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Yaowen
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Default Jul 20, 2022 at 05:16 PM
  #1
A lot of times I am quick to assume malice as the motivation for actions in myself or others when that is perhaps based on an impoverished understanding of human nature.

Many times I don't see things clearly because I lack deep insight into things. And the problem with insight is often that it cannot be forced. Just because I have need of it at a certain time and place does not mean I can just force it to occur. Just because I want that tomato to be ready eat doesn't mean I can force it to ripen on my own timetable.

Sometimes what I regard as malice is sometimes just ignorance. Person A needs certain information that he or she lacks at the moment. Or perhaps person A has the information but has not matured enough to integrate it into their life at a sufficiently deep and helpful level.

Perhaps I need to see freedom of will as not just an all-or-nothing proposition. Perhaps there is a range of values in freedom of will. I am not totally determined by things but neither do I have the infinite knowledge and freedom of an Infinite Being.

Perhaps I can exercise my freedom of will in actions without always exercising that freedom fully?

How often do I sit down and engage in a thorough deliberation process before acting?

How often is the "full" exercise of my freedom blocked by obstacles I see or do not see? Are strong emotions hindering not my freedom perhaps, but perhaps the full exercise of it. Is ignorance hindering me more than I would like to admit?

Are habits of mine, even habits acquired innocently blocking the full exercise of my freedom of choice? How about fears I am aware of and fears I am unaware of? Hidden or not so hidden desires?

Is the idea of coercion too narrowly construed? Are not certain psychological factors coercive in a sense. Perhaps they do not prevent my action from being free but perhaps they prevent my action from being fully free?

Is it malice that is the determining factor of an action or temporary powerlessness to do the good that I desire or the bad that I seek to avoid?

Is moral maturity less like an "on" and "off" switch and more like a ripening process? The tomato isn't ripe until it is. One cannot always force maturity any more than one can force insight.

Do I sometimes have the facts in mind but lack that "aha!' moment when they all come together in an sufficiently compelling insight?

Many factors go into a decision process and not just freedom of will. How often do I will something with all my heart, mind, being and strength without being influenced by anything, without being affected by my past, my situation, my circumstances?

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think I should "assume" malice in the absence of evidence? Even the law considers that a person can be responsible for something without being fully responsible. Is this moral insight or a cop out?

If I cannot see the full depth of myself how can I reach full understanding of another person to the point that I can make final pronouncements about that person like "ok, that person is good or ok, that person is just bad?"

Lacking infinite knowledge can I ever set myself up as a final judge of another person in the sense of saying: "ok, I know enough to not only say that this action was bad but that this person is totally and irredeemably bad?"

In the movie, "The Elephant Man" a physician in the movie after failing to achieve the results he desired and after failing to anticipate all the consequences of his actions . . . he asks himself . . . "am I a good person or a bad person?"

We don't usually like our bad qualities and often try to shift responsibility for them to outside forces. As a depressed person I am certainly more likely to see extenuating circumstances in the behavior of others while being mercilessly critical of my own behaviors?

When is seeing complexity and depth a virtue and not just a cop out? And are there not reasons to not just assume that an attitude is a cop out because of a flaw in character and pure malice? Perhaps the phenomena of "cop outs" are also complex.

Or perhaps I am just wrong about these things? Can anyone identify with this?
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Default Jul 20, 2022 at 05:33 PM
  #2
Thanks @Yaowen, I do identify with what you have said.

I agree that it is better not to assume malice, but ignorance. I personally have had to deal with a lot of ignorant people lately, and I do think it was how they were raised. They do not know better. I do try to educate when I can, but it's a daunting task.
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Default Jul 21, 2022 at 06:05 PM
  #3
Great insight!!!!

I struggled with this in my marriage. He did so many things that hurt our marriage I thought with so much it had to be intentional. By the end it didn't matter whether it was intentional or not, I HAD ENOUGH. After I left those behaviors continued so I realized it had to be his own inability & not intentional malice.

I never believed in judging anyone as completely evil/bad because I always saw some redeeming factors in everyone.....but at the same time, certain behaviors do determine whether or not I will allow someone into my close inner friendship. I can be friendly without being good close friends & their behaviors don't have impact on me then.

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Default Jul 21, 2022 at 07:29 PM
  #4
tbh i find it hard to not assume malice, when i get hurt by someone, i take it personally and internalise it
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Default Jul 21, 2022 at 10:30 PM
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Default Jul 22, 2022 at 03:12 AM
  #6
Personally I go with my gut when things happens in understanding things. Because when I rationalize too much I forget to ,take my feelings into account and to address them properly. But in response to the "perpetrator", I try to act with compassion and I simplify things by thinking the nastier persons are those who are hurting the most.
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Default Jul 22, 2022 at 03:31 AM
  #7
I meant I go with my gut when I am trying to understand events, sorry
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Default Jul 22, 2022 at 05:41 AM
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Default Jul 22, 2022 at 03:11 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by willowtigger View Post
tbh i find it hard to not assume malice, when i get hurt by someone, i take it personally and internalise it
idk if i even made sense, i might of made internalise up as a word idk
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Default Jul 22, 2022 at 03:18 PM
  #10
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Originally Posted by willowtigger View Post
tbh i find it hard to not assume malice, when i get hurt by someone, i take it personally and internalise it
Makes perfect sense. The thing is that this kind of thinking creates an environment where people can feel like they have to walk on egg shells around you for fear you may take anything they say the wrong way. Makes relationships difficult

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Default Jul 22, 2022 at 06:14 PM
  #11
This is challenging for me being on the autism spectrum (undiagnosed but I'm pretty sure). I don't say things to intentionally hurt people, but I have trouble with social cues and am very direct. I like when people are direct with me, but a lot of neurotypical people (women especially) find me very rude and sometimes intentionally cruel. I have lost many friendships because of this.
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Default Jul 23, 2022 at 08:36 AM
  #12
Great insights! You are wise, I think. I would only worry when you stop questioning.

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Default Jul 24, 2022 at 05:08 AM
  #13
I completely agree with the above. I think it would be time to worry if you stop questioning.

I wonder if a few people who did not know me but who were very rude - and never changed that rudeness and judgmental attitude - were in fact on the autism spectrum. I think probably not. I think my gut is usually (not always) accurate as to who actually is malicious. I don't think anyone is only evil although some seem to have impoverished black and white thinking and project that and other ''flaws'' onto someone they don't even know. I have been on a few other places online and have seen this happening to others too. It also happened in the ''family'' of origin.

That ''family'' of origin were relentless in their abuse towards me.

(not about anyone on msf)

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Default Jul 24, 2022 at 05:50 AM
  #14
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Originally Posted by eskielover View Post


Makes perfect sense. The thing is that this kind of thinking creates an environment where people can feel like they have to walk on egg shells around you for fear you may take anything they say the wrong way. Makes relationships difficult
I don't want people to walk on eggshells around me
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Default Jul 24, 2022 at 05:59 AM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Yaowen View Post
A lot of times I am quick to assume malice as the motivation for actions in myself or others when that is perhaps based on an impoverished understanding of human nature.

Many times I don't see things clearly because I lack deep insight into things. And the problem with insight is often that it cannot be forced. Just because I have need of it at a certain time and place does not mean I can just force it to occur. Just because I want that tomato to be ready eat doesn't mean I can force it to ripen on my own timetable.

Sometimes what I regard as malice is sometimes just ignorance. Person A needs certain information that he or she lacks at the moment. Or perhaps person A has the information but has not matured enough to integrate it into their life at a sufficiently deep and helpful level.

Perhaps I need to see freedom of will as not just an all-or-nothing proposition. Perhaps there is a range of values in freedom of will. I am not totally determined by things but neither do I have the infinite knowledge and freedom of an Infinite Being.

Perhaps I can exercise my freedom of will in actions without always exercising that freedom fully?

How often do I sit down and engage in a thorough deliberation process before acting?

How often is the "full" exercise of my freedom blocked by obstacles I see or do not see? Are strong emotions hindering not my freedom perhaps, but perhaps the full exercise of it. Is ignorance hindering me more than I would like to admit?

Are habits of mine, even habits acquired innocently blocking the full exercise of my freedom of choice? How about fears I am aware of and fears I am unaware of? Hidden or not so hidden desires?

Is the idea of coercion too narrowly construed? Are not certain psychological factors coercive in a sense. Perhaps they do not prevent my action from being free but perhaps they prevent my action from being fully free?

Is it malice that is the determining factor of an action or temporary powerlessness to do the good that I desire or the bad that I seek to avoid?

Is moral maturity less like an "on" and "off" switch and more like a ripening process? The tomato isn't ripe until it is. One cannot always force maturity any more than one can force insight.

Do I sometimes have the facts in mind but lack that "aha!' moment when they all come together in an sufficiently compelling insight?

Many factors go into a decision process and not just freedom of will. How often do I will something with all my heart, mind, being and strength without being influenced by anything, without being affected by my past, my situation, my circumstances?

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think I should "assume" malice in the absence of evidence? Even the law considers that a person can be responsible for something without being fully responsible. Is this moral insight or a cop out?

If I cannot see the full depth of myself how can I reach full understanding of another person to the point that I can make final pronouncements about that person like "ok, that person is good or ok, that person is just bad?"

Lacking infinite knowledge can I ever set myself up as a final judge of another person in the sense of saying: "ok, I know enough to not only say that this action was bad but that this person is totally and irredeemably bad?"

In the movie, "The Elephant Man" a physician in the movie after failing to achieve the results he desired and after failing to anticipate all the consequences of his actions . . . he asks himself . . . "am I a good person or a bad person?"

We don't usually like our bad qualities and often try to shift responsibility for them to outside forces. As a depressed person I am certainly more likely to see extenuating circumstances in the behavior of others while being mercilessly critical of my own behaviors?

When is seeing complexity and depth a virtue and not just a cop out? And are there not reasons to not just assume that an attitude is a cop out because of a flaw in character and pure malice? Perhaps the phenomena of "cop outs" are also complex.

Or perhaps I am just wrong about these things? Can anyone identify with this?
I like your way of thinking. I mean it's kind of an unanswerwable question to some extent. Because if we attribute characteristics to people such as, "they just have a character flaw," then there's no more thinking we can really do about this person (hypothetically). We have reached the end of the chain, so to speak.

But if we continue along the path of thinking and examining belief systems and how a person was raised, etc., etc., until we reach some foundational truth about people, then maybe it might be easier to think about people in a more positive light.

That, I think is responsible for a lot of social change. I mean, people didn't start by examining their core beliefs, (at least I think).

They started by just practicing the things that they were taught. And many still do that to this day. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. In a sense, we're just carrying on the behaviors taught to us.

But I think if we really want to effect social change, or any type of change, we must examine our inner core beliefs about things. It can lead us to some very unpopular opinions about things, or just more true beliefs in general, but I don't much find a whole lot of gain in having others approve of what I believe, these days at least. And it's not like I believe in crazy things, either. I just like having true beliefs ("true" is not meant to mean I'm right about everything here). Anyway, maybe that's some food for thought.

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Default Jul 24, 2022 at 08:11 AM
  #16
Does anyone on here feel like you have to walk on eggshells around me?
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Default Jul 24, 2022 at 08:18 AM
  #17
I learned to withdraw and shut down if anyone was being nasty, I don't lash out at others cause I learned willowtigger is a dirty scum bag and deserves to be bullied
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Default Jul 24, 2022 at 11:28 AM
  #18
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I learned to withdraw and shut down if anyone was being nasty, I don't lash out at others cause I learned willowtigger is a dirty scum bag and deserves to be bullied
Hey willowtigger,

I learnt those same things, that I deserved to be bullied and even that I was ''dirty''. Who taught those lessons? Someone, sometimes several/many people in our childhood.

The ''good'' thing is, those ''lessons'' are lies from toxic, poisonous people who didn't ''deserve'' to be teachers, parents, etc....

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Default Jul 24, 2022 at 11:30 AM
  #19
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Does anyone on here feel like you have to walk on eggshells around me?
I don't feel that way.

Have you read the book ''stop walking on eggshells''?

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Default Jul 24, 2022 at 03:08 PM
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I don't feel that way.

Have you read the book ''stop walking on eggshells''?
i'm not familiar with the book?
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