[Ardose]

I know this guy who seems to be every bit the description of someone with narcissistic social disorder. He can't stay out of trouble and just lost job number 34 after 3 days and he is only 29 years old. He is selfish and seems completely unaware of how his behavior effects everyone around him. I don't think he even understands what friendship is. He just sees others as opportunities to get money and things. He has rage problems and often behaves more like a spoiled adolescent than an adult. His behavior has gotten him involved in drugs and has nearly gotten him killed. He sucks the life out of anybody who feels a little sympathy for him. To get to know him is to want to wring his neck.

I feel like there has to be some way of fixing this messed up person who continues to brings grief into every life he touches and seems to have no remorse what so ever. He has mostly committed misdemeanors. Lots of them. So far. He as angered drug dealers and frankly, I think his days are numbered if something doesn't change.

I have heard that there are therapies to impart some form of self realization to people who seem to be completely out of touch. I was wondering if anybody knew more details about it. Can a sociopath be taught to think before he acts? Is it true empathy or some kind of negative association of behavior to trauma? I would like to know if this person has any hope of becoming a normal part of society or if he just going to end up locked up or worse.

[IndieVisible]

There is a divide and debate on this, almost everyone agrees empathy is learned during the younger years through bonding and after 12 is next to impossible. However there have been studies in and out of prison with psychopaths that seem to indicated if bonding is accomplished that opens the door for empathy. But again this is not agreed on. This makes a great topic to research if you want! Lot's of thoughts on this.

[archipelago]

There is a difference between narcissism and anti-social. A narcissist usually has a wounded self beneath the outside appearance and actions. So finding a way in to that would make a difference, but I think only a skilled therapist would be able to do it. And someone who doesn't seem to care is not going to go for treatment.

I believe empathy can be learned, but it takes something to happen. Usually something big and breaking. Contrary to what is said, an anti-social person does feel empathy, but they exploit it to their own uses and needs. So it is not the usual sense of empathy. They are in fact very adroit at empathy because it helps them manipulate people. To turn this around may be almost impossible since the consequences don't seem to matter. Tough one.

[Elektra_]

anti-social person frequently lacks of empathy. what they do is to observe others and conning. i dont believe it can be learned. it can be replicated... isnt real empathy.

You can't really help somebody that doesn't want to be helped. I don't know about child development. We really don't know what his diagnosis really would be.

That said, Brenė Brown is the person to check out. She's been researching this stuff for 20 years. There is a correlation between shame (which separates us) and empathy (which connects us). Shame is a basic emotion. If his behavior is due to a large amount of shame I don't think sociopath really works as a diag. And perhaps that means there is hope that he could learn empathy. Now, I am not equipped to give anymore than personal thoughts. Dr Brown has books and there are videos. She also has a cert program for therapists and a directory on her website. I did a weekend intensive. There also 6 week long ones. I highly recommend it for anyone actually.

[IndieVisible]

Another really strong connect with empathy is bonding. Usually this ability develops in the first 11 years of our life. Without it, there can be no empathy, at least not affective empathy, only cognitive empathy which is simply "understanding" what it is without actually feeling it. This is why so many people with out any real empathy can do so well "faking" it. Many don't even know they are faking it. Empathy consists of two elements that must both be present. Affective and Cognitive empathy. It's been widely accepted that sociopaths lack affective empathy however there has been some recent studies done mostly with people in jail, that displayed evidence of real empathy. The reason is not known. Some believe it was the "bonding" and some deny this and suggest that there may actually be sub categories of sociopaths.

You can't teach empathy, it develops naturally, and doctors are pretty sure it is based on bonding. Does this mean that any one can "learn" empathy? Nope. It's not learned. It either happens or it doesn't.

This is definitely a very interesting topic!

You can't teach empathy, it develops naturally, and doctors are pretty sure it is based on bonding. Does this mean that any one can "learn" empathy? Nope. It's not learned. It either happens or it doesn't.

I find that really dire. Are there people that are incapable of learning to be empathic even if they want it? Possibly. I haven't spent a lot of time studying this so I can't be sure. I suspect yes. (Let me introduce you to my father) Connection is so important to humans that I like to believe this rare at best. I have one true blue experience with an undeniable sociopath and I am pretty sure she had no desire to be empathic. Everything she did including drinking when she did was geared towards manipulation. Abusing drugs doesn't really say sociopath to me. It says he's trying to bury something. But again, I am definitely not an expert and there isn't enough information here anyway.

Back to the point... To say that you have or you don't isn't helpful. It's that same cop out as creativity...either you can make art or you can't. You can learn to be more empathic and there are lots of resources for that. Whatever flavor you like. Is even go so far and say it is a life long skill. Somebody that doesn't display empathic behavior to us is not necessarily someone who can't learn it or has no slice of empathy. If you experience emotion I bet you can experience empathy. Saying it can't be learned.... Well, we might as well give up on race relations altogether because hardly any of us grew up with that skill ingrained.

[-jimi-]

I don't believe empathy needs to be learned. You can have other motivators. The problem with psychopathy is not just lack of empathy but impulsiveness and fearlessness. If you simply cannot focus and delay gratification you will have a problem acting in a way that is good for others and even yourself. If you don't have normal arousal, it takes more to make you feel, punishment will not keep you out of trouble.

I still think it is easier to learn something that is self serving because you are more motivated. Impulse control can be learned to some extent. Staying out of trouble and getting to keep what you earned can probably be stronger motivators especially as you age and don't have the same energy to live an endless loop of conning and spending or whatever your problem is.

Trying to awaken empathy... nope I don't believe in that.

[archipelago]

Empathy and compassion can be learned. I have seen it as a Buddhist. Introduce prisoners to meditation practice and they change. Perhaps they had some to begin with and the practice was really an "unlearning." Still I have seen profound changes in people. There are studies on compassion and altruism in connection with meditation. There is also a sense that as social primates we are hard-wired for these things so I'm not sure I agree that it is impossible after a certain developmental stage.

[-jimi-]

I bet some can. But I still think we're different. I don't think we're perfect beings deep down. Some flaws can be fixed in some people in some people not.

[Ardose]

You have all offered some very incitefull commentary about the subject. I know that the person of concern was raised in a very difficult environment. Mother is an alcoholic. The father, with whom the subject had the closest bond, seemed to be pretty neglectful also. He was a smoker and a drinker and died at a fairly early age. That seemed to have a profound effect on this person. The subject, as a child, was even sexually abused by a relative. I have met much of the family and they all seem to lack good social judgement and aren't all that closely bonded.

I think it was after his father died that the subject turned to doing hard drugs including heroin. Many of his family members and even he laments that he was a different person before a doctor got him addicted to pain killers which lead to heroin. He claims to have been substantially employed and out of debt. Then everything went spiraling out of control. I think he had more control of his personality issues then. But, he still had frequent encounters with the law and often got into skirmishes with people because of his poor anger control.

As far as I can tell, he is free of heroin now. But, it did alter him and left him more out of control than ever. His involvement with the drug got him into a lot of trouble to the point of being assaulted and having his life threatened. The encounters he had with suppliers still come back to haunt him at times. It has come very close to endangering his girlfriend and her children. (She just doesn't know it.) Some of the people he was involved with were known for drive by shootings and the subject's name was working its way up on their list of priorities. I think (I HOPE) we got that issued taken care of. But, with this guy, who knows what lies in wait.

He got caught shoplifting a couple weeks ago and having just lost another job after only three days and on the brink of losing his drivers license for five years for numerous traffic violations, the subject is now somewhat earnest in getting help to change his ways. He has an appointment with a counselor at a public mental health agency in a couple of days for intake and he wants me to be his advocate. I want to make sure that this agency does more than just throw some pills his way like they seem to do with many of their patients. I just wonder if a public mental health agency can even address problems of this nature. This may be the last chance this person has to get help. Otherwise, I think he will end up in prison or dead. There has got to be some way to reintegrate him into a productive lifestyle.

[hamster-bamster]

I think that if you are trying to help, the first priority is to ensure the safety of his gf and her children, so that they don't become collateral damage.

[IndieVisible]

Originally Posted by Michanne

I find that really dire. Are there people that are incapable of learning to be empathic even if they want it? Possibly. I haven't spent a lot of time studying this so I can't be sure. I suspect yes. (Let me introduce you to my father) Connection is so important to humans that I like to believe this rare at best. I have one true blue experience with an undeniable sociopath and I am pretty sure she had no desire to be empathic. Everything she did including drinking when she did was geared towards manipulation. Abusing drugs doesn't really say sociopath to me. It says he's trying to bury something. But again, I am definitely not an expert and there isn't enough information here anyway.

Back to the point... To say that you have or you don't isn't helpful. It's that same cop out as creativity...either you can make art or you can't. You can learn to be more empathic and there are lots of resources for that. Whatever flavor you like. Is even go so far and say it is a life long skill. Somebody that doesn't display empathic behavior to us is not necessarily someone who can't learn it or has no slice of empathy. If you experience emotion I bet you can experience empathy. Saying it can't be learned.... Well, we might as well give up on race relations altogether because hardly any of us grew up with that skill ingrained.

Short answer, yes. there are people that never learn empathy. But it's not so black and white as the meaning of empathy is two fold.

Cognitive Empathy : understanding how and why that person feels the way they do. While this is not actually empathy, you would be surprised how many people are only capable of this.

Affective Empathy : able to feel the way the other person feels, know how they feel because you can feel their pain.

many people go thru their whole lives with only cognitive ability and not know there is a problem. Others are more of one then the other and there are even some with only affective and no cognitive.

In order to achieve affective empathy, one must be able to bond with others. If there is bonding, then affective becomes possible.

These are not my opinions, but what professionals and "experts" believe. Where there is debate is who can do what.

It's pretty much a given that most ASD folks and NPD folks can only do cognitive empathy and have little or no affective empathy. Then there are some borderlines for example, that only has affective and no cognitive, and some with only cognitive and no affective.

There is no way to determine who has what or what the break up is. For example, person can only have cognitive but be able to simulate how the person feels thru reasoning and be mistaken for actual affective empathy.

Another thing everyone seems to agree on is no one has the last word on this

I have done a lot of work with Brenė Brown's material. I even took a weekend intensive which really had an impact. I know she believes you can learn to be empathic. I am not sure what her opinion would be on cognitive vs affective. If you are correct it really isn't the core of her target audience and research anyway. People that are drawn to her work experience shame. She is considered a shame research. According to her philosophy empathy is the antidote to shame. Shame is an emotion that everybody experiences. Every emotion has a purpose and shame's purpose is to drive people towards connection.

Putting it all together... If you are both right then it would stand to reason that a person that cannot empathize cannot feel shame either. Maybe shame comes first then empathy is learned because empathy is really a skill not an emotion.

Brenė may not have the last word on this but her ideas really resonate with me. They certainly help me to be a better person at least I hope. On an individual basis that is all that really matters, right?

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[IndieVisible]

It's one of the most interesting topics to study.

I am not a professional and far from a expert. I rely mostly on others work and studies. IMHO I think if a person can bond with another person, that is the key.

Shame and guilt are interesting as well however what causes the shame and guilt is even more important. The thing that bothers me most about this topic is the more you read on it the more the waters get muddied in my opinion. I would think shame and guilt was a sign to be on the right track. But a sociopath can be ashamed he got caught and not ashamed of what he did. Guilt is undetectable, only the person feeling it knows. I would say if you can see a person feels guilty there is hope. But many can just hide their guilt so well that it becomes deception.

I can't think of a more interesting study in Mental Health then this topic!

It seems some dogs can feel shame and guilt too! How does one prove that?

Well in brene' research she found shame and guilt to be different. Guilt is when you feel bad about something you did. Shame is when you feel bad about yourself.

Guilt:
I feel guilty because I didn't study for the test and I got a d.

Shame:
I got a d on the test. I am so stupid because I didn't study.

Guilt would drive you to study on the next test. Shame would cause your self esteem to suffer. You might develop a belief that you can't achieve in school and should drop out.

It is an interesting topic! I definitely recommend her book daring greatly. Most of her books target women but that one is for anybody.

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[possum220]

The question is can empathy be learned?

Does a person want to learn? Then maybe they can learn. There is a wealth of information on all kind of emotions.

Does the person have the capacity to learn? Some people do not have the capacity to learn due to hard wiring. They will never have that desire. They will never have the ability.