[johnspeaks]

Let me try to explain what I am looking for, their seems to be two seperate groups of people with mental illness? First group is under the care of the mental health industry and is about 10% of the total population of human beings with mental illness? The second group is not under the care of mental health professionals such as the homeless with mental illness and people who refuse any help because they don't think they have a problem? Military veterans who have many types of mental illness and brain disorders etc. because of battlefield conditions etc.? These groups probably account for about 90% of the total population of people with mental illness? In my interaction with both of these groups I have come to realize that the larger group 90% that want nothing to do with the mental health industry have a good point in that they seem to be better off without the man made drugs and their side effects and suffering and false hope of recovery etc. associated with the mental health industry? So again I will repeat the question, would -You- be better off having no mental health treatment plan with all the pain and suffering and experimentation and false hope of real recovery or just living with your mental illness without the man made pain and suffering???

[ladyjrnlist]

I've lived for years untreated for bipolar. I can say with absolute certainty that I prefer the system and the medications. It saved my life.

[Omers]

I was better before I got into the mental health system... now that I am in I need another healing system to get the hell out.

[anna342]

I guess you'll never know what could have happened if the opposite of whatever did happen happened (if you got treatment rather than didn't and vice versa). I also think the answer is going to vary hugely, everyone knows that different types and amounts of therapy and treatment are available and also everyone reacts differently.

I know personally that I saw that it was unlikely I could carry on the way I was. It was dangerous, destroying my career and I had no life. I'm not claiming therapy has made me better, I'm still hoping and waiting, but I don't see how just sitting back and accepting my life as that would have been better for me. It was hell, and I couldn't cope with it.

[sabby]

johnspeaks, I'm not quite sure exactly what you are trying to get at with this post and a couple of others that you have made. Are you looking for information to be used elsewhere? Are these questions purely for your own information to validate or invalidate your own experience? Are you looking to make a specific statement about these questions at some point?

One thing I can say with utmost certainty is that there are way too many variables within each person's life that creates their experience and who is to say that even if they are in a difficult place now with therapy and/or meds, that it won't get better in the future.

There is no tried or true direction one should take with their mental health issues. What works for one may or may not work for another. We all work differently. And, what may work for us one time may not work the best for us in another instance. That would make our answers that are made now, in the place we are, worthless down the road, tonight, tomorrow or even next year.

Those are my thoughts for what they are worth.

[johnspeaks]

Since I have been lucky or unlucky to see and hear and experience the many different aspects of the mental health industry as an outside observer with -Empathy-. One thing that is constant is that their is a huge amount of pain and suffering etc. and almost no real success at recovery only stabilizing some human beings with mental illness. My purpose in bringing attention to the hidden pain and suffering and suicides of mental health clients is to get people to acknowledge that this mental health system is a complete total failure and will never stop their man made -Torture-. So lets get everything out in the open and the public will see the waste of billions of taxpayers dollars and the inhuman torture of vulnerable human beings in the name of recovery? Anything is better than this never ending -Ponzi Scheme- that only helps supposed mental health professionals.

[Omers]

Yes, I have been harmed by the system. I have also been helped by the system. All the professionals were doing the very best they could with everything they had. I am very happy and grateful for my current T and all she has to offer me.

It IS better than nothing. It IS better than being a zombi. People DO find healing.

[anna342]

"this mental health system is a complete total failure and will never stop their man made -Torture-."

I think this statement is hugely weighted by your opinion and quite honestly, flawed. I feel very unformfortable with you throwing that around. Perhaps that is how you feel about it for yourself, but you cannot judge every treatment and therapy used across every country in the world since you have no experienced it alongside all the variations of mental health problems.

[Elysium]

The mental health system in the US is extremely dysfunctional, as is the entire healthcare system. I am not one who is fond of taking medications. As a Nurse, I see Big Pharma sticking their greedy hands into too many people's pockets. It's overwhelming.

All this being said, I will take the "so called" false hope and pain and torture as you so call it, and reap whatever sanity, hope, and peace I can find within the system and within myself because I know that the real false hope and torture came from a life of being abused and neglected in all ways, all while being told that I was loved and that I was the bad one. You don't get any more hopeless than a child/adult child believing that abuse is love and that you deserve it.

I honestly don't know how to digest your "non-professional" questions. It seems like you've put some thought into them. The truth is different for everybody. What is best and true for you will not necessarily be best and true for the next person. The real blessing is that most of us have some sort of say and CHOICE as to how, when, and where we participate in the mental health system. If it's not your cup of tea, get a cup of coffee. You make your own choices and control your own destiny, but leave my false hope alone. It's the only hope I have right now.

[Unfriendly]

Or the third, people who have genuine problems and disabilities, and for whom the mental health industry presents a separate but related problem. I personally have pretty ****ing serious **** going on because of my various mental illnesses and disorders and disabilities, but I have read the stories of autistic children being physically restrained and the side effects of psychiatric medications to decide on my own that that is not for me.

I was talking to a man today who got addicted to benzos by taking them for anxiety exactly how his doctor told him to. He was involuntarily hospitalized and the hospital "didn't believe in benzos" so they took them away and didn't give them back. Now he's going through a potentially fatal withdrawl and intense paranoia and he's developed tics from the withdrawl that he doesn't know if they're permanent.

No ****ing thank you. I need help but I do not need that kind of help.

[sabby]

Thanks for answering my question johnspeaks.

As I said, everyone has their own experiences and things change constantly within our lives and our paths through our illnesses. I think for anyone to come here and tout that without a doubt everything and everyone working within our mental health system is a failure is absurd and quite frankly, stirring up trouble.

PC means support for those suffering with mental illness. We support everyone within their own beliefs and experiences. When someone comes in and makes hugely broad statements about how dysfunctional the mental health care system is, as though they are the end all do all, to me is highly suspect as to what your true intentions are. I don't mean to be contrary or rude, but it just "doesn't feel right" to me. It feels back-handed to me and I'm not comfortable with this kind of questioning of our community.

Again, these are "my" feelings and thoughts, for what they are worth.

[johnspeaks]

Originally Posted by Elysium

The mental health system in the US is extremely dysfunctional, as is the entire healthcare system. I am not one who is fond of taking medications. As a Nurse, I see Big Pharma sticking their greedy hands into too many people's pockets. It's overwhelming.

All this being said, I will take the "so called" false hope and pain and torture as you so call it, and reap whatever sanity, hope, and peace I can find within the system and within myself because I know that the real false hope and torture came from a life of being abused and neglected in all ways, all while being told that I was loved and that I was the bad one. You don't get any more hopeless than a child/adult child believing that abuse is love and that you deserve it.

I honestly don't know how to digest your "non-professional" questions. It seems like you've put some thought into them. The truth is different for everybody. What is best and true for you will not necessarily be best and true for the next person. The real blessing is that most of us have some sort of say and CHOICE as to how, when, and where we participate in the mental health system. If it's not your cup of tea, get a cup of coffee. You make your own choices and control your own destiny, but leave my false hope alone. It's the only hope I have right now.

-You- are absolutely correct and I don't want to take your -Hope- of real recovery away from you but the part I object to is the brain washing and the pain and suffering and experimentation etc. by the mental health industry? -Hope- is used by the mental health industry too prolong their never ending -Ponzi Scheme- of pain and suffering and experimentation and false hope? This is one of the reasons that I am looking for answers from the mental health clients themselves who have given me their valuable insight into mental illness? Now if all of us keep talking we will find an answer that works for the majority of clients with mental illness that does not include all the pain and suffering and experimentation and false hope etc.? When I worked for a mental health rehabilitation facility we discovered a number of ways that really helped the clients with their mental illness? Nobody in the mental health industry throughout the United States was interested because we were not mental health professionals or maybe they just wanted to keep their -Ponzi Scheme- going???

[Omers]

IMO you are all over the charts. I'm having a really hard time figuring out what on earth you are wanting/needing/looking for.

BUT PC is not a pool of lab rats.

[venusss]

I am not part of the "system"... by a choice. I chose alternative approach... I want to live up to my potential... and live the best life possible.

I just wonder why are you so concerned about "suffering". That is a part of human life and can't have it any other way. Not say anybody should suffer unneccessarily... but you cannot live life free of pain.

[elliemay]

I would contend that a lot of the suffering associated with mental illness is not, as you describe "man-made" but is, in no small way, biogenic in origin.

Of course there are cognitive distortions, maladaptive coping mechanisms and other behaviors that can be unlearned, but depression, schizophrenia, PTSD, bipolar disorder and a host of the so-called personality disorders have associated physiological changes in the brain.

The question is, I think, does a "one-size fits all" medication schema fit all? Obviously the answer is no, as each person's life experience and the innate plasticity of the brain influence, and perhaps even, control their response and choice of medication.

Does the mental health industry fail people - absolutely. For these illnesses there is no cure, but there can be effective management for the inevitable remission/relapse cycle.

Also new and promising research may bring entirely novel treatment to bear.

I don't think anyone is promising a life of blue birds singing and whiskey springing, but improvement can - and does - occur.

I, clearly, am a strong advocate for mental demanding the best in mental heath care and treatment. No system is perfect, but I do think things are getting better. IMO medications definitely contribute to that improvement.

[johnspeaks]

Originally Posted by sabby

Thanks for answering my question johnspeaks.

As I said, everyone has their own experiences and things change constantly within our lives and our paths through our illnesses. I think for anyone to come here and tout that without a doubt everything and everyone working within our mental health system is a failure is absurd and quite frankly, stirring up trouble.

PC means support for those suffering with mental illness. We support everyone within their own beliefs and experiences. When someone comes in and makes hugely broad statements about how dysfunctional the mental health care system is, as though they are the end all do all, to me is highly suspect as to what your true intentions are. I don't mean to be contrary or rude, but it just "doesn't feel right" to me. It feels back-handed to me and I'm not comfortable with this kind of questioning of our community.

Again, these are "my" feelings and thoughts, for what they are worth.

-You- are correct in your comments about my postings and I apologize for any discomfort I might have caused? My intentions are honorable and since your comments and other comments are made from your point of view of your comfort zone, I will not bother you or others in the Psych Central Forum? Thank You?

[A Quiet Mind]

Hi John, I think I can understand some of what you're saying. For a long time I was so angry with some of my husbands doctors. It seemed like the most vulnerable patients were just kind of pumped full of drugs and then left to their own devices. When I started to look at it like a relationship it began to make a lot more sense. Doctors are human, have very little time and when dealing with mentally ill patients aren't always being told the whole truth of what's happening. It's unfortunate but why not find someone to help you advocate for yourself, for a loved one, for others?

Blame and all or nothing statements are great ways to vent so I'm all for it. Now, if you want change then that's a whole different story

[ECHOES]

So again I will repeat the question, would -You- be better off having no mental health treatment plan with all the pain and suffering and experimentation and false hope of real recovery or just living with your mental illness without the man made pain and suffering???

This definition and interpretation of treatment are yours alone. Your own separate thoughts about this, as we are all separate and with our own separate minds and thoughts.

I do not suffer in my treatment. My treatment is leading me to a much better place of being. Experimentation is not part of my treatment. False hope has never been offered.
I wouldn't trade my treatment, my relationship with my therapist, for anything.

I think you have gotten responses to your question.
Do you want to say more about your own separate situation and your treatment experience?