[marie4u]

What does it mean to have a mental illness? is it a serious matter?

What does it mean to have an illness? I think you need to be a little more specific.

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[avlady]

a mental illness is sometimes called a desease, but i'm not sure if it really is. any thoughts on this?

[possum220]

Originally Posted by marie4u

What does it mean to have a mental illness? is it a serious matter?

Please be more specific.

Do you have a type of mental illness in mind? Some mental illnesses can bring a person life to a complete halt. Other illnesses become a backdrop to a person's life. Some people can still be high functioning.

Or are you referring to other people's responses to the one who is ill?

[Stronger]

Your mind is another part of your body. When you have a mental illness it's like having a physical illness, except the symptoms are much different and they are not as visible. It doesn't mean you're crazy or psycho or insane, all it means is that your mind is sick and needs to heal. Unfortunately, the healing process is also quite difficult and very different than that of a physical illness.

[ocdwifeofsociopath]

a mental illness isn't necessarily an "illness". It's usually a disorder, or developmental disability. Most come about from the brain not developing normally in an area. Either from genetics, environmental things, nurture, or a mix.

Originally Posted by ocdwifeofsociopath

a mental illness isn't necessarily an "illness". It's usually a disorder, or developmental disability. Most come about from the brain not developing normally in an area. Either from genetics, environmental things, nurture, or a mix.

Not developing normally? No, I would not make that blanket statement. With some disorders I think the population that is disordered are the so called normal people. Temple Grandin would say that people with autism need an education they can handle and many can become better than average contributors. Artists and scientists and inventors.

I have depression. It's horrible. But is there an aspect to depression that makes me more sensitive? Able to think more abstractly and creatively? Ironically I am aware of this because of the side effects that have dumbed me down.

Chuck close has face blindness. His art completely makes sense once you know this. His art would not be his art without face blindness. It's fascinating. Just try to be "normal" and make a two story portrait. It may be the lack of comprehension that makes him succeed.

Van Gogh. Thought to be bipolar. There is no way his work would have had such intensity while on ssri's. No one can argue the brush strokes, the colors are not the result of extraordinary passion and energy. Do we really want to discard that? There has to be a better solution than numbing people like him out.

Oliver Sacks. Who is better at describing people with neurological idiosyncrasies with such admiration and empathy? He teaches us that with differences in our brains we have uniqueness elsewhere. Sacks also has face blindness. It isn't any different than being taller it having shorter fingers or large hips or big breasts.

Society tells us what is a "deformity" but that does not make it so. Perhaps that is why meds will never be a cure.

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[Hellion]

Originally Posted by ocdwifeofsociopath

a mental illness isn't necessarily an "illness". It's usually a disorder, or developmental disability. Most come about from the brain not developing normally in an area. Either from genetics, environmental things, nurture, or a mix.

Developmental disabilities are neurological conditions, that people are born with so its not quite the same as mental illness. I'm on the autism spectrum and have mental illnesses as well, the autism isn't however a mental illness as its more how my brain works sort of like dyslexia isn't a mental illness. I think all those can still be considered mental disorders or conditions, but there is a difference between mental illness and developmental disabilities.

[ocdwifeofsociopath]

Originally Posted by Michanne

Not developing normally? No, I would not make that blanket statement. With some disorders I think the population that is disordered are the so called normal people. Temple Grandin would say that people with autism need an education they can handle and many can become better than average contributors. Artists and scientists and inventors.

I have depression. It's horrible. But is there an aspect to depression that makes me more sensitive? Able to think more abstractly and creatively? Ironically I am aware of this because of the side effects that have dumbed me down.

Chuck close has face blindness. His art completely makes sense once you know this. His art would not be his art without face blindness. It's fascinating. Just try to be "normal" and make a two story portrait. It may be the lack of comprehension that makes him succeed.

Van Gogh. Thought to be bipolar. There is no way his work would have had such intensity while on ssri's. No one can argue the brush strokes, the colors are not the result of extraordinary passion and energy. Do we really want to discard that? There has to be a better solution than numbing people like him out.

Oliver Sacks. Who is better at describing people with neurological idiosyncrasies with such admiration and empathy? He teaches us that with differences in our brains we have uniqueness elsewhere. Sacks also has face blindness. It isn't any different than being taller it having shorter fingers or large hips or big breasts.

Society tells us what is a "deformity" but that does not make it so. Perhaps that is why meds will never be a cure.

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Depression can be chemical and hormonal. I did not mean for it to be such a large blanket statement except I was assuming what i perceive as the common thought when people think of mental illness. I wondered if my response would have sore feelings because of the negative connotation of the term developmental disability. I also mentioned genetics which is what made you born that way. That doesn't negate an area of the brain developing differently than intended. Some mental issues are also caused by illnesses such as viruses which they have newly discovered. It was not an insult. Don't forget that I have disorders too. There is also a difference between uniqueness and a disorder or disability. Although the two can overlap. Nowhere did I say that people with any sort of issue aren't a blessing and that good can't come out of mental illness or disorders.

[ocdwifeofsociopath]

Originally Posted by Hellion

Developmental disabilities are neurological conditions, that people are born with so its not quite the same as mental illness. I'm on the autism spectrum and have mental illnesses as well, the autism isn't however a mental illness as its more how my brain works sort of like dyslexia isn't a mental illness. I think all those can still be considered mental disorders or conditions, but there is a difference between mental illness and developmental disabilities.

I probably should have said problem with brain development. I know that aspd and ocd are two cases of that.

Not disability. It was the phrase "not developing normally". As if a big chunk of the brain is missing when in fact was have pluses and minuses which means the part we label as a disorder is not the whole picture. Developing abnormally implies the option is permanent and not able to be fixed without medication or other intervention. Disorder or illness can be managed or cured or even turned into an advantage. For some people this can be done without medication.

There are people who believe MI can't be helped without med or medical intervention and I say there are lots of people who have. And there are lots of people who have used meds for a period of time and learned how to live without them. Abnormally formed brain sounds like that guy who says black people have smaller brains or whatever nonsense.

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[ocdwifeofsociopath]

It does imply that. The special thing about mental disabilities though is that the brain had an amazing ability to "re-map" itself. However, that doesn't mean it can be at 100%. In certain cases

...if one is a genius, they have not developed normally. If you are really tall, you have not developed normally. If you have red hair and blue eyes, you are technically in the realm of abnormal [they are both regressive, meaning an extremely small percentage of the world's population possess both traits].

If you have a mental illness, something about you didn't develop normally- your brain. Whether inherent or by environment, or both, your normal path of development was altered somehow.

That doesn't indicate anything other than what it says: abnormal development leads to abnormal functioning and suddenly we have clusters of symptoms we categorize into mental illnesses. The RDoC [NIMH in the US] is looking into definitive ways to identify symptoms of mental illness from a biological standpoint- much of this includes functioning and development of the brain. There are a lot of specific ways that brains belonging to those who identify as having mental illness work differently. That's not saying anything demeaning or negative, it simply saying their brains have developed outside the realm of what is normally expected... which would be why certain aspects of life are more challenging.

When people have said in the past that specific people of a specific "race" had smaller brains, it was an attempt to make a connection between supposed "subhuman" traits [false] and that particular demographic.

If we choose, in this case, to completely ignore biological development as a key factor in mental illness, either on it's own or as a result of environment, it's pretty much cutting off the nose to spite the face.

And neuroplasticity, as ocdwife said, is a HUGE thing. A huge AMAZING thing- for a long time everyone was convinced that a TBI meant, no question, permanent damage and that any damage or missed developmental input meant that fate was sealed, there was no turning that around.
When I talk about brains, neuroplasticity is a given and accepted concept- for me. But not for everyone, and I get that. But some of the medications we take- some of the anticonvulsants- actually have neuroregenerative properties.

But abnormality could be anything on either end of the bell curve, and acknowledging abnormality does not endorse any kind of idea of inferiority, unless we choose to do so.

One more thing:
Any consistently applied intervention has the power to change the brain to some degree if applied long enough and in an effective manner- not just medication or the more invasive treatments. One of the challenge is applying any intervention with rigorous consistency, and also being able to determine when which interventions are most appropriate.

Here is the definition of abnormal:

deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying.
"the illness is recognizable from the patient's abnormal behavior"
synonyms:unusual, uncommon, atypical, untypical, nontypical, unrepresentative, rare, isolated, irregular, anomalous, deviant, divergent, aberrant, freak, freakish; More
antonyms:normal, typical, common

By your argument nobody is normal. And I would agree with that! That's the first thing that makes the word abnormal silly for describing MI. Our culture says everyone should be normal and shame tells us we are not. NOBODY is immune to these feelings. In fact we live in what is called a culture of scarcity where nobody is satisfied with what they are or have. We see ourselves as abnormal and not in a good way.

Nobody knows for sure all MI is even >because< of the brain. This is why a blanket statement is troubling. There is a lot of evidence what happens in the gut is as important or more. In fact there are people that refer to the intestinal system as a "second brain". Btw, our knowledge if our intestinal system is about as great as our knowledge of the deep oceans. I know a lot about neuroplasticity. Fascinating thing. Does not mean the cause of MI is an abnormal brain. The fact that you have a flexible brain might point more to a healthy brain than an unhealthy brain. You can adapt. For years they worked on chemicals in the brain. Now it is neurology. There may be something to it but it is not proof. There is no doubt in my mind they are learning a lot and there is a lot to be gained. But you can't say that it is "abnormally developed brains" when there is a possibility it could be diet (for example). Honestly, I don't think there will be a biological "test" like there is for aids. It think that idea is the continuation of the mythical magic bullet. I think MI is a wholistic illness as is the solution. People who get better do much more than take meds. There are a lot that get better without meds. I don't know anybody that gets better on meds alone. To quote the title of an article "your brain is a rainforest". So is your body. I do feel they are intimately connected when it comes to MI. And I don't mean just the bio portion of the brain. I mean your whole body.

PTSD is an abnormality? PTSD happens when somebody experience event(s) so atrocious to them that their mind and body go into defense mode. I can't see that as abnormal. It is a normal reaction that needs special treatment. If I had been raised in a more nurturing environment therefore avoiding a hospital stay and pills would I still have an abnormal brain? IMO, a genius is not abnormal. They are exceptional, unique. They have challenges just like the rest of us too. Some of them are part of being a genius. I am pretty sure a genius would not appreciate being called abnormal.

Disease, illness, disorder. Those are all words that do not define the individual. Abnormal does. There has been much made about saying "I am" vs "I have". Iow, I am bipolar or autistic. It gives more importance to the disease than the individual. This is an important distinction. Besides not needing yet another word I don't think we need that one in particular. When somebody is in a shame storm what is the thing they say to themselves? "I am abnormal". It is a derogatory, self mutilating term when used that way. Words like that really do matter. You're taking this down a very bad path, IMO.

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Originally Posted by ocdwifeofsociopath

It does imply that. The special thing about mental disabilities though is that the brain had an amazing ability to "re-map" itself. However, that doesn't mean it can be at 100%. In certain cases

You can have an illness and not be disabled.

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[venusss]

I use the word "quirk" which apparently offends some to high heaven.

What offends me though, is suggestion my brain is "abnormal" or "underdeveloped" or "broken" and I have depend on chemicals to "fix" it.

Not that is was always easy for me, but I wouldn't blame my intelligent, always thinking, creative and quirky brain for it. At least not alone. Yeah, I wish it would shut up at times, that I could turn off the associations I sometimes have (however, I don't desire to turn that off pernamently).

PTSD is an abnormality? PTSD happens when somebody experience event(s) so atrocious to them that their mind and body go into defense mode. I can't see that as abnormal. It is a normal reaction that needs special treatment.

careful with statements like that. You are about to face mad people who will defend that they are disordered and you are offending them by telling them they are not.

But for me? THANK YOU ****ING MUCHLY!

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I use the word "quirk" which apparently offends some to high heaven.

What offends me though, is suggestion my brain is "abnormal" or "underdeveloped" or "broken" and I have depend on chemicals to "fix" it.

Not that is was always easy for me, but I wouldn't blame my intelligent, always thinking, creative and quirky brain for it. At least not alone. Yeah, I wish it would shut up at times, that I could turn off the associations I sometimes have (however, I don't desire to turn that off pernamently).



careful with statements like that. You are about to face mad people who will defend that they are disordered and you are offending them by telling them they are not.

But for me? THANK YOU ****ING MUCHLY!

Your welcome

Yeah... I should clarify that I was referring to an "abnormally developing brain". The unintended (I hope) implied suggestion that a person with PTSD was abnormal before the event(s) took place that triggered the PTSD. Not to the how, what, why afterwords which would definitely spur some debate I am way over my head when it comes to explaining what happens to make somebody unable to function properly due to PTSD.

I don't have a problem with quirk. It actually means "a peculiar behavioral habit". It fits a lot better with where I am going which is to say we don't know what causes MI. "Quirk" says something behaves differently without being specific. We know so little that they could really be looking in the wrong part of the body. Of course I think that the brain is probably involved somehow. I'm just saying we don't have proof therefore it is inaccurate to say the brain was abnormally formed.

Oh... Now i had a concussion at 7. You can pick up the damage even now. Given where it is it makes sense that i have been effected by this damage. But that is measurable and it happened as a result of an accident. They could try but I doubt seriously they could explain my depression that way. According to the person who did the EEG I have a "great brain" otherwise. It would take too long to go into why I think nutrition plays a bigger role in depression than something inherited. But I don't think the cause is isolated to the brain.

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[A Red Panda]

(I'm going to ignore the argument over disability/abnormal/disorder/illness/diseased/etc because I really don't think that's answering or talking about what the OP has asked)

To me, having a mental illness (I am using OP's terminolgy here) means that I have challenges to face in how my mind processes information and emotions, and challenges with my behaviour. These challenges are often more extreme/pervasive/abnormal (because yes, some of those challenges ARE worrying or undesirable to me!) than what the average person faces. The challenges will cause my life difficulty because I will not always be up to functioning the way that I would normally. Sometimes I enjoy the changes (I have bipolar 2, so I'm referring to when I'm hypomanic) because there can be benefits - when I'm hypomanic I feel a lot more confident in myself and am often much more productive.

Really, to me, it just means that my brain works differently as the paths in it didn't all form the way that they are ideally "meant" to (I use that term because yes, my brain is wired differently than human brains are ideally meant to - loads of people have various miswires...), so I have to try and rewire my own brain using various methods - which ones are up to me. They happened to be wired in a way that most matches the bipolar 2 diagnosis. If my brain was wired averagely, then I would not be diagnosed with any disorder as I would not have one.

And that is what having a mental illness means to me. It will mean something different to different people.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Michanne

Here is the definition of abnormal:

deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying.
"the illness is recognizable from the patient's abnormal behavior"
synonyms:unusual, uncommon, atypical, untypical, nontypical, unrepresentative, rare, isolated, irregular, anomalous, deviant, divergent, aberrant, freak, freakish; More
antonyms:normal, typical, common

By your argument nobody is normal. And I would agree with that! That's the first thing that makes the word abnormal silly for describing MI. Our culture says everyone should be normal and shame tells us we are not. NOBODY is immune to these feelings. In fact we live in what is called a culture of scarcity where nobody is satisfied with what they are or have. We see ourselves as abnormal and not in a good way.

Nobody knows for sure all MI is even >because< of the brain. This is why a blanket statement is troubling. There is a lot of evidence what happens in the gut is as important or more. In fact there are people that refer to the intestinal system as a "second brain". Btw, our knowledge if our intestinal system is about as great as our knowledge of the deep oceans. I know a lot about neuroplasticity. Fascinating thing. Does not mean the cause of MI is an abnormal brain. The fact that you have a flexible brain might point more to a healthy brain than an unhealthy brain. You can adapt. For years they worked on chemicals in the brain. Now it is neurology. There may be something to it but it is not proof. There is no doubt in my mind they are learning a lot and there is a lot to be gained. But you can't say that it is "abnormally developed brains" when there is a possibility it could be diet (for example). Honestly, I don't think there will be a biological "test" like there is for aids. It think that idea is the continuation of the mythical magic bullet. I think MI is a wholistic illness as is the solution. People who get better do much more than take meds. There are a lot that get better without meds. I don't know anybody that gets better on meds alone. To quote the title of an article "your brain is a rainforest". So is your body. I do feel they are intimately connected when it comes to MI. And I don't mean just the bio portion of the brain. I mean your whole body.

PTSD is an abnormality? PTSD happens when somebody experience event(s) so atrocious to them that their mind and body go into defense mode. I can't see that as abnormal. It is a normal reaction that needs special treatment. If I had been raised in a more nurturing environment therefore avoiding a hospital stay and pills would I still have an abnormal brain? IMO, a genius is not abnormal. They are exceptional, unique. They have challenges just like the rest of us too. Some of them are part of being a genius. I am pretty sure a genius would not appreciate being called abnormal.

Disease, illness, disorder. Those are all words that do not define the individual. Abnormal does. There has been much made about saying "I am" vs "I have". Iow, I am bipolar or autistic. It gives more importance to the disease than the individual. This is an important distinction. Besides not needing yet another word I don't think we need that one in particular. When somebody is in a shame storm what is the thing they say to themselves? "I am abnormal". It is a derogatory, self mutilating term when used that way. Words like that really do matter. You're taking this down a very bad path, IMO.

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Well in a sense PTSD isn't exactly 'abnormal' I mean it involves normal body processes...what is abnormal about it is it can put your body in defense mode where its not necessary causing one to be in a state of over-stress which can contribute to other health problems. From what I understand there are changes in the brain and body that cause the over-active stress response. Also though not everyone who experiences trauma develops PTSD, no one experiences it and is un-effected but not everyone ends up with PTSD...so while its not an abnormal response to trauma(it does make sense such an event could f*** someone up) It still does end up being a Disorder because of how debilitating it is. Also I'd say my brain before PTSD was different....so for me it is now abnormal compared to what was 'normal' for me. Before it was normal for me to be able to concentrate really well on studying/researching/reading and all that stuff after that my concentration was destroyed essentially..but that is just one example of one abnormality I noticed.

But its the same with lots of mental disorders, like Depression feeling down and such isn't abnormal...but depression can take it to an extreme to where you constantly feel that way even if there isn't a situational reason.

All mental disorders are essentially normal human behavior/reactions that happen to such an extent it can be debilitating for that individual. And I would agree that a holistic approach when dealing with a mental illness or disorder is important as the brain and body are not separate entities.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

I use the word "quirk" which apparently offends some to high heaven.

I dislike that word because its usually used more lightly...like usually a quirk is seen as something that is a bit different or strange but doesn't really do any harm. So while I might use the term to describe some features about myself....I couldn't use it to describe my symptoms as in my mind it would be like downplaying them. Like 'oh its just a little quirk you have that when someone triggers you into fight or flight you have difficulties not punching them in the face' to me thats not a quirk that is a problem.

But I am not offended if people use the term quirk to describe themselves, just wouldn't want someone calling one of my severe symptoms a quirk as that seems to make light of it.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Well in a sense PTSD isn't exactly 'abnormal' I mean it involves normal body processes...what is abnormal about it is it can put your body in defense mode where its not necessary causing one to be in a state of over-stress which can contribute to other health problems. From what I understand there are changes in the brain and body that cause the over-active stress response. Also though not everyone who experiences trauma develops PTSD, no one experiences it and is un-effected but not everyone ends up with PTSD...so while its not an abnormal response to trauma(it does make sense such an event could f*** someone up) It still does end up being a Disorder because of how debilitating it is. Also I'd say my brain before PTSD was different....so for me it is now abnormal compared to what was 'normal' for me. Before it was normal for me to be able to concentrate really well on studying/researching/reading and all that stuff after that my concentration was destroyed essentially..but that is just one example of one abnormality I noticed.

But its the same with lots of mental disorders, like Depression feeling down and such isn't abnormal...but depression can take it to an extreme to where you constantly feel that way even if there isn't a situational reason.

All mental disorders are essentially normal human behavior/reactions that happen to such an extent it can be debilitating for that individual. And I would agree that a holistic approach when dealing with a mental illness or disorder is important as the brain and body are not separate entities.

It isnt the word abnormal the way you are using it that troubles me. It is "brain not developing normally" that I am having trouble with. If you have PTSD it is unlikely it has anything to do with how your brain developed when you were young, before the trauma even happened. It is also the assumption that we know the problem is due an abnormal brain. We don't. It just happens the area they choose to concentrate their research in.

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[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Michanne

It isnt the word abnormal the way you are using it that troubles me. It is "brain not developing normally" that I am having trouble with. If you have PTSD it is unlikely it has anything to do with how your brain developed when you were young, before the trauma even happened. It is also the assumption that we know the problem is due an abnormal brain. We don't. It just happens the area they choose to concentrate their research in.

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I wouldn't say my PTSD was a result of my brain not developing normally...however I'd say my being on the autism spectrum is, as it involves atypical neurology thus causing the brain to develop differently than someone who is not on the spectrum which most people aren't making it 'abnormal'. But as I mentioned before that's not a mental illness, mental illnesses I don't think are the result of the brain not developing normally...though depending on the age one develops a mental illness it can effect brain development like having depression and anxiety at a young age when the brain is doing quite a lot of developing, but its not caused by brain development.

Originally Posted by Hellion

I wouldn't say my PTSD was a result of my brain not developing normally...however I'd say my being on the autism spectrum is, as it involves atypical neurology thus causing the brain to develop differently than someone who is not on the spectrum which most people aren't making it 'abnormal'. But as I mentioned before that's not a mental illness, mental illnesses I don't think are the result of the brain not developing normally...though depending on the age one develops a mental illness it can effect brain development like having depression and anxiety at a young age when the brain is doing quite a lot of developing, but its not caused by brain development.

Atypical is getting closer. It says not typical. A description. Whereas abnormal is derogatory, according to the definition. Normal is completely subjective and used way too often in society to define something out of reach.

Thomas Armstrong wrote a very important article called "your brain is a rainforest" which just about everyone should read IMHO. The following except is from an article about the character lisabeth from dragon tattoo. You and I have talked about autism and whether it is really a "gift". Armstrong is a researcher in autism who addresses those issues but he does not say it isn't a disorder. He is saying, in part, that "normal" is in context of our culture. I am saying that disorders also bring gifts by nature of the disorder such as the examples I already gave. We all have gifts, even you. Thats why I hate derogatory sounding labels, descriptions used to describe individuals.

Excerpt:

"This mixture of perceived vulnerability, multiple talents and unique personality are common traits and trials of those who bear labels, diagnosis and our mis-judgments. The label of Down syndrome tells us no more about an individual's gifts than being gray and balding. Neither does the label autistic. To help you and I better understand Lisabeth Salander and millions of people like her I recommend the following article from Ode magazine: Your Brain is a Rainforest.

The author, Thomas Armstrong, puts to rest the fallacy of normalcy making the point that just as there is no such thing as a normal flower or normal cultural or racial group, there is no such thing as a normal brain. We recognize the importance of bio-diversity (thus the rainforest metaphor) and cultural and racial diversity. He argues we also need to recognize the importance of neuro-diversity.

Instead of medicalizing and pathologizing the diversity of human brains, we need to recognize that the 'differences among us are as enriching - and essential - as differences among plants and animals.'"

http://www.aletmanski.com/al-etmansk...est-brain.html

http://www.odemagazine.com/doc/70/Yo...-a-rain-forest

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[Hellion]

I suppose I see abnormal meaning the same thing as atypical...its not as 'common' I mean obviously there are more neurotypicals than people with autism..so makes it not typical not sure why abnormal would have such a different meaning to that. Or has the word abnormal just developed a negative connotation?

Of course neurodiversity is important and differences can be positive, however it also should not be ignored that things like autism also come with quite a lot of difficulties and can be disabling in some ways. Though I am quite certain this society makes it more disabling than it might otherwise be.

[venusss]

But is the "disability" (inability to function within society) problem of the individual or the larger society?

I mean... not so long ago being black held you back. Different sexual orientation is a problem....

sometimes i think, if everybody was more understanding and tolerating towards some things... they would not be issues (note: NOT refering to using MI as excuse for abusive or otherwise harmful behavior... just things that don't matter in long run).