[FearsomeAnna]

I saw this on the news today - wondered what you all thought about it.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/03/22/antidepressant.warning.ap/index.html>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/03/22/antidepressant.warning.ap/index.html</A>

My opinion is that the antidepressants have a suicide link because they give you your energy back - at least to the point where you might feel able to "do" something. I think more careful monitoring should be called for while realizing the tremendous help these drugs have been.

Hm.....thoughts?

some of it's magic
some of it's tragic
but i had a good life all the way......
~jimmy buffett

[dexter]

>>My opinion is that the antidepressants have a suicide link because they give you your energy back

yea i agree. funny i thought this was "old news" especially regarding prozac, i've heard that for a long time. now that i'm in that cycle i can believe that even more... going from deep depression with no motivation and no energy to do or act on anything, if the meds help you to improve you may be a point where your "energy" starts to come back yet you are still very depressed.

It still is a good idea to be aware of this and make sure people are monitored carefully. especially i bet a lot of people without getting full knowledge of how they work from their doctors... i'm talking about people not realizing how long they take to be effective or expecting them to make them "happy" like an illicit drug or something. they may actually be improving slowly, but if they are not informed what to expect, they may not realize it is working and tend to feel even more hopeless because treatment "isn't working"

I just hate to see it go around as a "scare". Some people will take it that way under any circumstance but the media doesn't need to be feeding into hysteria. i'm talking in general not just about antidepressants. of course i'll have to go live on a different planet to see that.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[darkeyes]

I heard something like this warning quite some time ago, personally I think any med can have similar or same side effect, remember Accutane for acne? (I was on it when it first hit the scene) well, cause a kid killed himself the family was linking it to Accutane, I doubt that was the real reason, but that is me. I think a person just has to work closely with their docs, and med monitoring, and this will not happen, I also think families of people who suicide and happen to be on the meds in this warning, start looking for escape goats.
Don't get me wrong I am sure there are legitimate cases, that the meds may have induced suicidal thoughts or suicide, but I really do not think it is as they claim, I think things tend to get blown out of proportion, hey, people can sue the companies, making money off the death of a loved one, cause you cannot get money if a person just suicided ontheir own account, just a thought to ponder.
Thanks for posting this, I enjoy when you add to our forums, keep coming here

DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[sarahblue]

I think that it's important for patients and their families, when they are prescribed antidepressants, to be aware that not every drug works for every person. In some cases, one person's "cure" is another person's "poison."

Prozac made me manic when I first started it. While I was on it, if I drank even the smallest amount of caffeine, watch out. I would totally lose it. Of course, my doctor didn't tell me that. I had to figure it out for myself.

I'm now on Zoloft, and it works just fine for me.

Starting out on meds can be tricky. They don't work right away. And some of them are not gonna work. They definitely need monitoring.

sarah

[PlanningtoLive]

It is important, I agree, but did anyone notice the number of kids on these anti-depressants?

It's sad that so many children are feeling the effects of depression all ready. It shocked me to see the figures. Are doctors just prescribing them or are the kids REALLY in need of the meds?

If they're in need, then why? What is wrong that is causing such distress.

Makes me just want to crawl back into my hole and get more depressed over this one. [sigh]

[(JD)]

Yes, we heard this before, guess the fda has decided it is bigger problem than it thought.

as for the depressed children... wondering if the thousands of murders and crimes and rage they watch on tv and in video games has taken away the simplicity of childhood and mentally affected them?

If that's so, shame on us for not protecting them.

Another thot on the drugs... might be more ppl are reacting to them like I always have... paradoxically. playing with brain chemicals... needs lots of studies I think,

<font color=blue> meditation is a true way to connect to the Source </font color=blue>

[Rapunzel]

Mary Alice,

All of the above. Children do suffer from depression for various reasons. I did, but didn't get any treatment until after I left home. I can trace it back to when I was 9 years old by my writing, but probably actually even further than that - I started self injuring by the time I was 5. There could be various reasons - social issues, being picked on or bullied, abuse, family situations, etc. But antidepressants are not often tested and evaluated for use with children, and caution is definitely called for. Just like with adults, I don't think that antidepressants are the total answer.

It has been known for certain antidepressants to have bad effects on kids, but as far as adult suicide rates being higher after starting antidepressants, I don't blame that on the drug. The highest risk for suicide has been known to be after people start feeling better and getting some energy back. So, all it means is that the medicine was probably starting to work. Still, the warning is probably a good idea if it will mean better monitoring at that time.

<font color=orange>"They accused us of suppressing freedom of expression. This was a lie and we could not let them publish it." ... from the Director of Censorship...

</font color=orange>

[FearsomeAnna]

DE,

I agree with you on this - anyone who has ever lost anyone important to them, our pets included, knows that anger is a stage of grief. I have to wonder how much of this is comprised of parents, friends and family trying desperately to think of any reason why their son/daughter/mother/father/brother/sister/cousin "did" this. It is much easier to blame something that their loved one ingested rather than to examine their own behavior. This is not to say that all family members of all people that commit suicide are to blame, this is to say that grief is a terrible burden and its very human to want to shift that burden onto something inanimate. A tragedy like suicide is terrifying.

some of it's magic
some of it's tragic
but i had a good life all the way......
~jimmy buffett

[darkeyes]

Most definately, funny, Prozac did the opposite for me, no mania, just fatigue, no beneficial response, shows that the saying you used is so true.
Everyone reacts to meds. some favorable and others can have unpleasant reactions.
I cannot stress enough how patients really need to work closely with doctors, even the families of the patient need to be aware of any signs of unfavorable reactions and report them to the doc ASAP.
Thanks for adding to the original post

DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[darkeyes]

Many working parents that I saw while working at an elementary school, where less in touch with their kids compared to many of us "baby boomer" generation, and sort of contribute to this problem, today's society, the news, bullying, and other issues that can be added to the mix, contribute to today's problems with kids, it is not that docs are handing out meds to kids like lollipops.
My sister-in-law and I (she is a school nurse for over 20 yrs.) have seen an inccrease of mothers asking their pediatricians or GP's to write scripts for Ritalin, the majority of the kids not having a need for the med, many not ADD/ADHD, my therapist even sees it and other professionals I have spoke to, many young parents, too busy, not having time to raise their kids, have behavioural problems that need discipline and attention, that is all, not some miracle med.
Now I am not speaking for all cases so I want to make it clear, I do not want anyone taking offense at what I am adding here, from "real life" experience and knowledge, I stress that I said "many" not "all" parents and kids.
We can't put the blame on doctors (unless they just freely agree with the parents) that are trying to take an easy way out of bringing up their children, it is the parent's responsibility to be there for their kids, not doctors nor the schools. Due to the high amount of divorce has been another contributing factor to many childrens problems, compared to decades ago, there is such a mix that is real while at the same time imagined by those that do not want to accept full responsibility for raising, nurturing and just being there for their kids. Years ago (many) people started families at an younger age, grandparents were still living and the children were able to have their grandparents fill in when mom or dad were too busy, or had to go somewhere were kids weren't allowed, being with a close relative during these sort of occasions was a big help, today we put off having kids till we are older and feel we can afford them and the dream house (or just suitable home) meanwhile most grandparents are no longer living, many children never get to have grandparents, so they end up under the care of strangers or daycare, may be good substitutes but leaves an uncontinued circle in "the circle of life" (Lion King) this affects some kids and then there may be some that are unaffected.
Sorry for this long winded reply, hope I didn't bore or agitate anyone, that was not the purpose of my reply
I just want people to not look to blame doctors, and schools for the increase in childhood depression, also we need to remember kids are human, they can have bad days, they don't always have a day in "Mr Rogers" neighborhood (many of us never did) so there will be times that kids can feel down, but if it is extended over a period, then it is a good idea to seek a child psychologist/therapist, perhaps through a doctors referral and try to nip the problem and work things out, if a parent is not available for the child, signs can go unnoticed and then more severe problems can develop.
Whew, DE, can talk a lot, ha!ha!
This was a great topic that was posted here, I thank all who added to this, helps us to see things aren't always "black and white" and there is not always the easy way out of working out things, especially our children, I just suggest parents make time to be with their kids, get involved with who they hang out with, where they are, and just talk with them, if something seems not right, ask them about their day at school, out on the playground, ro just right out ask them "how are you"? Is everything okay? Even working parents need to make time to talk, and be with your kids.
Just my long winded 2 cents.

Sincerely,
DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[Peanut61]

I actually got a severe side effect while at increasing levels of prozac, that caused my to feel a driving sense of suicidality - I've never had that with any other anti-depressant including the one I'm on now, (and for 2 years), celexa, so I'm thinking there is something to the concern in some people. Just my 2 cents. :-)

<font color=blue>HI FROM PEANUT</font color=blue>

[darkeyes]

But I gather you reported this to your doc, right? That is the first step people on meds and feel an unfavorable side effect happening.
This controversary of AD's causing depression, ther is the other side of the fence, I read, and note this is just what I read in the paper this morning within this article on the front page in regards to this FDA warning, a group also brought up that it may have not been the AD's that were the cause, they claimed the disease of depression as it runs it course leads to suicide, eventually if not treated or at least recognized by family, friends and the person him or herself.
Such meds on the other hand have helped thousands, and also helped prevent suicides, I do not see anyone seeing that side, typical of the news, dwell on the negatives and do not show people the other side of things.
It boils down to that a patient needs to be responsible for themselves when taking meds of any kind not just AD's to report to their doc of any ill effects, I mean, almost all pharmacies or maybe all always include a MSDS or safety monograph listing possible side effects and to report certain concerns to your doc immediately. I am not taking anyone's sides here, but all meds dispensed come with warnings, the docs (almost all) explain the risks, if not a person should ask as many questions on the risks, or side effects.
My personal opinion, is that people are looking for escape goats, like smoking, it has been decades now that people have been warned about the dangers of smoking, there are people sueing the tobacco companies for the cancer or illness they have developed, blaming them and not taking on the responsibilty, the fact that they chose to continue to smoke, they chose the risk. Sorry, actually that was a digression, but what I am trying to make a point of is that one needs to look at both sides, weigh the risks with the benefits of meds, foods, etc. see what outweighs, then go with what will benefit you and your physical and mental well being.
Geesh, just living, breathing our air, drinking our water, etc. come with risks, side effects and outcome.
I pray for some positive new cures for all that ails us, especially mental disorders.
Finally, DE has finished and is leaving her "soap box" for today, ha!ha! All warmed up for someone to take over, ha!ha!

Thanks gang, for adding on to this thread, sort of like us reading "current events" and talking about them as most of us did in school, for me, a very long time ago

Take care y'all,
DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[kvinneakt]

Why so many kids on anti-depressants? I don't think there is any mystery about this. We live in the most materially successful and spiritually bankrupt civilization in history.

A couple weeks ago I made a rare trip to the mall to do some comparision shopping. Many of the mall citizens were teens. They were wandering listlessly, sitting on benches, and looking at STUFF in teen oriented shops. There was a couple in fashionable weird garb sulking on a bench when I came in. They were still there when I left. She had her head on his shoulder and they both looked totally despondant. I wanted to say "WTF are you doing here? You are both clearly miserable. It seems you don't have school or a job if you are sitting around here during the day, sitting in the foyer of the church of meaningless, mass produced crap materialism."

I certainly don't have a solution, but I can sure easily see some of the why of teen mental illness and drug abuse. Many teens live in soul-less suburbia where the most available community is a mall designed to trade cash for the momentary pleasure of material aquisition. The whole point of their short lives has been to be formed into workers whose duty is to work, not complain too much, and buy material goods. Work, watch tv, buy the many advertising approved drugs, drive a big SUV, and eat unnatural food. What an dismal and dreary plan for life. No, it is no mystery to me why teens, and most everyone, are living lives of quiet desparation.

addendum: Some of you are going to say "go to church". My impression of modern "religion" is it is often yet another mass produced consumer product devoid of spirituality. It is advertised, bought and sold just like McDonald's does hamburgers, a commodity secured by negotiations and transactions.

<font color=blue>[b] Wherever you go, there you are[b]<font color=blue>

[dexter]

>>My personal opinion, is that people are looking for escape goats, like smoking, it has been decades now that people have been warned about the dangers of smoking, there are people sueing the tobacco companies

amen to that. plus is not only the "lack of taking responsibility" thing but also the "sue 'em!" thing that has been getting worse and worse. It's like a mentality that having an accident or illness is like hitting the lottery... CHA-CHING!"

Remember this one from a while ago, woman had her baby in one of those wheelie things, that you put the baby in and they can propel themselves around with their feet. So OK, the POINT of this thing is that your baby, who can't walk yet, can now move around on their own. That's number one. so this woman leaves the baby unattended. Now I don't have kids but I know that you do NOT leave them just unattended in the kitchen especially when they are in a wheelie move-around-by-themselves device. so that's TWO. Number three, while leaving the baby alone in the kitchen, she left the DOOR TO THE CELLAR WIDE OPEN. Guess what happened? (baby was OK I think, just a bit hurt nothing serious) but of course GUESS WHO GOT SUED. the stroller company was forced to put a warning label on the strollers.

I really wish I was the person in charge of creating the warning labels. I could manufacture them in bulk for every company very cheaply because they would all be the same: "WARNING: DO NOT BUY OR USE THIS PRODUCT IF YOU ARE AN IDIOT"

So anyway, back on track, I want to say again that I do not think that the possiblitly of anti depressants causing suicide should be kept secret or is nonsense and should be forgotten (as I said above, even if it turns out it is not directly related to the medication, just an effect of getting one's energy back because the AD is working---that is STILL something that is important and must be disgused and should be warned about by the doctor to keep an eye on and report anything IMMEDIATELY)

it's just that when the media picks up and runs with this it comes out of context, and this is a great "media" story because of the irony, "hey it turns out the meds they put you on to prevent suicide actuall cause suicide" and most people take that as a "fact" like everyone gets every side effect to everything. This is something that yes, the FDA should be investigating, and yes, doctors primarily have a huge response to inform their patients and warn them about this, and i also believe that news like this should be available so I'm not saying it should be kept out of the media, but when it is presented like a new discovery and like an absolute fact (the implication I believe is that even if this side effect is very rare it is "unavoidable" when in fact the proper focus should be to remain aware of it, monitor it, and make an informed decision as to whether you want to take this med or not (it may scare people even if they are properly informed but at least they can make their decisions with proper info not some headline in a newspaper)

the big problem here is that there is still such a stygma involved with mental illness, and also a huge amount of fear and stygma about medications, along with a lot of false rumors that add to that stygma. Seeking treatment for this is hard. People have no problem coming up with excuses not to seek treatment... they can deal on their own, they know they need help but are afraid their family will find out etc etc we don't need more sensational "news" that can REALLY scare people off. "Hey I'm depressed, should I see a doctor?" "NO! I just read that if you see a doctor they give you pills that cause you to commit suicide"

yes i'm ranting...

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[dexter]

i'm just needing to rant and vent today so please forgive me...

but here is another really good example of how people read things and have no desire to understand or learn the facts, they just want to "react" to the headline.

I own a Segway (one of those cool two wheel self-balancing "scooter-like" things (p.s. the segway community hates when they are refered to as "scooters ) and most people heard on the news that they were recalled a few months ago because of a safety issue. When I ride mine, no one has every seen one before or heard of one before or knows anything about it but EVERYONE knows they were recalled and I therefore should not be riding it anymore.)

Here are the facts: the Segway was designed with an AMAZING amount of safetly features built in (the inventors previous products are mostly in the health field, he invented the heart splint or shunt or whateveryoucallit, a portable kidney dialisys machine, and the one with the most exposure, the wheelchair that balances and can go up and down stair... really cool)

So the Segway he wanted to be ABSOLUTLEY SAFE. EVERY electronic and mechanical system in the device has double redundancy, meaning there are TWO of everything... there are two computers, the motors have two sets of windings, there are two batteries... and the system is designed that even if something should SUDDENLY FAIL the backup system automatically kicks in so that the machine can keep you balanced rather than falling over, it can gently slow down and stop (it does this automatically) and then issue a very noticable "warning" to tell you something is wrong and you should step off. So even if one of the batteries suddenly shorts out it switches that one off and the second one has enough power to operate the machine until you can get off, likewise is an electronic component fails.

The same thing happens when the batteries are drained. As they get low the display flashes red and it begins to beep. If you keep riding it, it will slow down and stop, and then issue the vibrating warning that you can't miss to tell you your batteries are going dead, so get off it now! When you get off the machine shuts off (it has foot sensors so it knows never to shut off while you are standing on it).

When you get one you take a training session just to help you know what the machine is all about and what it can and can't do. One thing they tell you (and it is also in the manual) is that once the batteries drain down and you get the warning and the machine shuts off, do NOT try to start it again and keep riding (you know how if you drain the batteries on a flashlight and shut it off for a while and then turn it back on the bulb will come on again dimly for a few moments).

Well of COURSE some people didn't follow that warning. After the low batttery shutdown they tried restarting it, and you can sometimes go a few yards before it gives you the warning and the shutdown again. Then you can start it again and maybe get a couple more yards before it shuts down. Then do it again and maybe get a few more feet before it shuts down. Well if you keep doing that, DUH eventually the batteries are going to get so drained that they won't even have enough juice to keep the unit powered to stay balance for the warning period. I say again, DUH.

But of course people were doing it anyway and there were reports of a few people falling off and getting hurt. (Injuries are like a skinned knee. I wear a helmet when riding in case I hit a rock or something just as I would do on a bicycle, we are not talking broken bones or stuff here).

So the segway company instead of just reissuing the warning, maybe publishing it more or emailing it or mailing it to all owners, etc, because they are so concerned about safety, they issued a mandatory recall to every owner (I got a letter, an email, and a personal phone call).

Now here's where the facts really get distorted. This recall was not a notice to send the unit back to the factory for "repair" or to be "redesigned"... the recall is a simple SOFTWARE UPGRADE. They changed the software to make it more sensitive to low battery conditions, so it now actually gives you the low battery warning earlier under some conditions and makes it more difficult to try turning it on again and to keep riding after the warning.

The saying goes "if you make something idiot-proof someone will always come along and build a better idiot" and honestly that is the case here... there are so many safety features in this thing and yet some people found a way to still hurt themselves so the company rewrote the software to accomodate this "better" idiot.

Now the recall didn't even involve a return to the factory (although you had that option if you wanted). They set up centers in some key cities where you could walk in during the day over a course of like a week or two weeks or something and they would plug you in and do the software upgrade in a few minutes. They even gave out a small gift to encourage people to come. For people who weren't near the centers or couldn't make it there conveniently they arranged for someone to come to your house and do the software upgrade there. THEY CALLED YOU to schedule the appointment, they really want to make sure there is no chance of anyone getting hurt.

I actually chose to forgo the upgrade. I never try to push the machine that hard so that condition is not an issue for me, and I don't want the more conservative battery warning to lesson the range I can get on the device. There is no safety issue for me as long as I operate it properly (it was hard to forgo the upgrade, the technician actually called me about 5 times asking to schedule an upgrade)

So this as you see was a REALLY MINOR ISSUE, only effected safety of people misuing the device, and even then people who really really pushed this misuse to the extreme, and the company took care of it easily and effectively so it was hardly an issue at all for anyone... just set up 5 minutes at your most convenient time for someone to come and do the upgrade.

But what do I hear now EIGHT MILLION TIMES when I am riding it on the street "HEY! DON'T YOU KNOW THAT THOSE THINGS WERE RECALLED? THEY AREN'T SAFE!"

yikes.

BTW go look up how many recalls are issued on whatever brand of car you are driving each year. Once in a while something big causes a huge public announcement that causes a car to be recalled to the factory for modification... but almost every car has hundreds of minor part recalls during the course of production. These are usually really minor things, they of course do not effect safety, and the change is usually just something implemented on new cars from that point forward unless an owner makes the effort to bring their car in and have that part changes, of course most people wouldn't even know about it if they didn't look. But an equivalent minor thing with the Segway makes headline news because, well, it's news and its newsworthy!"

You know it is not the reporting that bothers me it is the NON reporting that goes to misunderstanding by not putting things in perspective. OK Segway had a recall how many other common products get recalled? Is this something common and usually unnoticed or something truly rare and informative?

OK some there may be some suicides related to some anti-depressant medications. How many suicides are related to depressed people who don't seek treatment at all?

And also it is not at much the media to blame (although I would like to see them show a littl e more responsiblitly) but the people who just want to go along like sheep.

Honeslty, when I first heard about the thing with Prozac (it was not long ago sometime after I started taking it and this caught my eye) my first reaction was to go around the web to find out what this is all about. Not five minutes later I had more info, the possibliyt that it might just be the "increased energy" thing and that it wasn't really something for me to worry about as long as I knew to be aware of it.

I don't think it is as much that people are lazy just that it is so much of a social thing to get on the bandwagon and react, makes you feel part of a group, something to talk about at the water cooler, etc. I think it fulfills a social need.

Geez I'm going on and on today.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[darkeyes]

Kvin, I feel the same way you described here about teens and the mall issue, it is pathetic, I am glad my son doesn't subscribe to all of this, hey, maybe it is one good reason he is an "individual", well adjusted and generally happy, yes?
And maybe our parenting? I do not know but I can't complain, he himself frowns at the teens that just hang out, do not work or go to school, etc. Funny to hear a teen say "why don't they get a life", ha!ha! I just am so thankful my kid is like the way he is.
Getting back to your reply, there is so much truth to all you said, I had to laugh at the SUV thing, people cry about gas consumption, but golly, those things are eating most of our gas (I have a small car, and like them small) also when I hear owners of them cry about the money for gas and how they are guzzlers, I say "why don't you get a more economical car"? They never have an answer that sounds logical ( well most of them) it usually is I like them, my come back is then don't complain, and don't complain when we are on "empty" in this country, ha!ha! Ah, no sense of me whining on, but I loved one reason/explanation you gave here on this issue

BTW I hope you are doing well

DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[darkeyes]

dexter, I love this reply, it is so true, everyone is so "sue" mad it is absolutly disgusting, and the lawyers that defend "idiots" also disgust me, I get so annoyed I just want to blurt out, "Read the warnings, you morons!!!!!"
I mean are the same people that will drive under the gates of a train crossing while the train is coming down the track? ha!ha! Ah, I just had to say my piece, you know me, ha!ha!

I really am enjoying hearing everyone's views on this stuff
Hope you are feeling better

DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[darkeyes]

Boy I never got any "energy" from them, but some helped the depression.
I guess I am one that never gets the stuff from the meds others get, ha!ha!
Just had to laugh about the "energy" thing

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[dexter]

>>(I have a small car, and like them small)

I can "one up" you there... I have an electric car... actually a gas/electric hybrid... operates like a regular car, never plug it in... i've gotten better than 60 mpg on the highway. worst case in bad city traffic 40 mpg. It is fun to drive and I really love it.

Another funny thing about what people say (this doesn't happen to me much but I've heard others say it happens a lot) when they see them riding their Segway, people don't realize they are often using it for an errand of maybe 3 or 5 miles, using it instead of taking their car. They assume they are using it to go down the block instead of walking. so people LOVE to yell "hey your gonna get fat on that thing!" or "are you too lazy to walk?" and a large percentage of the time they yell that from the rolled down window of their SUV and they have a half eaten cheeseburger on their lap.

some people don't think before they yap.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[darkeyes]

That is so funny
dex, I love this, wow, a hybrid car, was it expensive??
I see if people NEED an SUV that is fine, but to just have one to have one, and knowing what a gas crisis we are having, makes me think back to that old name for it, "the me me;s", Plus all the driving I have to do everyday I have seen the drivers of most of them are super aggressive, drive wreckless, while talking forever on their cell, I have almost been "rearended and "sideswiped" numerous amount of times, too many to list
I own a cell, doesn't everyone? I keep mine turned off and use it only along the road or some parking light and that is for emergencies, the chit chat can wait tillI am at home and use the "old" wall phone in the kitchen
But like the old saying goes, "to each his own". Or the other worn, torn sayng, "you go to your church I'll go to mine", gosh, it has been years
Great tp hear from you, keep me laughing, I hope I can make some laugh here too, I use to be a "class clown".

Take care now,
DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[dexter]

It really wasn't expensive, not at all out of line with the other models. It is a civic, it's a four door, and it looks and drives like all the other civics in the line. you wouldn't know there was anything different about it, except for the "hybrid" logo on the back, and while driving if you stop for traffic or a light the engine shuts off until you take your foot off the brake to go again (in the case of the manual which is what i have, the engine comes back on when i shift out of neutral) that is really cool and taht's what people notice when i give them a lift. and of course you notice whenever you check the gas mileage <g>. i haven't taken a long trip in it yet (because of my rollercoaster issues) but i can go 650 miles on one tank of gas. in my old civic, a trip to kennywood (pittsburgh) would require one refill during the trip, but if conditions were just right (no traffic on the highway, wind from behind, etc) i could sometimes make it all the way there without stopping. of course the tank would be dry at that point. with my new car i should be able to make it there on half a tank, and not have to worry about gas during the whole trip except probably to stop one on the way home. and i'd have plenty of time to do that without "panicking" <g>

I agree about SUVs. If i had a billion bucks I would love to have one for the snow. To not have to worry about the local roads or getting to work. my honda, even the old one, does really really well in the snow with the front wheel drive, but it is so low that it can't get over piles of snow. One time i was on the highway, doing fine, and i went to switch lanes and ended up just stuck on the little bit of snow pileup between the lanes. it was so funny, couldn't even rock the car because the wheels weren't even touching the ground. it was like the car was up on blocks <g> luckily i had people with me and the old hatchback was a pretty light car so they were easily able to give me a push off the bump and i was good to go.

-- The world is what we make of it --
-- Dave
-- <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.idexter.com>http://www.idexter.com</A>

[SeptemberMorn]

Dave, I'm with you. Methinks, too, that the media didn't have anything medical to report so they drug out something that would start a panic amongst those of us that take anti-depresants. I don't believe anything I read or hear as far as "news" goes anymore.

Haven't you noticed that one week they're telling you that food you've been eating for years suddenly gives you cancer... then a week or two later, they tell you it wasn't as bad as they thought. Heck! Now they're telling you that coffee is good for you just like they did about milk a few years ago. How about those that are lactose intolerant? Oy Vey! I just figure if it hasn't hurt me so far, it's not going to, just like cigarette smoking. I'm 60 now. Started smoking when I was 13. I still haven't had a heart attack or died from lung cancer. I've been on quite a few antidepresants and none of them made me want to kill myself. I thought they were going to kill me, maybe, with heart palpitations. That's what most of them do to me.

So... I just listen to my body now instead of the FDA or the news.

Hey! That sounds like a good topic for my PetPeeves.com website!

<font color=blue>"Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt" --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

[darkeyes]

Remeber they said "anti-oxidants" were good for us? Then about 1 or 2 years ago Science News and other publications said they aren't good that they actually speed up cancer growth, and now they are all saying that they are good, geesh, would somebody make up their minds already in the field.
Coffee, I've lived on that stuff for years, and over the years they say it is good and then they say it is bad, this goes back and forth, well, I haven't had any problem with the stuff, the only time I went off the stuff was when I was planning on having a child, even before conception, plus other things that are bad during conception, before and after.
Phen-Fen was another thing, I used the stuff years ago, had the heart valve screening and was just fine, they never concentrated on the fact that the obese people that were prescribed it, already had this heart condition, and most likely that is what killed them, the obesity, poor lifestyles, etc.
Phenterimine was the stimulant part, the Fenfluramine (sp?) had originally been used for psychiatric disorders, I think alone, it still is and had very good outcome, with many people with several types of disorders, and it did not keep people speeding like it's partner, phenterimine. Of what I remember it helped any with OCD.
Oh, then another scare, Aspartame (sp?) sure people can be allergic as an infant, that is what the PKU test is when infants are born, with the other tests that are done with bloodwork.
the last biggest thing I heard about this is that it causes depression, huh, I think being overweight is the thing that depresses the users of it, not the product. Ah, I can go on and on with this, and I am sure we all can, right? ha!ha!
I feel at this point with all the contraversy (sp?) in the news and science, we need to research things on our own too and then make the decision for ourselves if we want to take a risk, or if there really is any risks that apply individually to ourselves according to our health and genetic makeup, things that run in our families.
I do not have an answer, but wanted to add my 2 cents.
Again as I mentioned to some of the replies to this post, I find it interesting and even fun, hearing what we all have to say, and even nicer, none of us are in argument over it, that is the greatest part
Gee, anyone else having a topic we can all share views and not get into any snits would be fun, so anyone that has any and kind of knows it will not spark any anger but views and even share anything new about it would be fun and informant.

Thanks

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

[FearsomeAnna]

DE,

I agree - I think they're losing sight of the fact that the originating condition - NOT its treatment - may be the cause of serious consequences. This is not to say that people haven't had bad reactions to medication - God knows I sure have - but for the most part, medications do their job to make us feel better. For instance, I think it's terribly premature to say that ADs cause suicide or that they are strongly correlated with suicide - doesn't anyone remember that depression is also very highly correlated to suicide. In fact, one might say that it is certainly a cause.

Not all drugs are equal, and some may effect people worse than others. However I'd be the first one to step up and say that ADs literally saved my life. I'd take that any day over side effects.

some of it's magic
some of it's tragic
but i had a good life all the way......
~jimmy buffett

[darkeyes]

((((((((((( Anna )))))))))))

and Kudos too !!

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON