In today's excerpt - most soldiers are reluctant to fire their weapons when confronted by the enemy:

"During World War II, U.S. Army Brigadier General S. L. A. Marshall asked the average soldiers what it was that they did in battle. His singularly unexpected discovery was that, of every hundred men along the line of fire during the period of an encounter, an average of only 15 to 20 'would take any part with their weapons.' This was consistently true 'whether the action was spread over a day, or two days or three.'

"Marshall [and his team] based their findings on individual and mass interviews with thousands of soldiers in more than four hundred infantry companies, in Europe and in the Pacific, immediately after they had been in close combat with German or Japanese troops. The results were consistently the same: only 15 to 20 percent of the American riflemen in combat during World War II would fire at the enemy. ... The question is why. ... [The answer] is the simple and demonstrable fact that there is within most men an intense resistance to killing their fellow man. A resistance so strong that, in many circumstances, soldiers on the battlefield will die before they can overcome it....

http://www.delanceyplace.com/index.php

[splitimage]

Interesting. Thanks for posting.

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[Open Eyes]

I can believe that Byzantine, as I read that they interviewed American rifleman and they didn't interview the opposing side, or at least didn't mention it. It would have been interesting if the same was true there. And the reason why I wonder that is that it was surprising to the Americans that some the Japanese would participate in suicide missions and they didn't hesitate. And they would fly their planes right into ships and other areas where they felt the most casualties would occur. I have also read that to run or desert or show any other behavior that was considered apprehensive the Japanese would rather take their own lives than face the shame of being deemed weak and incapable.

Even now as we observe today's terrorists use human bombs and are very willing to take their own lives to serve a purpose to destroy whomever they deem necessary, this has been very difficult for our soldiers today. As we would not use our children to be decoys or a source of weaponry, we have come across this in today's enemy and so, our soldiers are exposed to very troubling experiences. I do think that the Japanese did some of this as well.

I have known by observing my father in my youth watching any documentary that showed footage of World War II, especailly fighting the Japanese, I often wondered why he would needed to watch it so much. And I know that even today if he sees that any documentary or actual footage is going to be on, he will choose to watch it.

It wasnt for a long time that I would start to understand why he did that. I would ask him about the war and his part in it and what he saw. He was and still is very eager to talk about his experiences and what he saw and learned. He ran one of the boats that would drop men off on the shores to fight in battle and I know he wonders how many of those young men survived. He was tranferred off a ship that was torpedoed not long after he was transferred and the compartment that he had stayed in was totally destroyed and all the men he knew were killed. I am sure that when he stares off quietly, he is thinking about that. He often said he never expected to live as long as he has, he is 84. He was deployed to occupied Japan and he was amazed at the poor living conditions of the Japanese citizens and what little they had.

I am the only one that talks to him about his experience in that war and his father fought it too, his father fought two World Wars, was a pilot and planes back then were very crude, not like today.

When I hear people talk lightly about how men come home with psychological issues from war, they can never truely realize the amount of impact that truely does have.
I can see it in my father's face and he was such a young man and most of them are and they are not really prepared for what they do see and how it forever changes them. We are desensitized by what we see on television and in the movies but we see it in the comfort of a theater and we know that it is not real and we see men kill men and we are somewhat desensitized by that too. But it is not like that for the soldiers who have been there for real that have to make that choice and pull that trigger that does take the life of another human being. Or to be in a situation where one knows that it is a real danger and a real enemy that is going to kill that soldier, that must be very hard to experience.

Thank you for the thread Byz, it sheds light on the humanity of our soldiers and how very hard it is on them. I often think people have the oppinion that it just comes easy and men are designed to do this, but by reading this, one can learn, it is not that easy a task, War.

Open Eyes

[IceCreamKid]

And yet convenience stores and street corners seem to bring out bloodlust quite quickly.

Thanks Byzantine! This was quite interesting. And Open Eyes, thanks for your insight.

Love and hugs,
Tara

(((Open eyes)))

[Sanada]

Same in most wars Byzantine.
Its why I still have faith.

[Open Eyes]

Thank you Wolfsong and tara,
I like that quote Wolfsong, "Love thou the rose but leave it on it's stem."
and the other quotes too.

But when I think of this one quote about the rose, I think even deeper than that.
Perhaps Love the rose and take time to make sure it has water and room to grow.
Not own it by choosing to pick and claim it but to leave it on its stem for all to share and behold it's beauty. Perhaps if the rose were to be left on the stem longer, it may live longer in it's natural state.

I had a visit with my T today and we talked more about some of my past and what I have had to learn. Your quote about losing an illusion brings more wisdom than finding the truth really touched on my exchange with my therapist.

My therapist and I had gone on a path where we exchanged a more intellectual conversation and there was a common enlightenment within that exchange. He finalized some of this exchange with a view of how truley terrible and unfair life is and there is no real equality and justice. He saw a different side of me and began to question how he could help me in therapy. And as he had stated that opinion, it put me in check.

Once again I was reminded of the quote that Venus puts forth. And this morning I had addressed a question she had very bravely put forward in a thread. So this morning I had read her question and posted and mentioned that quote in my post.
I have mentioned to her before that I do ponder about that quote, I think about it alot actually.

So, in light of my therapy this morning I have to answer my therapist's question the next time I see him. Maybe I should just bring the quote and say, "I need to be better adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

It was strange how he told me that if I was a good horse trainer, I could be a good psychologist too. He grew up around horses and his father was a life long psychiatrist and so my therapist grew up on the grounds where many suffering patients were being treated. So I have to say I am getting the sum of two generations that have lived around what is considered those with psychological challenges.

So in a way I was discussing that very quote this morning about losing an illusion and gaining wisdom but I heard the truth too. And I really was not expecting that to happen, nor was I expecting to come home and check PC for other posts to Venus's thread and see this thread with other thoughts I had expressed and these quotes. Are there no coincidenses?

And then I found Venus's thread and made another comment so her question could be pondered. Because she did have a valid question, she is trying and she has been discouraged. But I want her to keep trying. I want everyone to keep trying. I feel we all deserve it and the Byz keeps reminding me and others, it is up to us to do the work. He is very wise, I see he is trying to do the work, I respect him and others here for that.

I don't mean to get off topic here. But the fact that men do hesitate to draw a weapon to extinguish the life of another, is proof enough to me, THERE IS REASON TO KEEP TRYING.

Open Eyes

[Harnbrand]

I wonder if the same could be said for soldiers today. The newer generation, growing up with the war on terror and playing video games that glorified combat.

[Open Eyes]

Yes, the reaction would be the same for the men today. No video game or movie can speak of the true combat situation. A person playing a game is playing a game and they know it. It is not the same as raising a weapon to actually kill another person in real life.

Your question is of your own desensitizing thru the exposure you have had. But I am sure you would most likely hesitate if you were placed in a real life situation.

Open Eyes

[arcangel]

I'm not so sure of that. I haven't read the book so I don't know if any research into recent conflicts has been done. I'd think it is unlikely that this happened in Iraq and even less likely in Afghanistan.
The soldiers mention in the excerpts were probably conscripts fighting in an entirely different way than battles are fought today.
Soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan are not conscripts. There aren't pitched battles involving lines of men firing at one another in predetermined locations. They usually operate in small battle groups. If a significant percentage or any percentage really, failed to fire their weapon, the nonparticipants would be noticeable and results probably catastrophic.
From the experiences a couple of Iraq/Afghanistan vets I know have shared with me, I don't believe there are any "passive participants" in these wars. If there were, and they were found out, they would face distrust and hostility from their fellow soldiers... at the very least.
It's good to see some idealism though

Thank you so much open eyes.No,darling there are generally no coincidences,However,there is a randomness to some of what occurs around us.But,when the messages are for us...there are no coincidences.The Byz...is indeed wise.(((huggieshh Open Eyes)))

[Open Eyes]

Well arcangel perhaps there is still an internal battle over morals verses the training to prepare men to engage without hesitation. Perhaps more effort is put in training the hesitation out of men in combat. Perhaps as you state each small group that engages in battle is set up psychologically to enact their duties much like one would in a football game where the psychie is focused on the shear dedication to the game.

However I do consider the emotional state these men go through after that so called game, the sense of claiming victory verses that of defeat. But, ofcourse there is no real exposure to losing a team mate as there is in the battleground.

[Sanada]

I Chose Not...