Using other conditions to explain MI

Some people liken psychiatric illness such as depression to diabetes, noting that it is a biochemical problem for which one must take medication. It doesn't go away, but it can be managed. I have used that analogy, since I have both conditions, but recently I've come to believe that epilepsy may be a better comparison. Diabetes is a different malfunctioning organ, but depression and epilepsy have the brain in common. Just now, on a Christian website, I told off a person who insists that "all ongoing depression is rooted in sin," and as he worded it, "I agree when we have a medical problem seek a doctor, but so called mental problems are caused by spiritual issues so seek a spiritual cure and that is just plain common sense."

If this had been a real-life confrontation, I'm afraid he may be digging my shoe out of his....(ahem).

First I told him that mental illness is medical too, since it involves the physical brain. I hope he doesn't go around telling epileptics not to take their medication, but just pray and decide they're not going to have a seizure. Then, since I happen to be a moderator on that web site, I reminded everyone of the rule we have there against giving medical advice, or suggesting that someone should disregard what their doctor says.

Another analogy I've heard used is not actually a condition, but the prevention of one. A nurse observed that it doesn't make any sense to ask a fertile, sexually active woman who doesn't want to get pregnant, "Why are you still taking those birth control pills? You haven't gotten pregnant in a long time now." The obvious answer is, she isn't getting pregnant exactly *because* she is taking those birth control pills.

Do you ever explain MI in light of other medical conditions?

I don't know that I believe mental illness needs any "help" from other medical conditions. One cannot see or feel high blood pressure and most people with the condition do not get it checked or treated. Many people with handicapped parking stickers more or less jump out of their cars and walk into/through whatever store or location/event where they are.

It does not bother me that others have bipolar, depression, anxiety, or whatever medical conditions as compared to my own, and it does not bother me that there are a lot of ignorant idiots out there; it is not my job to set the ignorant idiots straight (although I must confess I do try to a bit too often :-)

May I chime in?

I find the diabetus comparision somehow ignorant... and lessing what we go through. The medical models seems to be shrinking to "take your meds and STFU".

I think spiritual aspects are important in MH and until you solve them you will be popping this pill and that pill and wonder how many pills yet you have to try before you find one or a combo that works (there is no one solution... but you gotta find peace of mind, place in the world and take care of your soul).

Medical shmedical, we been heard "definite proof of what it's caused by... any decades now". It pains me when I see people kinda waiting for that magic cure. They will spend decades... in vain.

quite simple... no. The time I lay awake with thoughts so absurd and surreal, when I doubt sense of living on global scale, depths of existentialism... the time reality doesn't make sense and is distorted... the debts of existentialism... it's not as simple as "just like diabetus". It's unique condition. And unlike other medical conditions found in other species... I really doubt other animals go through this. It's humane condition, this ****.

No. Just because something is medical doesn't mean it is purely physical. Also, there are 2 main types of diabetes, one which is physical damage requiring chemical assistance, and one which can often be healed by lifestyle changes, so it's not the best example of something purely physical, either. I'm quite sure depression is not only in the brain, or even primarily in the brain. The "chemical imbalance" model is an explanation of why the medication might work, but in my understanding it is not a scientific model nor an objective one. Medication is not the only solution, and people do not HAVE to take it. It is a choice, very helpful to many apparently, but what you have had is not accurate or precise.

Sin might be a silly idea, especially in relation to mental illness, but don't expect some guy on a Christian website to respond well to direct attack on his assumptions. Telling someone off is not a constructive form of interaction; it's you losing control. If you're a moderator over there, you have some power - you exercise it fairly and move on, ideally, it seems to me. The idea that mental illness is medical and physical and needs medication is unsupportable, unless you admit shades of nuance completely lacking in what you have said. To say, as you did, that for example depression "doesn't go away but can be managed" is astounding to me. Of course it can go away.

Discussing hot topics requires a reasoned and fair minded tone, including giving the other guy the benefit of the doubt. For example, VH used the word "ignorant," which some people would find inflammatory, but keep in mind she has said English is an additional language she knows, not her first language.

Scientific research like PET Scans and genetic analysis have proved that there's definitely a scientific basis for some if not all mental disorders (OCD, schizophrenia, etc.). I was just reading the effect of lithium and the size of certain parts of the brain. Manic-depressive people have smaller mass in 2-3 areas of the brain (that are associated with mood) than average people do. And some studies show that lithium treatment can help to increase the mass in those areas. The Religious angle is a mute point (as are other Religious perspectives, imo). It's not worth it to hold a debate about mental illness or other things with some groups of people.

eh, I used it deliberatelly... since person before me did. Don't blame my English as second language on my lack of political correctness, please

Because I really find the "just like diabetus" comparissions bad, unhelpful and lessening of our problems and part of reasons why people "don't get it". As much as I met anti-med people, I came across "there's pills for that" attitude. It's been shown that pushing the medical model increased the MI stigma... so... yeah, I don't get why people promote it, if it's apparently not helpful, there's no evidence to it... and it's pretty much supporting the us and them distinction... or the idea we really are somewhat sketch (cause we can't control ourselves and yadda yadda).

Well, the difference is that Perna referred to random ignorant idiots, but you said the OP's argument was ignorant. I think that is a likely inflammatory use of the word, and moreso since the immediately previous use of the word was attached to the word "idiots." Seems you don't agree, and we don't have to agree. Whether it's ESL or any other reason for insensitivity to connotation/implication was not my main point.

well, that argument is really my pet peeve, heh.

I totally see though how my interpretation of things can make people go O.o. But I am not the only one in the world of MH who thinks along these lines... so maybe the person who said it's spiritual... they struggled with something in their life too.

If the medical model helps you... then great. But I mean help to live... not help not to have a life and just feel better about it. I see too many people being held back by "I am ill" thinking.

I've heard people say things like "depression is as deadly as cancer" though. Personally I don't find comparisons quite useful... but I've had people telling me that I do not need medication and I just need to "let everything out."

It's sad how people want their space and people like me do not have space because we're expected to "let everything out."

Well, not quite. Other animals do develop psychological problems (especially when they are around humans ). Those are real, which is pretty easy to believe if you have pets for any length of time.

eh, my cats are somewhat neurotic... but I doubt they do full on depressed.

I suspect many (other) animals would develop deep depression if defeated time after time after time in some important life need. Or threatened with imminent destruction.

i seen a traumatized cat... he recovered quite well though and is pretty chill now. i kinda envy him.

Animals live in the moment, Yes they can abused and carry some baggage but certainly not on the level human beings can.

I'm really not interested in debating whether or not depression is "sin" or "medical." The fact is, there is something wrong with my physical brain, and that makes it medical.

so it's either medical or character flaw?

see, this is a logic I do not like. It doesn't have to be medical to be serious. We all have flaws... but no, depression is not any of them. Doesn't mean it has to be broken brain.

But in my case it IS a broken brain.

OK, so let's take another medical illness: Lung cancer. Just because it's proven that cigarette smoking is a contributing cause, when someone has it, we don't react like, "Well, lung cancer is not a medical illness because you brought it on yourself by smoking."

Venus, I read this AFTER I just got done blasting you, and now I retract the tone of my previous post. I'm sorry. I think this topic is a Berserk Button for both of us.

Yes, you're very right that people fall back on "I can't help it; I'm handicapped" as an excuse not to try to improve their lives. And that makes me just as sick as "there's nothing wrong with you; just choose to be happy" does.

I AM NOT SAYING IT'S CHARACTER FLAW. It's not. Just because there are spiritual aspects to it, doesn!t mean it's character flaw. That's your perspective. And apparently, meds don't take care of bad self-image as you are not the only one who is hung up on "I am either broken medically or just broken". I can't help myself, but it's kinda self-demeaning.

I am saying it's more complex than it's medical. Nowhere I said "don't listen to you doctor", athough I doubt you gotten tangible proof that something is wrong with your brain.

I am not saying "trust me" either, eh.

both are wrong. I never said figuring out the spiritual is easy (I guess reason i am so hung up on spiritual is because of many deaths in my family... one has to find sense in that).

I am not for "happy" anyways. Rather "at peace". Happy is illusion and not achievable for everybody all the time. At peace... again, not easy... but working on inner angst is doable by everybody.

Medicine can go only so far in matters of soul. That is my point.

As it turns out, I had to close that thread. In spite of my posted Mod Hat advising about the rules against giving medical advice on that forum, his very next post was to give medical advice and say (both to me specifically and to others in general) that all psychiatry is fraud, and believing the Bible is the only "cure." In fact, he said, if we simply "obey God," then "what is termed as mental illness won't happen." It's not the first time a moderator has said something about it to him (I can't say more because of confidentiality) so he's just disregarding the stated rules. I've officially recused myself from further action against him, as I obviously can't be objective about it. But rules are rules, and he is violating them. I need to let the system and my fellow moderators take it from there.

I think we're reaching an understanding, and can reach it faster if we don't polarize as I for one am certainly guilty of doing here.

One side of the argument is NOT saying, "Because it's a medical issue, there is nothing behaviorally that the sufferer can do to help him/herself. Pills are the only answer." But the other side of the argument is reacting as if that were said. Similarly, the other side of the argument is NOT saying, "There is never a medical factor. Mental illness is always a spiritual and behavioral issue, nothing more." (Well, that other guy is saying that, but nobody here.) But the first side of the argument (me) is reacting as if that were said.

Edited to add, because it's been asked whether I have definitive proof of my brain being at fault.

I've never had my brain scanned to see if it really is deficient in some chemical. However if I don't take my medication, therapy is of no help to me, because my brain will be too dull to grasp the concepts therapy would present to me. I won't have good reflexes, because even in a crisis I would have to stop and consciously decide what to do next. Situations will take a while to "register" in my head. I will think slowly, causing me to move slowly, while most people around me are scratching their heads thinking, "What's taking you so long?" This has applied even where there is a fire ("Why are you just standing there? Move!") or a car door suddenly comes open on the highway. ("Well, close it!") I have been slapped and called stupid because on occasion I will have trouble understanding spoken instructions. I can repeat back what is said to me, but I cannot connect one word logically to the next, and make sense of the meaning. None of this has anything to do with intelligence, but it can look that way sometimes, which is why so many people have said to me, "If you're so smart, how come you can't figure out...?"

The fact that my medication helps me with this, I take as evidence that my physical brain is involved. Therefore it is upsetting to me to have someone suggest it's all something I could consciously control, if I could only figure out how.

I admit, I do have problem with statements as:


I see medication as choice... not a must. Seeing is as a must can do lot of harm to those who react badly to it or for whatever reason do not want to rely on it.

On the other side... I am relieving myself with various things too I just try to know the limits of my brews and remedies.

^^Ah. Well, the way I see it, "medication" doesn't have to mean "chemicals produced in a lab." Herbal remedies and supplements also come under the heading of "medication" in my way of thinking. And yes, I think they work.

Let me note too, I think people have different images in their heads when they hear the words, "chronic depression." To me, it means the slow brain activity I described above, and has nothing to do with happy or sad. Others may take "chronic depression" to mean that the person is always sad and gloomy--perhaps because they fail to see the joy in life? That's why the "cheer up, things aren't that bad" or "don't let it get you down" speeches automatically follow any mention of chronic depression. Which is a pet peeve of mine.