[pachyderm]

Dr. Thomas Insel, head of the National Institute of Mental Health, has changed the focus of the agency to biological and genetic approaches to mental illness. E. Fuller Torrey approves:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/04/sc...w&rref=science

[pachyderm]

It occurs to me that many people who concentrate on brain mechanics may do so because they do not want to think about, to remember, their own fears as children. Wonder how often this is the explanation... would it apply to Thomas Insel? What was his childhood like?

[Webgoji]

Wait ... NIMH?

As in ...

They're trying to create super intelligent rats! Run!

[Hellion]

Just a thought, but what if depression does not look the same in everyones brain? I mean I just hope we don't end up with people who have symptoms unable to get a diagnoses or needed help because their brain does not match up to a specific mold of what the brains of people with that mental disorder is supposed to look like.

So I think it is still important to focus on symptoms as well as the biological aspect...nothing wrong with researching what goes on in the brain to cause the symptoms...but then there is the fact that everyones brain is different and so maybe different physical causes in the brain can create the same disorder. I suppose more research in that area might prove just that. Also they should focus on biological, genetic and social/environmental factors.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

It occurs to me that many people who concentrate on brain mechanics may do so because they do not want to think about, to remember, their own fears as children. Wonder how often this is the explanation... would it apply to Thomas Insel? What was his childhood like?

I noticed in some people with traumatic background.... that they were all over the chemical imbalance/broken brain theory, to point of being agressive about it. Everything is about serotonine and dopamine, and balancing imbalances and that is all there is.

I always thought that it's sign they are broken, but not in the way their brain is broken... but that their spirit is broken, they internalized the sick abusive things they been told to the very core. Claiming "Yes, I am defective, I really am" and being even defensive about it....

I thought it's kinda sad.

(other thing I notice that people have this weird dichotomy of being either bad person or being ill (associated with " it's not my fault!") with nothing in between.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I noticed in some people with traumatic background.... that they were all over the chemical imbalance/broken brain theory, to point of being agressive about it. Everything is about serotonine and dopamine, and balancing imbalances and that is all there is.

I always thought that it's sign they are broken, but not in the way their brain is broken... but that their spirit is broken, they internalized the sick abusive things they been told to the very core. Claiming "Yes, I am defective, I really am" and being even defensive about it....

I thought it's kinda sad.

(other thing I notice that people have this weird dichotomy of being either bad person or being ill (associated with " it's not my fault!") with nothing in between.

So....are you suggesting people with mental disorders have nothing wrong going on in their brain? Or that something like a traumatic background can't cause negative changes in the brain? Its an intresting theory....but many studies seem to indicate there are chemical/biological changes that can happen and cause symptoms.

[venusss]

Do the changes cause symptoms or does the state of mind cause the changes?

It's been shown on brain scans doing meditation changes the brain. That brains of lefties and righties are different. You could say everything is matter of brain changes.

Or you could say the changes notable on brain scans or the chemistry itself doesn't really matter.

And no, despite the fact I have wildly troubled, there is nothing wrong with MY brain. At least I don't like to think of that this way. All I know for sure that if I am in objectivelly better place, I still get ups and down, but I ride them out much better. So it cannot be only about chemicals and changes in the brain. My brain couldn't all of sudden changed with me moving to Prague, could it?

my point was though that some people adopt the broken brain theory to self-defeating matter (and does it really matter if trauma changed your brain or not? How will that help you out... there are means of getting over trauma that don't involved top notch neuroscience. People lived and survived traumas throughout the history. There were no brain scans and fancy meds, or even fancy therapists during thirty year's war... or during other troubled long gone time.... yet many gotten through, lived on, created great things... ). I think the hyper focus on biology only makes it worse. We got so obssesed about scanning brains that we forget our souls. And maybe that is the problem. Maybe that is why the stats say 25% of Americans (not sure about stats for rest of the world) have some mental health issues.

[Hellion]

Alright well I guess I to me it makes sense I have some problems going on in the brain. I'd agree its not only about chemicals and brain changes there is probably much more than that. However especially when it comes to my having developed PTSD symptoms my functioning got noticably worse....as in my brain did not work the same, at least that is how it feels and it seems I am not too far off based on studies of changes in the brain that take place if you develop PTSD.

I guess to me it matters because I had more cognitive ability before the PTSD...as for my depression and anxiety, that's been around since I was a child I think it could be related to environmental/social factors....due to being treated badly for being 'weird' due to being on the autism spectrum which causes defects of its own...I suppose there are some useful traits that exist within it, but there's some really debilitating aspects.

Yes, the revolution in pharmacology (in which he played a role) gave doctors more drugs to use, allowing millions of people to reduce their symptoms. Yet the overall impact of this drug revolution on public health has been mixed, and decades of research on the drugs’ mechanisms — on serotonin, for example, the target of antidepressant drugs like Prozac — has taught scientists nothing about the causes of mental illness.

The same is true of most research using “animal models,” in which scientists try to create psychiatric problems in animals and study them.

“We’ve had this huge increase in the use of all interventions, a 250 percent increase in use of antipsychotics, without any change in the morbidity or mortality in people with mental disorders; it hasn’t budged,” Dr. Insel said. “If that were the case for cancer, there’d be an outcry for more research, money and new priorities.”

Thank goodness! Many people have said this. Finally somebody at a place like nihm!

Just a thought, but what if depression does not look the same in everyones brain? I mean I just hope we don't end up with people who have symptoms unable to get a diagnoses or needed help because their brain does not match up to a specific mold of what the brains of people with that mental disorder is supposed to look like.

So I think it is still important to focus on symptoms as well as the biological aspect...nothing wrong with researching what goes on in the brain to cause the symptoms...but then there is the fact that everyones brain is different and so maybe different physical causes in the brain can create the same disorder. I suppose more research in that area might prove just that. Also they should focus on biological, genetic and social/environmental factors.

Hellion...
Absolutely I think there are different causes and the brain is so dependent on both nature and nurture to develop. Let's not forget epigenetics either.

My pa would like me to take a genetic related test. She is supposed to send me info so I can learn more about. I can't afford it right now but it sounds like something that would be really helpful. The test helps identify possible reasons for your disorder. It can identify which medications are more likely to help. It will also tell you if you have nutritional deficiencies. (I wonder if it will say anything about my concussion which I know plays a part.) The more she learns about it and has her clients use it the more impressed she is. One patient was recommended SAM-E as a treatment and this person is doing great. So there is gene and chemicals working together. And nutrition.

It's been shown on brain scans doing meditation changes the brain.

Venus...
I have seen this in action although I prefer the word 'mindfulness'. I tried Neurofeedback which uses eeg's. It requires you to concentrate on a screen but mindfully because you actually try to control what's going on. For about a year before that I did mindfulness drawing on a nearly daily basis. I could absolutely feel the increased focus and calm over time. In fact I was able to take myself off an AD and adderal. The adderal was after the Neurofeedback and it simple came naturally. It was weird. Unfortunately I still have relapses and started back on both. I am about to discontinue the AD. I wonder if continuing the Neurofeedback would have help. Too expensive right now and far away I'd like to compare the EEG at the end with an EEG today.

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[pachyderm]

I hear talk about, for instance, the prefrontal cortex of teenagers being immature, so the prefrontal cortex does this or does that -- as though it is a person all its own! I know it's all in our heads (brains), but experience changes brains too.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I hear talk about, for instance, the prefrontal cortex of teenagers being immature, so the prefrontal cortex does this or does that -- as though it is a person all its own! I know it's all in our heads (brains), but experience changes brains too.

That would be me except it was due to concussion.

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[Webgoji]

So do concussions. Maybe I just haven't had enough yet!

[Webgoji]

Originally Posted by Michanne

That would be me except it was due to concussion.

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Dang, you beat me to it!

[marmaduke]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

It occurs to me that many people who concentrate on brain mechanics may do so because they do not want to think about, to remember, their own fears as children. Wonder how often this is the explanation... would it apply to Thomas Insel? What was his childhood like?

I disagree as not everyone who is bi polar or schizophrenic had a bad childhood. Take psychopathy for instance, it use to be believed this was the result of bad parenting, now it beleived that in fact that is not the case, psycopaths are born, not made.
In some people mental illness is genetic, biological. In some I'm sure environment does the damage. Everyone is different.
I think to suggest Thomas Insel is hiding from his fears by suggesting biological causes is wrong.
Humans are very reluctant to move on from old ideas;

“When Columbus lived, people thought that the earth was flat. They believed the Atlantic Ocean to be filled with monsters large enough to devour their ships, and with fearful waterfalls over which their frail vessels would plunge to destruction. Columbus had to fight these foolish beliefs in order to get men to sail with him. He felt sure the earth was round.”

[venusss]

Yeah, but we got proof of round world. Never was there a conclusive proof of biological evidance of MI.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

I think to suggest Thomas Insel is hiding from his fears by suggesting biological causes is wrong.

I don't think I suggested it; I just wonder.

I know that when I remember my childhood, there is a lot of fear there, and it is not comfortable to think about it.

[marmaduke]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

Yeah, but we got proof of round world. Never was there a conclusive proof of biological evidance of MI.

More research needed. However there are twin studies that prove genetic links.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

More research needed. However there are twin studies that prove genetic links.

yeah any decade now. We heard that for few decades now And probably will hear it for decades to come.

When you have to work hard to convince people of your idea you know you have something good

Marsha Linehan talked about her bio social model. It's the idea that bpd is the result of a mix of biology and socialization. Now she makes it clear that she is not a scientist but the thing is treating people as if this model is correct WORKS.

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[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by marmaduke

I disagree as not everyone who is bi polar or schizophrenic had a bad childhood.

I think large parts of our general culture, aside from any extreme cases, are "abusive" in the sense that they are mindless, full of cruelties, or at the least they do not acknowledge basic human psychological needs. In contrast to the modern "right-thinking" experts I really do think that mental illness is a "psycho-sexual" disorder, much as Freud understood sexual -- in a broad sense. Its origins are not to be found in chemistry.

If you look at our culture, you see tremendous and widespread discomfort with sexuality, repression of thought which gets expressed in very many ways. So it does not take an obvious case of "abuse" to result in emotional disorder, when so much of society is disordered already. The pain of it is evident to me. Perhaps in centuries to come people will look back on this time in astonishment at how much psychological sickness there was in our society, much as we look back on how much ignorance there was of physical illnesses in past times.

Can you deny that wide psychological sickness exists now?

Over medicated. As a result of corporate sickness. Very possibly. Not sure about widespread psychological sickness. Could be something in the water though.

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[venusss]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I think large parts of our general culture, aside from any extreme cases, are "abusive" in the sense that they are mindless, full of cruelties, or at the least they do not acknowledge basic human psychological needs. In contrast to the modern "right-thinking" experts I really do think that mental illness is a "psycho-sexual" disorder, much as Freud understood sexual -- in a broad sense. Its origins are not to be found in chemistry.

If you look at our culture, you see tremendous and widespread discomfort with sexuality, repression of thought which gets expressed in very many ways. So it does not take an obvious case of "abuse" to result in emotional disorder, when so much of society is disordered already. The pain of it is evident to me. Perhaps in centuries to come people will look back on this time in astonishment at how much psychological sickness there was in our society, much as we look back on how much ignorance there was of physical illnesses in past times.

Can you deny that wide psychological sickness exists now?

there are lot of problems with our society. I don't really think fitting in and being unaffected by it is sign of "health". Rather of mild degree of some sort of pathology.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Michanne

Not sure about widespread psychological sickness.

After all, that much-maligned (and sometimes wrong, I think) Sigmund Freud wrote, over 100 years ago, The Psychopathology of Everyday Life.

The Psychopathology of Everyday Life - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia