah, that doesn't mean I'm not also replying to you.]