[pachyderm]

"...even if schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and depression were cured, our society's problem of violence would diminish by only about 4 percent..."

Gun violence and mental illness: Study addresses perception vs. reality

[glok]

Thanks for sharing, pachyderm. I intend to send the link to my congressional delegation.

[Sometimes psychotic]

Yeah I actually saw an article once that said more or less that if you want to restrict the mentally ill then you should also restrict men...the violence percentage in men is considerably higher than for women so if you want to start drawing distinctions that would be effective that would be one of them....

The problem is the same as airplanes vs cars....cars are way more dangerous but people freak out everytime there is an airplane incident ...

[OCDHubby]

Our society misses the obvious when we clamor for "gun control" or wrestle to find ways of creating some invasive ability, such as making it mandatory for mental health professionals to report an unbalanced person before they commit an act of gun violence!

I offer a new twist on the saying "Guns don't kill people, people do".

Consider this obvious fact:A firearm, in and of itself is harmless. Most of them, alone, would make dandy paper weights, book ends or decorative wall hangings.

Guns need to be "fed" in order to become lethal weapons. Guns "eat" bullets.

Only once it has been fed is the sporting, hunting, or criminal power of the now bullet-enabled gun able to be unleashed.

It still requires a human being to pull the trigger.

I submit that we need to control neither the gun nor the human.

Remove, interrupt, restrict, control, understand and track gun feed (bullets) from the point of manufacture to the point of public availability and on to the firearm owner and we will reduce the firearms violence.

1. Physically separate the point of purchase of a firearm from that for bullets. Make it just a tad more difficult to connect gun and bullet in a one stop shop.

2. Without excessive regulation and without excessive privacy invasion, establish a system of "certification" for buyers of ammunition that lists their use for a fire arm i.e. personal protection; deer hunting; target shooting.

3. Assign each buyer a unique ID to be presented, along with valid form of personal identification (the two must match) when buying "ammo". They can buy all the guns they want - no questions asked. Understand, Mr. Buyer, your ammunition purchase history is "on the record".

4. Staff the "ammo store" with TRAINED sales people who have military, law enforcement, psych or other medical training. This is not a minimum wage job. Train and pay them well as professionals.

5. Perhaps have the "ammo store" run by the State as is done in NH and VT with liquor and makes a nice profit for the State. Or, establish the ammo store under the jurisdiction of local law enforcement and place it physically as part of law enforcement facilities.

6. Also control the various parts and equipment needed to make ammunition. Control the brass, gun powder, and stamping and filing equipment used for home manufacture of ammo. Now that does not say that a musket enthusiast can not have all the ammo making supplies he wants. It does say that a gang member in South Chicago is not going to easily set up a black market ammo factory for his closest friends.

Examples:

Joe Smith is an NRA member and an avid outdoorsman. Known in town for his big game prowess. He registers as an ammo buyer. At the store he waves hello to the staff as a "known local" and is unchallenged in buying 200 shot gun shells 5 days before deer season opens. The purchase makes sense. It tracks. And it becomes part of his patter of ammo-buying saved in his history file. He likely never draws attention because all his purchases "fit" his gun use and ammo requirement profile.

Sam Jones is military. He easily registers as an ammo buyer stating in his profile the need for self protection and target practice. First time he buys ammo it is for his Glock - 100 bullets. No problem. A week later he's back, perhaps at a different time of day or different store in the next County. He gets 50 bullets for a Colt; 10 days later 150 slugs for a rifle in an out of state store At some point, however, this guy's purchase profile - as to frequency, the amount of ammo, caliber etc is computer-flagged by a central computer system run by ATFE for attention. He might have to explain himself to a trained interviewer the next time. Or, perhaps someone knocks on his door asking about his ammo buying. Military base shooting avoided?

Lun E Toon starts hatching his mall, theater or school shooting plan.

Ummm? I can go buy a Glock, an AK47 and 3 AR-15's. No probemo.

But boy, I'm gonna need a lot of ammo.

Ahhh, but there's a problem. Not only do I have to get an ammo buying permit, I have to go down to the State or County Ammo Store to start amassing my stash. I have to drive into the police station parking lot!! I have to walk in "there"???

The thought of staring into the steel cold eyes of a uniformed State Trooper who is clearly practicing behavioral analysis techniques and asking too many questions?? That scares the willies out of Lun E Toon. Too much to bear.

Lun E Toon's Mass Cas plan gets abandoned;the threat to innocent citizens is averted.

No law abiding gun owning average Citizen or NRA member should ever in his right mind, object to a small amount of personal inconvenience if it means, collectively, that we reduce and eliminate what has become a staple on the news: "Yet another shooting in a school, pizza shop, military deployment center or hospital".

This is simple Risk Management 101:

Control the bullet and you do not need to control the gun or owner.. Over time as bullets become scarce and unavailable to the wrong folks, you will solve a large part of the problem without needlessly treading on anyone's Constitutional Right to Bear Arms or invading their privacy - medical or otherwise.

[Maven]

I'd have to think more about your solution, OCDHubby, to give a full response, but I'm short on time tonight. One question comes to mind, though: What if the criminals can create their own bullets? I know they can create their own guns, but I've never thought about bullets. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to do that, though.

Edit: I skimmed that article, pachyderm, and will read it more thoroughly when I have time and post an opinion. It looks a lot more sensible than most of the crap we see and hear these days. I still would have problems if people said the mentally ill should have no access to guns, because they might commit suicide. I think it has to be on a case-by-case basis. More later.

OCDHubby, welcome to PC, btw! Do you have OCD, or are you married to someone who does? I have severe OCD and panic disorder.

[Hellion]

Not surprising at all considering most violent crime is not comitted by mentally ill people.

OCDHubby,

I found your post rather juvenile. Clearly you are just another anti-gun person.

Restrict bullets? Get real. Many "serious" gun owners make their own bullets, how are you going to stop that? Next - ever hear of the internet?

But the overall premise was that "government" needed to control guns/bullets. Clearly you do not understand the PURPOSE of the 2nd amendment. It was not to ensure that people could hunt - it was to ensure that the people could defend themselves. Not only against an intruder - but also from an out-of-control government.

Government is not the solution - it IS the problem. And clearly you are part of that problem.

[Nammu]

Originally Posted by Hellion

Not surprising at all considering most violent crime is not comitted by mentally ill people.

The mentally ill are more often the victims of crime. Everyone just shakes their head and says, oh that's too bad and does little to help. The few MI who do violence get a lot of media attention and everybody says, we gotta do something about these crasy people! Talk about a double standard.

Originally Posted by pachyderm

"...even if schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and depression were cured, our society's problem of violence would diminish by only about 4 percent..."

isn't there some stat about how 50% of mental illness in prison is psychosis or something like that?

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Useless Me

Clearly you do not understand the PURPOSE of the 2nd amendment. It was not to ensure that people could hunt - it was to ensure that the people could defend themselves. Not only against an intruder - but also from an out-of-control government.

How is this related to the necessity of having a "well-regulated Militia"?

[Pikku Myy]

Believe I read somewhere about 40% of the human population suffers from MI............

[Nammu]

I found some stats

http://www.newsweek.com/nearly-1-5-a...ch-year-230608
The estimates are from 18 to 26 percent. The 26 percent was in 2004 so I didnt include it.

Matthew Mangino: Prisons are the*new mental asylums - Opinion - Holland Sentinel - Holland, MI

The MI are not in prison because they are violent, they are there because people dont want them around so they get stuck in prison for things like stealing food, trespassing, vagrancy and even for being victims of crime.

Criminalization of mentally ill and mental illness

[Silent Void]

Everyone is mentally ill in some way. I'm sure even our pathetic CIC is neurotic.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by sidestepper

The mentally ill are more often the victims of crime. Everyone just shakes their head and says, oh that's too bad and does little to help. The few MI who do violence get a lot of media attention and everybody says, we gotta do something about these crasy people! Talk about a double standard.

Yeah exactly its funny how you don't hear a whole lot about mentally ill people who are victims of crimes....like a while back I read something about a cop shooting some schizophrenic teen while trying to 'subdue' him while they already had him restrained and unable to do anything and I belive the cop said something like 'I don't have time for this' before firing...parents left with dead child I am not even sure if that ever made national news as I only saw it on a forum where someone bothered posting an article they dug up and I sure haven't seen threads or anything in the media of people calling for harsh penalties for that cop.

Another thing is are the cops typically considered responsible gun owners? if so I really, really question that some are and use the appropriately but I hear far too many incidents of cops shooting people where its not necessary, shooting peoples dogs when its not necessary and plenty of other things.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Silent Void

Everyone is mentally ill in some way. I'm sure even our pathetic CIC is neurotic.

I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but no not everyone is mentally ill in some way....might as well say everyone has back problems, or everyone has IBS or everyone suffers from paralysis in some way I mean come on now.

I don't know just bothers me as I have mental problems and it is a serious thing I have to deal with every day, and no not everyone else is mentally ill...plenty of people aren't and have no idea how it would be to live with a mental illness.

[Silent Void]

Originally Posted by Hellion

I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but no not everyone is mentally ill in some way....might as well say everyone has back problems, or everyone has IBS or everyone suffers from paralysis in some way I mean come on now.

I don't know just bothers me as I have mental problems and it is a serious thing I have to deal with every day, and no not everyone else is mentally ill...plenty of people aren't and have no idea how it would be to live with a mental illness.

You haven't been paying attention to modern psychiatry.

[Nammu]

Originally Posted by Silent Void

You haven't been paying attention to modern psychiatry.

If everyone has a mental illness wouldn't that make it "normal" and therefore put the shrinks out of business?

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by Silent Void

You haven't been paying attention to modern psychiatry.

You mean the modern idiocy that passes for psychology?...then again there are still some useful studies and info as some people in the field actually are interested in studying how peoples brains work and are interested in helping people. But most of what gets out in the media is BS from what I can tell. Not to mention the whole system is corrupt why would the medical field including psychology be left out?

Either way not everyone is mentally ill, unless they have an issue that significantly impairs functioning its not a mental illness...that is how it works. Sure everyone feels depressed sometimes for instance, not everyone has a depression disorder. The pharmaceutical industry does like to push drugs, so of course they will try to have some influence within the medical field(not that I agree, I think its a terrible way to go about things). Not to mention the point of prescribing medications should be to make people feel better, not make a profit and yet some people are forced to and/or pressured to take medications that make them feel worse.

I actually do pay attention.