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#1
Aug 13, 2012, 02:10 AM
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I had a bad day, a really bad day (if I had know how bad it would get when I asked for someone to talk to face to face ------I would have never asked for help! becouse my bad day was about to turn into 4 days of really bad hell!
 ). It started the night before with being too sick too be able to take any medications or get any sleep. Then I go to get in my car which worked fine the day before-nothing, but rrrr, I was going to miss a surgical appointment that took months to set up, tried to call for help, the phone would not work. In a great deal of pain, and battling depression I had a fleeting thought that I just refiled the pills.  Instead of acting on that or doing anything else I emailed--yes my computer was the one thing that worked! I emailed my therapist and briefly said what was going on asked if she could call the mental health deputy(MHD) so I could talk to someone real, face to face.  She emailed back -on their way. I explained your trauma situation, and that you DON"T need to go the hospital just talk. 3 cops show up.  One stays-we talk he greatly misunderstands me-radios the MHD-who never shows up but calls the hospital and books a bed and orders a 72 hour hold. The cop tells me I have no choice, I have to go. I ask how this happened,  we talk more-he realizes he misunderstood what I said-completely- radios back to the MHD who says he can not rescind the hold?? True?? Do not get any time to get things together go to hospital w/o reading glasses, other necessary things. There the Doctor says So very sorry doesn't think I need to be there but nothing he can do??????  This is not what I have heard. If you are not a risk to your self or others, a hospital is not the least restrictive alternative then they do not have to keep you. But both the admitting doc and the one I saw the next day used the police hold as there reason for keeping me and I do not take psych meds, I can't, I do worse on them, I have tried all of them. They did not call my therapist although they told me they did,  the second doc said I could leave when and if she called and said it was OK for me to leave. The third day(Saturday-weekends do not count as part of the 72 hours!!) I had a another patient call for me-I'm deaf cannot use the regular phones and they did not have any TTY's or any way for me to communicate- call my therapist after hours she called back and was angry I had been admitted and she was never called.  I had to sign papers I could not read-they changed my pain medications without telling me, my pain is now out of control. Aside from the many ADA violations is it unnecessary restraint when you keep someone who does not need to be kept in a psych hospital? I have Medicaid and Medicare if I was uninsured would the doctors have let me go? No wonder my state is number 50 in mental health care. There is never any beds for those that need them-I did not need it and I was kept there.Filling a bed that was needed by someone else. There's only two small hospitals in my very large city one of the larger cities in America! What a waste. I'm thinking of writing to the paper!Q # 1 The doctors go to school for years do they not have the last word in whether or not someone is kept or released? Not an untrained police officer? Q # 2 Was I kept illegally sense they lied about contacting my therapist. They said they called her and left a message but until she heard from me via the patent who called her for me, she did not know I was there and had not heard from the hospital. According to my papers of patient bill of rights anyone who knowing restrains someone in a hospital who does not need to be there is guilty of a crime that is punishable by both fine and time. I was released today before my 72 hours were up after my therapist called! Q #3 If anything had happened to my cat would they have been liable since they told me they called my friend for me and told her where I was and that I would be there until Mon(tomorrow) but when I got home early(Sun morn) my cat had no food or water? Given the record of them and my friend I will believe my friend over them when she say's she did not get a call. Because they changed my pain medications which are administered by a specialist in pain medicine my pain is now out of control.  Because I was there I missed other appointments, the one thing I have learned from this is to never talk to a police officer or a MHD and if I did need to go into a hospital because of mental health, I think my choice will be something else, after the treatment I received there and saw others receiving--maybe the right words should be not receiving -other than medication there was no treatment. The only time the were concerned and asked me anything is when I didn't eat. I don't eat meat, white bread or really refined food and don't drink milk-so some meals had nothing for me. I only saw the doctor twice the first time he was in a big hurry, the second time was to discharce me. Maybe if I was hearing I would have been able to get a vegi tray?  Oh--my after care? None. They were very impressed with the safty plan I wrote! 
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Nammu …Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. …... Desiderata Max Ehrmann Last edited by Nammu; Aug 13, 2012 at 02:17 AM. Reason: clarity |
 Bark, CastlesInTheAir, KathyM, kindachaotic, Ones44, pegasus, Rose76, wing
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#2
Aug 13, 2012, 07:11 PM
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to answer your questions.... Quote:
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if you were here where I live and work, if there really was a danger of your cat starving to death over a 72 hour hold animal control would have been called and given the contact information for your friend, then animal control would have picked up the cat for free, held them in their shelter, fed, cuddled, petted, socialized the cat until either your release or they got a hold of your friend.. cats and dogs are pretty resilient they can go quite a while on little to no food and water depending upon the circumstances. plus even if they did call your friend with a cat theres no guarantee there would have been food and water in the cats dishes, cats are amazing animals sometimes they eat everything the second you give them their food and water and sometimes they graze on and off. some days my cats will have their dishes empty the moment I put it down for them and other days I come home from work and they hardly touched their food. your after care well if its like here where I live and work they knew you had a therapist so they already knew you would be receiving mental health after care. the safety plan would be just an added bonus to show you knew how to keep yourself safe between release and seeing your therapist. |
 Nammu
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#3
Aug 14, 2012, 03:35 AM
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Thank you so much for that. Clarifies a lot. I haven't been in a place to do research. The law probably is that way, here. Its pretty scary that they have that kind of power. Especially after the officer realized he really did mishear me and wasn't paying attention. The longer we talked the more humane he became turned out I know where he's from, we grew up in the same state so he started paying more attention as time went on. When he realized he had misheard things at first he did call the MHD back but he said it was too late. I suppose the MHD thought I was some kind of evil manic that wove a spell on his officer? The patient rights hand out has a section about the illegality of keeping people in hospitals needlessly, doesn't seem to apply to 72 hour holds. In the past people were often needlessly hospitalized by using the law. Scary law, call up the police tell them your __whoever you are mad at______said they were going to kill themselves. Set it up to push their buttons so when the police arrive...My husband tried that, but back then I lived in MN, they don't do that. Doctors have the power. At least they did then.
I realize now the officer wasn't listening in the beginning, he was humoring me as you put it while we were supposed to be waiting for the MPD to show up. They are not something I plan to have in my tool box any more. It is pretty insulting to be "humored" and seen as some unbalanced violent lunatic that needs to be lied to so they can "wait" me out and watch me revile the dangerous manic in me. What they got instead is an other investigation into there lack of compliance with ADA laws and a really angry ball of pain and revenge,  you really do not want to mess with me if you cause me to have more nerve pain that I have already have to deal with on a day to day basis. After last investigation when they had to invest in training but they apparently didn't learn much they stuck a logo thing on their web sight that they have ASL available on the unit. Only if they have groups during the graveyard shift, that was the only tech I met who signed. I've always worked graveyards and get long better with those who work that shift, it must be a vampire gene or something.I've been talking to the Disability Rights people, they don't make decisions until Thursday. But they keep asking for more info. I'm more upset about being kept needlessly and they have been focused on the ADA violations. So it is great to understand better why it is as it is. I'm more sad now, it's like, OK honesty is out the window, if any one ever sends them my way; I'll smile and deny, admit nothing. Reminds me of the 60's never trust a cop. Theres a huge difference between a thought and a thought that you plan to take action on. I thought I was being preemptive, talk to someone face to face, maybe get some community support connections that could help with transport. Can't call anyone without a phone, turned out the line was disconnected at the wall, undoubtedly the work of my "evil" cat!  The reason I was worried about my cat is that I found out they would have kept me until Tues because weekends don't count. Thank you so much AmandaLouise, 
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Nammu …Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. …... Desiderata Max Ehrmann |
| KathyM
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| amandalouise
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#4
Aug 14, 2012, 04:26 AM
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Wow, that is crazy! I wish I could hug you right now and slap someone for you, that is freaking ridiculous! I wish we all lived near each other so we could sponser each other like in AA and call each other when something like this happens....!!!
__________________
Invictus it matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll. I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul. William Ernest Henley |
| Nammu, Rose76
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#5
Aug 14, 2012, 04:42 AM
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Thank you so much Triciadrich. You slap them and I'll roll over them.
__________________
Nammu …Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. …... Desiderata Max Ehrmann |
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#6
Aug 23, 2012, 12:54 PM
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Wow. Sorry you went through all that. At first, I seriously was inferring that you were a resident of some country other than the USA because of how unusual the whole sequence of events sounded. However, I see that is not the case. Maybe there is way more variation of how things are handled from one state to another than I realized. That's a good thing for me to be aware of, if I am ever visiting another state and get into some mental turmoil. I thought this stuff was more standardized.
Then again . . . maybe the law is more standardized (like with regard to "least restrictive" placement) but people's interpretations can vary all over the map. I kind of doubt these people who handled your situation were totally in harmony with whatever the law is where you are. Over the years, I've noticed that providers and the system in general can worry more about any possible liability to themselves than about the real risk of your situation. I base that on having worked as part of "the system." (as a nurse) There is liability for inappropriately restraining someone. However, there is way worse liability for failing to hold someone who then gets seriously harmed due to an impaired state of mind. In response to your questions: #1) My understanding is that only an MD (or possibly a nurse practitioner in some remote areas) can "put" anyone on "a hold." All the police can do is bring you to a psych facility and turn you over as someone they believe should be assessed. Once they leave the facility where they have brought you, they have no say over anything. That's how it is in my state. In re-reading your post just now, it looks like it was the MHD who phoned and booked the bed. That completely astonishes me. I've never lived in an area where there are MHDs. I never even heard of them. Sounds like they have quite a bit of authority where you live. I'm wondering if an MHD is part of the police department. I have heard of the police departments having specially trained cops who intervene in situations of psych difficulty. Once I was in the middle of a situation where a psychiatrist ordered a hold on a child before that child had even been assessed by anyone. The pdoc did it over the phone. I advised the mother to leave the child in the facility for that night, but to call a lawyer first thing in the morning. The child was released the next morning. #2) Strictly speaking, I don't think they legally have to contact your therapist about anything. As far as them unlawfully holding you. I think they could get out of that easy enough, especially since they released you in less than 3 days. If brought to court, the admitting doc would say that they seriously "feared" for your safety based on yada, yada. The courts give doctors rather wide lee-way to make a decision like that, in the short term. There are good reasons for the courts to let doctors have that much discretion. It's only if the pdocs want to keep you beyond a week that they really have to have all the ducks in a row meticulously. If you object (in my state) it does go to a hearing before a judge at the end of a week, and it is very hard to keep someone against their will. #3) They would have a responsibility to alert someone of the need for an animal to be cared for, if you told them that your cat needed care, while you were away. What amanda says above about animal control being able to step in is what I'm sure is the case in my state, too. If your friend says they never called, I'ld be inclined to totally believe her. Having worked in these places, that is just the kind of ball that gets dropped all the time. To the extent that they thought about it at all, they probably figured the cat would survive a few days with no care and just didn't worry about calling your friend. Here is another thing to consider when trying to figure who is lying to whom. Sometimes the person who tells you that something was really done is going by what that person was told by someone else. |
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#7
Aug 24, 2012, 04:31 PM
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Hi Rose
It does seem that the Mental Health Deputy( MHD ) went over his head by ordering the hold but not seeing me in person and not doing his own asseccment. I finally got to see my T yesterday and found out she had called the police mediator to find out if she could report his behavior. She was told to do so and to have me do so too if I would be willing. He does have the authority to order holds but he is suposed to go in person and assess the situation himself not send untrained cops. Becaouse the doctors messed with my pain medication I'm went though withdrawals am now going though some other stuff, just saw my pain doc today, and need to see her again next Friday. More good news from all this is that disability rights has taken my case an is looking into the hospitals violations and actions. I just don't know how much good it will do.
__________________
Nammu …Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. …... Desiderata Max Ehrmann |
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#8
Aug 24, 2012, 07:15 PM
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My goodness, what a nightmare!!
I'm not sure if I can answer any of your questions, but from my own experience here in CO, if you appear to be a danger to yourself, they (whoever they may be) have to take you to an ER, where a mental health doctor does an assessment and then decides if you should be admitted to a psych hospital or sent home. That doctor is the only one who can put an M1 hold on you. Again, that is my own experience (of which I've had many), I do not know exactly what the law is. I've once had a similar experience, twice actually. The first time, I had taken Ativan for the first time, and I had some weird reaction to it. I don't remember much, but apparently I called my therapist, and she got worried and called 911. I remember the ambulance people being there, I was in a pretty good mood, not suicidal or anything, but they said since I had (old) cuts on my arm they were taking me to the hospital. I was just like "okee dokee". Somehow I ended up at a psych hospital. I woke up the next morning perfectly fine, they kept me that day just to make sure I was really fine, and then sent me home. The other time was way worse. It's complicated, so I'll try to make it short. I was suicidal and took myself to the ER. My kids were safely taken care of for three days. But I didn't know what to do with them after the three days, in case I was still in the hospital. I was so stressed about this the entire three days I was there, I couldn't really focus on my issues and getting better. So after the 72 hours were up, they said "Oh, you're not making enough progress" and they sent me to the State Hospital!!! That was a nightmare worthy of some PTSD. The doctor there had no clue what I was doing there either. He talked to me for a good two hours, and then simply said "Well, either they sent me a perfecly sane person and are going HA-HA now, or you are really good". Unfortunately, it was late that day, he was off the next day, and then was the weekend, so I ended up having to stay for almost a full week. The other patients thought I was a staff member, and the nurses clearly enjoyed talking to me. I don't know what some people are thinking when they stick you in the hospital. It's like really taking the effort to talk to you to find out what's really going on is just too much. It's easier to just go ahead and lock you up, and make you somebody else's problem. (I'm using a general "you" here.) I'm so sorry you had to go through that. And I'm sorry for my rambling here.  Your story just really hit a nerve.I hope you can get some answers, and I hope you can leave all this behind you. 
__________________
As she draws her final breath Just beyond the door he'll find her Taking her hand he softly says For the first time you can open your eyes And see the world without your sorrow Where no one knows the pain you left behind And all the peace you could never find Is waiting there to hold and keep you Welcome to the first day of your life Just open up your eyes as I lay you down tonight Safe on the other side No more tears to cry |
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#9
Aug 26, 2012, 07:21 PM
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((((Whenwillitend))))
I agree, many people have the mindset that seems to be if they stick it(a person {shudder}with MI) in the hospital it will somehow get better on it's own. Certainly not from anything they do. The psych techs were the most humane and compassionate workers there in my experience and they need only a H.S or GED education and it is preferred to have experience with MI units it is not required. The only time any one above them was worried about me is when I was too unset to eat. Normally I gave my food away anyway but that night I was just too upset to play the game we all played, we did not even hide it we gave our food away openly. So when they came around to "see" what we had eaten it looked as if I and everyone else had eaten every thing, but normally I had the fruit, vegetable's, and tea, everything else on my plate went to others. I needed a Dr's order to get an veggie tray. I didn't know that the first time I saw the doc the second time I saw him he was discharging me. So the day I didn't feel up to the game, the tech tried to give me my tray, then a nurse came, then a charge nurse came, I said it would be nice if you would take my pain this seriously. I have a cyst in my spine, my spine is unstable, in two areas I have pressure against the nerves that cause numbness and pain in my lower arms and my left buttocks and leg that that gets worse when I have no good place to lie down such as what they called a bed, a piece of cardboard wrapped with plastic. The admittance Dr ordered an eggshell crate thing for my bed and nobody knew how to do this and nobody cared enough to try looking for other ways of making my bed comfortably enough for me to sleep in with out horrible neck and hip pain? What a strange place because my pain was not visible(neither is MI) it must not be real, they told me they had no proof I really had spinal pain, I told them Thursday they could cal the MRI place and my pain doctor on Fri, I signed releases for both places, all they did was call to cancel my Dr appointment not ask if my pain was real or of they could change my medicines! Had they taken me seriously and worked with me, tried to help ease my pain and left my pain medicine given to me by a specialist in pain medicine alone.Things might have been very different. I might have voluntarily stayed and gotten things I needed, such as a case worker, someone to help with cleaning at home, getting things like food up stairs or finding a safe place on ground floor or even-- a pdoc, I've been trying for over 6 months to get one on my Medicare advantage plan. I get 4 or 5 names of docs that are supposed to work with PTSD and my insurance but when I call, oh I'm so sorry, I do not accept your insurance, or I only work in nursing homes? Being in a hospital is suposed to make the process faster? It should be fast and no difference but where I life the is there is one pdoc for 1500 people so trying to find one that does not over medicate is difficulty. As you said they think there is some magic that happens if the throw people into a hospital. It takes much more than locking a person up away from there support system and sometimes alienating that support system to help people. Hospitals can be good places why recovery does take place. But it take good caring staff. who's first job is to the clients after all without the client they would not have a job. I'd say the first step would be a lot less paper work. When a person knows there dx write it down with a r/o if you must and treat them by that dx until proved otherwise, 2 the client is not your enemy. 3 staff learns to communicate and DE-escalate situations by listening to clients and hearing them, wait with the ganging up until you have no other choice. I saw many times when other patients stepped up and calmed the situation by repeating what was said until everyone understood what the client wanted-new sheets, or the lights were too bright, and all the big staff standing there ready for a throw down had to go a way disappointed. The staff should have been able to do that without the clients having to step in and do there job. 4.I want the statistics that say we can not bring our own pillows and blankets-I don't believe it is an infection control issue. If it can be washed in the machine, it's not a problem. I want the study that proves this, absolutely. I not heard of a single outbreak anywhere. We are talking trauma patients and pain patient's being denied pain care, comfort for a made up study or no study at all. 5.All forms of communication must be provided, 24/7. Terps are needed not just during groups but also, to socialize with and make phone calls, to be able to hear what medicines I'm given, same with any foreign language person. They need more communication than just group time. When somebody asks for a list of their medications they need to be given that list, not told it is to long or the nurse is to busy. Anybody who's managed to read this far and has ideas for more just add them. When I talked to my T last week and told her about the things I wished I could have stayed and worked on, she asked if I wanted to try the partial hospital program. It sounded good last Wed. But now... putting myself in their hands. I'm scared. They are picking me up tomorrow at 7:30am. I'm scared. It feels like they have all the control and I have none. I don't know if I can go though with it, I'm still struggling with the side effects of my pain med's. If I have to go though a locked door, I'm not sure I can handle it. wish I could talk to my T if that happens. Thats giving them too much power, the power to lock me up again, after all thoughts lies. Why can't the parcele hospital not be locked? I don't trust them with that much power. I have enough to get a cab fair home.  I don't think they understand trauma
__________________
Nammu …Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. …... Desiderata Max Ehrmann |
| KathyM, kindachaotic
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#10
Aug 26, 2012, 11:35 PM
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For the part not in bold: for all intensive purposes, your therapist was deemed irrelevant to the psychiatrist's evaluation of whether you should be involuntarily admitted. As for her not being called, it's unfortunate but there's nothing you can do about that. Quote:
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Doctors are very busy in hospitals as there usually are only a few of them, a bunch of nurses, possibly some assistants and all the patients. The doctors have to routinely evaluate patients, review with nurses, contact other doctors, review your files (takes longer if another doctor or therapist sends it over) and document everything, all while being called to go elsewhere. It's constant multi-tasking and is very difficult. Personally, I like it when doctors stay with each patient long enough to explain the decision, how they reached it and briefly address any concerns. Quote:
In the hospital where I'm at, I don't, "gang up" with any fellow staff, unless it's clear as day there is a problem that isn't de-escalating. Sometimes patients are aggressive that they are admitted and will try to go as far as attacking. The way I prefer to work is when one nurse is tending to a particular issue, I'll grab the sheets, dim the lights or whatever else, so as to not drag it out longer than it has to be. Afterward, I ask if there's anything else and if not, then I move on to someone else. Quote:
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| Nammu
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#11
Aug 27, 2012, 06:31 AM
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((Oxidopamine)) I just have one comment on any behavior I was "displaying" the admitting Dr and nurse both apologized about the mix up that got me brought into that place. I was not crying, out of order, blunt, or overreacting, or angry all though I had good reason to be so, I know in that situation it would be "read" differently. My T has already filed a compliant against the officer who twisted my words and the MHD who put me on hold without seeing me himself. The proper procedure is for the MHD himself to evaluate or take me to the doctor and let them eval, or to PES and let them evaluate me. The doctor said there was nothing he could do, it was out of his hands as the hold had been signed without my having been seen by a trained evaluator and it was not my behavior, I was in my chair the entire time, I talked to the officer explained what an panic attack was and how I dealt with it, emailing my T and talking to those on PC and that I was much better. I had taken no medications as I don't like the side effects. We then talked about the state we were both from. After it was too late that officer admited to me he mishead me, my voice is low and he was expecting me to be suicidal so thats what he heard. The MHD would not let him reverse what he said.
As for not notifying me about the medicine changes here in USA it is the law. But I am deaf and they did not write it down for me, nor did they use the interpreter when she was there to tell me of those changes. This is a violation of the ADA law.
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Nammu …Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. …... Desiderata Max Ehrmann |
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#12
Aug 27, 2012, 07:26 AM
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I get the impression they held you because of your hearing impairment. The officer wasn't convinced that you were all right. Personally, I think this is an inane excuse, but I can see why it would be enough to justify a 72 hour hold. All someone had to do was take the time to communicate with you to confirm that you were not suicidal. Many healthcare professionals, even police officers, don’t know how to communicate very well with people who are deaf. I have seen it.
Sometimes, doctors get blinded by past history and the opinions of colleagues, including police officers. No matter what the patient says they are ignored. Any condition that hinders communication tends to worsen this. Here in Ontario, police can detain and escort you to hospital, but they cannot admit you. A psychiatrist is the one responsible for that. Officers are not trained. |
| Nammu
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#13
Aug 27, 2012, 02:13 PM
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It all sounds like one colossal screw up with officers not properly communicating and the MHD not doing their job. I'm glad though the doctor at least tried to reverse it because it means he sifted through all the nonsense and saw the truth. Quote:
At the hospital where I am, the nurse or doctor always prints out or writes the list as well as verbally explains the changes and what each medication is for. Some patients have very poor hearing and may not have their hearing aids with them, so the nurse or doctor either has to speak very loud (which can disturb other patients), write down the explanations or tell them to a bedside family member. I think a few nurses know some sign language, not sure if they're fluent in it but it's often better to get one of those nurses over. |
| Nammu
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#14
Aug 28, 2012, 03:50 AM
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With all you've been thru lately & for a lifetime, can understand your fear of mental health system. Was wondering if you decided to try partial hosp program & what you thought of it. I don't think I could have gone thru locked doors either. Take care & post if you feel up to it.
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This is an old thread. You probably should not post your reply to it, as the original poster is unlikely to see it.|
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