[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Thanks to this forum, I spent a fair part of yesterday obsessed with Stoicism, and despertaely searching for reasons that could justify not adopting it. Disagreeing with their notion of "virtue", what constitutes it and how to attain it, and its relative value to the rest of life seems like a good start, but I can't stop feeling guilty for how innately disgusted I am with the thought of living such a philosophy, especially the notion of being responsible for one's own pain.

Here's the thing: apparently, CBT, one of the most effective treatments for depression and anxiety, is based on stoicism. To reject one, it seems, requires rejecting the other. As I conversed with some reddit people, there was talk of not "indulging" depression or anxiety, claims that CBT/Stoicism shouldn't lead to shame or guilt but empowerment....and none of it makes any damn sense to me.

Then a thought hit. A little fictional vision, like something out of a book or a movie: "Look at those stupid humans, willing to let or even make themselves suffer just to feel like their pathetic lives have meaning."

Because I know, and I acknowledged, that if I stopped being depressed, worried, self-loathing, perfectionistic, condemning, desperate - there wouldn't be anything left. I'd just be empty and hollow, and I'd have no self and nothing to live for. So in some ways, I want to suffer. It's worth it to me, for reasons I can't explain. I want to keep my dysfunction because it's what makes me myself, gives me an identity and an existence. I can't imagine myself any other way right now. True, I wasn't like this in the past, but things changed. Thoughts changed, and I'm not the same person I was at all. To go back would be to deny my life up to this point, to force change would be psychological suicide.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this, or what good it will do. Maybe it's just to purge the guilt.

[Booh]

For your contemplation:

"The way in which a man accepts his fate and all the suffering it entails, the way in which he takes up his cross, gives him ample opportunity - even under the most difficult circumstances - to add a deeper meaning to his life. It may remain brave, dignified and unselfish. Or in the bitter fight for self preservation he may forget his human dignity and become no more than an animal." --Viktor E. Frankl

[bugbear83]

Just writing to let you know I read this and I feel you. I get the same line of thoughts going from time to time, and try hard not to think about it.

On a side note, those reddit people saying not to "indulge" depression and anxiety sound like people who have never truly experienced the issues in question. :T Always irks me when people say those types of things.

[Molinit]

Completely "unprofessional" opinion, but your posts indicate you spend a great deal of the day thinking about you/your issues.

How is your day structured? Is there work or volunteerism to get you out of yourself? If not, that's the big problem. Unless you're a complete sociopath or narcissist, engaging in some form of rewarding activity (work for money to do things you enjoy or volunteering to make someone else's life better) not only eats up the day but gets you out of your own navel-gazing.

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by Molinit

Completely "unprofessional" opinion, but your posts indicate you spend a great deal of the day thinking about you/your issues.

How is your day structured? Is there work or volunteerism to get you out of yourself? If not, that's the big problem. Unless you're a complete sociopath or narcissist, engaging in some form of rewarding activity (work for money to do things you enjoy or volunteering to make someone else's life better) not only eats up the day but gets you out of your own navel-gazing.

I work full-time. It's better than being unemployed, but I can't say I enjoy it or that it's fulfilling in any way.

True, my self-analysis was much worse when I was unemployed, but my job is pretty mindless and I can easily think about random stuff while I work. And yes, I will sneak online and read, and find stuff to think about. That's actually what happened yesterday. I swear, I almost broke my mouse twice from squeezing it in anger.

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Creeping around the Stoicism reddit again, stressing myself out. There are two ways to deal with problems there: fix it or put up and shut up. Everyone says it's basically a cure for depression, anxiety, even lifelong stuff. I don't believe them. Not at all.

More and more I disagree with their notion of what constitutes good character.

It's impossible to think about fixing anything about myself without wanting to rip my own throat out in rage at what a failure I am. A person is supposed to have perfect control over their mind and not care what happens to them - it just doesn't make sense. And since this is also the basis of a common therapeutic technique, that means if I start therapy soon, I'm going to get this thrown at me even more. It's impossible. And its not worth it. There's nothing "medicinal" about this approach (to quote an article), if anything it's death awaiting.

Another person talked about "don't focus on disconnecting from the outside, but on connecting to the inside". Well, I don't have anything inside. So I need external things or I'll die. It's like telling someone who's blind to just open their eyes, then they'll be able to see. Doesn't work like that. There has to be another way to become perfect. Something else....

[Out There]

I fear the fire burning below - its gonna trick you , swallow you whole. Maybe not , if you walk into it it may make you whole. What you're looking for is within and inside you - LOOK WITHIN..... or go without. You have been suffering for a long time. I have said before I believe you would benefit from an Existential therapist. And would you continue to post if you didn't want to get better?

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by Out There

I fear the fire burning below - its gonna trick you , swallow you whole.

They're lines from a song - I personally always felt they described my more violent emotions and self-harm tendencies.

Maybe not , if you walk into it it may make you whole. What you're looking for is within and inside you - LOOK WITHIN..... or go without. You have been suffering for a long time. I have said before I believe you would benefit from an Existential therapist. And would you continue to post if you didn't want to get better?

I don't know. I don't know what I want. I mentioned I don't think there's anything inside - anymore? Or maybe it was never there.

[Molinit]

Then please try volunteer work doing something for someone else and making their life better. Your work isn't challenging or rewarding. Other than money it's not benefiting you as far as stopping this obsession with yourself.

Or are you taking medication? If not, try that.

Walking around like a shell of a person can't be enjoyable.

[Out There]

I know it's lyrics from a song - you use it as a signature and there's always a reason we do things. I understand that you don't feel there is anything inside you. There is a story that has variations in all cultures but goes something like this. The " Gods " have a treasure that they want to hide from the humans because the humans will misuse it , so they gather the animals to a meeting to decide what to do. The Eagle says he'll fly it to the moon - no the humans will go to the moon and find it. The Whale says he'll take it to the bottom of the ocean - no , the humans will go there and find it. Then the wise Turtle says hide it inside the humans because it's the last place they'll look. That's where the treasure is but we go the enormous lengths not to look at ourselves and inside ourselves. We try to satisfy the emptiness we feel inside with external things - if I have this car , nose job etc I will be happy , but it doesn't work and just becomes an endless quest UNTIL we look within. I have not seen the film " Inside Out " but I know many people have gained much by watching it.

[(JD)]

Ok I just disagree.

Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy founded in Athens by Zeno of Citium in the early 3rd century BC. The Stoics taught that destructive emotions resulted from errors in judgment, and that a sage, or person of "moral and intellectual perfection", would not suffer such emotions.

CBT offers a way to think that is healthy. It doesn't judge nor condemn you.

Modern (and I mean RECENT) neurobiology has proven that our thoughts are not ethereal entities but are actual physical elements within the brain...forming proteins that look very much like trees.

If you "dwell" upon toxic thoughts, upon the negatives in your life and body, then your brain (which has NO opinion of it's own and only receives directions from you through your thoughts) will create the chemicals to make sure these bad things occur.

If you "dwell" upon the positive, then the brain follows suit and strengthens this attitude.

Either way, you create "trees" within your brain (actual tree-like formations that science can now "see").

You can create healthy trees by giving yourself good thoughts...and countering each negative, bad, toxic, thought that enters your mind, so that the brain can begin to destroy that toxic tree.

Mind over matter was never so true!

You can read more about this at Dr Caroline Leaf's website.

CBT is a secular way to help you stop the toxic thinking and begin the healthy thinking.

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Originally Posted by (JD)

Ok I just disagree.


CBT offers a way to think that is healthy. It doesn't judge nor condemn you.

Modern (and I mean RECENT) neurobiology has proven that our thoughts are not ethereal entities but are actual physical elements within the brain...forming proteins that look very much like trees.

If you "dwell" upon toxic thoughts, upon the negatives in your life and body, then your brain (which has NO opinion of it's own and only receives directions from you through your thoughts) will create the chemicals to make sure these bad things occur.

If you "dwell" upon the positive, then the brain follows suit and strengthens this attitude.

Either way, you create "trees" within your brain (actual tree-like formations that science can now "see").

You can create healthy trees by giving yourself good thoughts...and countering each negative, bad, toxic, thought that enters your mind, so that the brain can begin to destroy that toxic tree.

Mind over matter was never so true!

You can read more about this at Dr Caroline Leaf's website.

CBT is a secular way to help you stop the toxic thinking and begin the healthy thinking.

See, people say it will lead to healthy thinking - whether we're talking therapy or philosophy. But I can't see it, or at least not the benefits. If I'm not thinking my "toxic" thoughts, what will I think?

And while none of it may do any explicit condemning, the way I understand things, there's implicit condemnation. I'm not sure I can escape that.

I honestly don't know what else to do without frequent self-obsession. Sure, it causes me pain, but I can barely remember how I was before. It almost feels wrong to even consider not being this way anymore.

[Takeshi]

Originally Posted by ScientiaOmnisEst

Because I know, and I acknowledged, that if I stopped being depressed, worried, self-loathing, perfectionistic, condemning, desperate - there wouldn't be anything left. I'd just be empty and hollow, and I'd have no self and nothing to live for. So in some ways, I want to suffer. It's worth it to me, for reasons I can't explain. I want to keep my dysfunction because it's what makes me myself, gives me an identity and an existence. I can't imagine myself any other way right now. True, I wasn't like this in the past, but things changed. Thoughts changed, and I'm not the same person I was at all. To go back would be to deny my life up to this point, to force change would be psychological suicide.

I'm not sure why I'm writing this, or what good it will do. Maybe it's just to purge the guilt.

Seasoned enough, I'll take it. Not savory enough though. Keep stiring the cauldron, please talk about the spells too if that's what you're into, a product of weirdism! I love what you write, I can't have enough of that.

[ScientiaOmnisEst]

Heh. I was just back on the stoicism reddit this morning, after some hardcore self-chastising for being a total mental and emotional wreck since yesterday. It's wrong and bad to react the way I do, to be the way I am, so people say, but I don't know if I could function any other way. Nothing else makes sense.

^I just saw the definition of "weirdism" as a kind of unique perfectionism. That's dead on. And I don't know if I love it or hate it. It could destroy me or make something great of me, but I'm supposed to give it up. Nothing is right, it seems. In my more frantic moments I start to think the whole world is evil, that's why I can't escape.

Maybe there actually is something wrong with my physical brain.