[ScientiaOmnisEst]

“Victim” is kind of a dirty word today: victim mentality, victim complex, don’t be a victim…but this thought has been kicking around in my head: “Why the heck not?”

Compared to the Hero that’s supposed to be the mature, non-parasitic counterpart to the victim, being the latter sounds freaking great.
The most obvious difference is responsibility and locus of control. Victims blame external things, while Heroes blame themselves (aka “taking responsibility”). The Hero must be in constant control, not only of their environment, but of themselves. At all times. Anything that goes wrong, the Hero is to blame for it. The Victim can be frustrated and roll with whatever gets thrown at them, but the Hero has to take it head on. The former certainly seems like a path of least resistance, easier to deal with, rather than the constant stress of having to control everything.

Plus, emotions. The Victim can feel, especially those validating moments of self-pity or external-directed frustration; the Hero can’t have any of that, they supposedly don’t need it. The Hero doesn’t get to feel. What the hell goes on in their heads then? An emotionless, don’t-feel-just-deal existence seems rather dull, empty even. Yet it’s supposed to represent maturity.

Where does a hero get their motivation? A Victim has things in life to fight against or overcome or simply endure. They have things that make their lives feel meaningful. It would seem the only thing a Hero can pursue to that same kind of end is various earthly achievements and success, which are nice, but a little hollow, and not too long-lasting. How does the Hero even have an internal life? They have no suffering, no past struggles to define them. Likewise, where does the Hero get their identity? Not from their past experiences, that’s for Victims. Not from their social groups – where then?

Really, between the two, being a Hero, a not-Victim, sounds unbearably, needlessly stressful. Constant self-blame and control, no emotions or nonrational motivation, an extremely narrow identity…the only advantage the Hero’s life seems to have is moral upstanding. Otherwise, why so much encouragement to not be a Victim?

I don't have a desire to be a "hero." I don't like being a victim because that takes away my empowerment, which is important to me.

I don't believe a "hero" and a "victim" are distinct.

I think everyone has the ability to be both. Usually our environment influences which one we'll be.

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Ack, I have a habit of abandoning threads. But I found something that ties into this, talking not about non-victimhood, but self-reliance:

Self-reliance equals adulthood, in politics but also in social and family life. Adulthood is a lonely condition, full of cares and responsibilities. We are not minors. The fantasy life of childhood, with its adorations and superstitions, has been transcended, left behind. Nor are we cowards or weaklings, begging for the protection of powerful parental figures. The burden of every action falls on us, whether at work, in the community, in the political arena, or even in the unmowed lawn. We are now adults — we are no longer free to turn our back on the unpleasantness of life.

The payoff? The payoff is the freedom to engage, and from that freedom flows all the dignity of the human race.

The bit in bold is just something I found particularly disturbing, that maturity requires giving up any kind of dreaming, fantasizing, love, caring, or desires. I'm not sure if the "dignity" of a life of toil is worth that. Or maybe it's just more confirmation that I'm evil.

I was watching a Criminal Minds episode a couple of weeks ago and at some point one of the FBI people gets shot. She has her fellow FBI colleague promise "not to talk about her like a victim". I don't really get that - if you're shot, you're a victim of getting shot. Not talking about her like a victim.. only way I can see you doing that is by saying you shot yourself.

[Onward2wards]

It seems to me, Scientia, you are referring to two equally unhealthy opposites of a spectrum (or almost). I'll have to think about it more.

[Onward2wards]

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

The bit in bold is just something I found particularly disturbing, that maturity requires giving up any kind of dreaming, fantasizing, love, caring, or desires.

I think this touches on the difference between being more experienced and wise, but still having the hopes and dreams and feelings that make us fully human, and simply "getting old before one's time" - e.g. cynicism, low expectations, excessively rigid boundaries, unhealthy emotional suppression, etc. I don't believe that real maturity should ever equal turning into Ebenezer Scrooge. Some people seem to believe it does, and I think they have a psychological problem or two. Too bad that it sometimes gets held up as some paragon of virtue, when in fact it just isn't.

*lightbulb moment* Could it be that what I would call "callous maturity" for lack of a better term, is really a defense mechanism against disappointment, and other psychological distress?

[-jimi-]

People still blame the victim. That is why victim is a dirty word.

For me, being a victim is more neutral than what people make of it. I am a victim of my physical illness. I don't go around pitying myself all day long about it but being a victim and self pity is NOT the same! But my illness affects every aspect of my life and I can't make that any different. People think positive thinking cures everything.... yeah right... It's more learning to cope and knowing my limits.

I'm so tired of people commenting on how I should handle my illness. People are mostly the "don't be a victim" kind. They think if I can't manage as well as healthy people I will infect the world with some kind of black parasite that would eat them all. Also I'm SO TIRED of people suggesting me crap to make me healthy. I don't care about pity or attention, but it is nice to have some true understanding when it is something I cannot do.

People seem not be able to accept someone is a victim and that affects their life. They need to realize everything cannot be fixed and they are not god.

[Gus1234U]

wiktionary's definitions:

victim ‎(plural victims)

1) (original sense) A living creature which is slain and offered as human or animal sacrifice, usually in a religious rite; by extension, the transfigurated body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

2) Anyone who is harmed by another.  

3) An aggrieved or disadvantaged party in a crime (e.g. swindle.)

4) A person who suffers any other injury, loss, or damage as a result of a voluntary undertaking.

5) An unfortunate person who suffers from a disaster or other adverse circumstance.  

6) (narratology) A character who is conquered or manipulated by a villain.
(bold added)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/victim

personally, i have no use for the 'Victim Mentality', preferring to use the Survivor Mentality, regardless of how i got treated by another.

[lizardlady]

Gus, you brought up what I was thinking. I used to attend a support group for women who experienced domestic violence. We learned to call ourselves "survivors."

To me the word "victim" conveys an external locus of control. It places the focus on the person/event that did the harm. It disempowers (is that a word?) the person who was harmed. "Survivor" hands control back to the person who was harmed.

Again, to me, "victim" implies a sense of helplessness. Yes, the world/life/a person might have harmed me, but I am taking control of my life. Does that makes sense?

I never have used that word to describe myself...usually it's used by someone else when I'm expressing my true feelings and they don't understand and think I'm being dramatic.For example, I've been told to "stop being a victim" when I was describing how hurt a certain situation made me feel.

People take that word out of context. I think it should only be used in the technical sense, like "He was the victim of a robbery". To answer your question...it is considered negative because people use it negatively and I don't know why they do. I personally do not believe in tough love. I think if someone is struggling they should be encouraged and supported, they already hate themselves enough and don't need a lecture.

Being a victim is NOT a choice...what is wrong with people....so I really don't know why it is used negatively when it is a matter of a fact.

[-jimi-]

So should I call myself a survivor of an illness that might kill me? Sounds a little weird to me.

Can we call people who were murdered victims at least? Or are they just having a bad attitude?

[SvanThor]

Because in life, everyone is or has been a victim of something. Life is so much better when you choose not to wear the "victim" title. That in itself is a burden. You don't have to go around thinking you're some kind of hero for it either. Just remember that everyone gets hurt in life, everyone at one time or another is the victim of something.

[lizardlady]

Originally Posted by -jimi-

So should I call myself a survivor of an illness that might kill me? Sounds a little weird to me.

Can we call people who were murdered victims at least? Or are they just having a bad attitude?

Jimi, I have a medical condition that makes my life a living hell. I still don't consider myself a "victim" of the condition. No, I'm not going to recover from it. I will deal with it the rest of my life, but I refuse to let it be in control of my life.

Anna, I find it cruel for someone to tell a person who is describing something that happened to them as "playing the victim." Shame on those who said it to you.

[-jimi-]

My illness will control my life. My Hb took a huge dive and when I do things at the moment I run out of breath or my head spins. IDK what you'd do in that situation, just mind over matter and continue the task you wanted to do anyway? It's really quite terrible when your cells scream for oxygen and can't get it. Sometimes I HAVE to do things within a timespan and I end up falling to the ground and vomiting.

I'm quite annoyed at the moment because I have so many things to do and I can just do one or two a day, I have to bounce back and wait until the next thing. I can work my way around symptoms, and I have done that for the last 20 years. I can do more when I feel better and less when I feel worse. I can use tricks to make my body last as long as possible.

Some days I even forget that I'm sick. But I still tire out faster than other people. Sure I can see all the tricks I do as I control the situation. But in reality I don't. I just modify it.

I can focus on the things I CAN do, which I mostly do. But sometimes at my sickest, all demands fall in on me, I can't even do what I need to do, less what I want to do. Those times I get no fun, just work, because the important things will always come first. Then I am definitely not in control. If I was, I would steer my life towards fun and interests. Some days I will think of the things I would like to do but can't. That will never be within my reach.

I don't think I'm just weak or have the wrong attitude. Well, I am probably mentally weaker than most, but I work at MY OWN full mental strength. I can't compare with others because that will just depress me. I have seen people work 60 hours a day and being really, really ill, seen it up close. I have seen true strength. Terry Pratchett wrote several novels while having Alzheimers. Some people are just like that, they have a drive I lack. I don't think I can think hard and be like them.

I'd so like to make money and buy things I'd like, I'd like to travel, many things I'd like to do. I think it is lovely when people still can do everything they did prior to the illness and if you can, good for you.

But a lot of us cannot. It is not admitting total defeat, but it is accepting there are limits and the limits will never go away. For me, I'm still working on acceptance which I think at least for me, is important to reach. If people think acceptance is a bad thing, it is OK, but for me it is crucial and I think I will not survive without it. Even if I cannot find it yet.

[-jimi-]

Sorry for being a thread killer.

[lizardlady]

Jimi, I made a poor choice of words when I said I would not let my illness control my life. I've got to say reading your post above you do NOT sound like a victim to me. You sound like a strong person who has learned there are limits in life. In my book that's NOT a victim. I'm sorry if my previous post upset of offended you.

[-jimi-]

We use the word victim differently. For me it means something happened to someone, that they were not the direct cause of. That something else or someone else was the cause of. My definition ends there. It does not include the negatives (that I believe comes from people blaming the victim or turning a blind eye to terrible things people do and deny). You use the world differently, like something happened to someone then they wallow in it. Just cuz I am curious, what do you call what I call a victim? Do you have another word for it? Like I was victim of burglary while ago. What word would you have used?

[lizardlady]

Originally Posted by -jimi-

We use the word victim differently. For me it means something happened to someone, that they were not the direct cause of. That something else or someone else was the cause of. My definition ends there. It does not include the negatives (that I believe comes from people blaming the victim or turning a blind eye to terrible things people do and deny). You use the world differently, like something happened to someone then they wallow in it. Just cuz I am curious, what do you call what I call a victim? Do you have another word for it? Like I was victim of burglary while ago. What word would you have used?

I'd probably use the word victim.

[Nihil]

Is it necessarily useful to think of oneself as a victim? How useful is it compared to other thoughts? Wouldn't more peaceful thoughts be more useful?

[-jimi-]

If I think I was merely a victim of something, for me that tells me I did not do that to myself, I didn't deserve it, it was out of my control.

I should not blame myself for what happened.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by -jimi-

We use the word victim differently. For me it means something happened to someone, that they were not the direct cause of. That something else or someone else was the cause of. My definition ends there. It does not include the negatives (that I believe comes from people blaming the victim or turning a blind eye to terrible things people do and deny).

I think that people who use the word victim in a way that implies that the victim deserves ill treatment are themselves afraid of their own thoughts of vulnerability, and in order to block those fears, find someone else to blame -- usually the nearby victim, since it is obvious that that victim is vulnerable and can be successfully attacked. All in the service of denying one's own fears.

There is one person currently much in the news who strikes me as a shining example of this process. The times when I can think things through, to believe that this person tries to put down vulnerable people around him only in order to cover his own fears of vulnerability -- then this person becomes much less frightening to me.

People such as this typically have only the dimmest awareness of the psychological mechanisms involved. Thus, I think, they cannot really be relied upon to act in a constructive way when the need arises to actually do anything. Not until they become aware of what is going on inside themselves -- and that attacking them for making others afraid is not constructive either.

[StarBlue]

Good questions - I believe the hero is the inner aspect that has a positive self-image, mended from its fragments or on the mend, thus empowered by feelings of wellness, strength and esteem for self and therefore for others in relationship. Or if presented with a situation that requires assertiveness will be able to reach in to the inner bag of tools and fortify the Self in self-protection and resilience and be able to resolve the conflict in a healthy way - win/win or taking a stand that requires a bit more force if in a no win situation i.e. preservation of life itself.

Whereas the victim is like a tree without roots can and is open and available to every storm, insect, wood-chopper and earthquake to come its way and will even bend lower so the lowliest of attackers can take better aim, all the while believing unconsciously that he/she deserves this, this is payback for whatever, karma etc. Or there may be no awareness at all and one is on automatic in a trance and just going through the motions of yet another episode of pain and trauma because the psyche is in repetitive mode of attempting to correct the original mis-fire that caused this mode of being by recreating the exact same scenario hoping the Self (hero) has already learned some basic tools on Transformation 101.

Hero knows how to transform and rise above negative experiences.
Victim is still in practice mode.

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

“Victim” is kind of a dirty word today: victim mentality, victim complex, don’t be a victim…but this thought has been kicking around in my head: “Why the heck not?”

Compared to the Hero that’s supposed to be the mature, non-parasitic counterpart to the victim, being the latter sounds freaking great.
The most obvious difference is responsibility and locus of control. Victims blame external things, while Heroes blame themselves (aka “taking responsibility”). The Hero must be in constant control, not only of their environment, but of themselves. At all times. Anything that goes wrong, the Hero is to blame for it. The Victim can be frustrated and roll with whatever gets thrown at them, but the Hero has to take it head on. The former certainly seems like a path of least resistance, easier to deal with, rather than the constant stress of having to control everything.

Plus, emotions. The Victim can feel, especially those validating moments of self-pity or external-directed frustration; the Hero can’t have any of that, they supposedly don’t need it. The Hero doesn’t get to feel. What the hell goes on in their heads then? An emotionless, don’t-feel-just-deal existence seems rather dull, empty even. Yet it’s supposed to represent maturity.

Where does a hero get their motivation? A Victim has things in life to fight against or overcome or simply endure. They have things that make their lives feel meaningful. It would seem the only thing a Hero can pursue to that same kind of end is various earthly achievements and success, which are nice, but a little hollow, and not too long-lasting. How does the Hero even have an internal life? They have no suffering, no past struggles to define them. Likewise, where does the Hero get their identity? Not from their past experiences, that’s for Victims. Not from their social groups – where then?

Really, between the two, being a Hero, a not-Victim, sounds unbearably, needlessly stressful. Constant self-blame and control, no emotions or nonrational motivation, an extremely narrow identity…the only advantage the Hero’s life seems to have is moral upstanding. Otherwise, why so much encouragement to not be a Victim?