[Redsoft]

I'm looking for advice regarding some at-home training techniques. I'm at my wits' end! These dogs are driving me nutttts. Please help!

The situation is that I live with my in-laws, so I must start by saying these dogs aren't "mine" - I just live with them. I'm not responsible for feeding or grooming them, but I'm the one that's around them during the day, let them out and in, make sure all's well. You know - they're the family dogs.

These dogs have really sweet and kind personalities, but I pretty much can't stand them as individuals. They're lucky I love animals. :P They are extremely submissive, dependent, but also ridiculously excitable. They've also the tendency to bark way too much, which is another thing I stay aware of during the day. All of this is true of both, but one is definitely more submissive and excitable by faaar. As for attachment/separation, they're alright when people leave and are totally gone, but if my in-laws are home but both go in the garage/outside without them, for instance, the dogs whine and whine, bark, will even howl in desperation for them.

Actually, myself and my husband are the only ones that don't let them get away with bad or spoiled behavior (excessive barking, jumping up, begging at the table, etc.), which is what makes this particularly annoying/difficult. We live here because of his parents' generosity, so having a confrontation about how they don't discipline their dogs would be out of line, in my opinion. After all, they're not mean, destructive, or dangerous...just annoying as hell, don't obey basic commands, and are a nuisance when it comes to barking. Embarrassing (I guess) or frustrating should anyone knock and show at the door....

So, although the ideal of having a unified front for training/discipline is not necessarily available, I'm just looking for some tips to help better things even just some. I'm desperate. Maybe my in-laws will see and want to continue it.

These are both toy-sized dogs. One is a male pure-bred Yorkie, albeit mutant size-wise - he's nearly the size of a Westie, and they've had him from the moment he could be taken home as a puppy. If you ask him to do something, it looks like no one's awake at the wheel/you can see the back of his head through his eyes, but he is plenty bright enough - just doesn't perform unless he gets a treat for pretty much anything. He'll yip to come back in the house from the back, but then will often just stand there, because my in-laws will just say "come on, come on" get impatient and immediately say "let's get a treat" and, bam, he's in. Babied. He's at least four years old.

The other is a female terrier mutt, lank with supposed greyhound mix per vet. She's only ever so slightly longer/taller in size than the male. They got her from a shelter last summer, and no one knew until she was home for a couple weeks that she was obviously still a puppy. She's no more than two years old. The first month or two, she had extreme separation anxiety... absolutely needed to be literally right next to someone. She'd just walk around whining because she wasn't being held or touched even if, for example, I needed to get up and go to the bathroom. She'd then whine the entire time the door was closed. Should've named her "Static."

They behave loads better when my husband and I are the only ones home - less barking, no whining, no begging. Almost normal, haha...except for excessive submission, which never goes away. Once any of my in-laws/their friends get home or are around, it's like a switch is flipped in the dogs. Pretty classic spoiled child-like behavior. It's bark-bark-bark for the rest of the night, and all day on weekends. Allowed behaviors. They even start barking from the master bedroom if I get up to get water at night!

The female...Here's the main reason I'm even typing for help. She is so excitable that her back end pretty much can't stop moving. She knows the commands 'sit' and 'down', but it's like she's seriously so excited that she can't get her own hind in control, circles, rolls over on her stomach, still wagging her butt like its controlled by a gyro, moves sideways... All the while, whining in that sniveling "omg pet me, love me, I'm so excited, pet me, love me!" way. Licking the air constantly. Even we she "sits", her back end is still wagging, just off the floor! Couldn't "stay" if her life depended on it. It's completely ridiculous, and this extreme can happen any time, but of course is most intense when it's been a while - for her, even just a half hour. When she approaches, it's head down, that sniveling-whine, then all the aforementioned. She'll roll over on your feet. Lap at your calves. It was cute and "awh"-worthy the first couple days...In reality, it's just over the top and in the way. "Pathetic" might be the word. If you so much as glance at her going about your business, it's ears back, head down, sliding onto the floor front first, insane rubbery wagging sometimes still walking with the back legs for a bit, and then rolling over. Just head over feet submissive!

Also, any noises she hears, she's on patrol, will bark bark bark, and then just start trotting around aimlessly whining and then warming up to more bark bark barking until the sound is over or recognized as benign. If she does this while I'm home, I put a stop to it, but of course all other times it's just allowed.

And, of course, when the dogs are super excited, everyone embraces it and rewards them with high-pitched 'hello! hello!'s and petting. Ugh! In fact, in her first couple months here, she peed a few times from being too excited from people getting home, yet people still join in.

While the male's behavior is frustrating, much if not all is clearly learned or allowed/ignored. The female is absolutely unbearable to be around to me and my husband, but mostly I feel like a dog that is that submissive to humans can't be healthy mentally... When it comes to other dogs, she is confident, and is more likely to be dominant (and is over the male here). She is totally confident in the backyard, on walks, and so on, which is what makes it particularly odd. It'd be nice to just look at her and have her wag her tail if she was happy and continue about her business without starting to throw herself on the floor from across the room in grovel-mode. Terrier-slither?

Am I just biased from only having larger breeds/Is this submissive/excitable behavior just a "small dog" thing...? Being a cat person? Having always had very well-behaved/trained animals?

Am I wrong in thinking this extreme submission isn't healthy behavior?

I don't know whether to be more confident/stark in interacting with her and risk making her MORE submissive, or to be softer in approach without encouraging her incessant sniveling further.

Thanks for reading!

I have found help in books that identify the behaviors and give tips on how to break them. That is what I have done with my dogs. Never had experience with a professional trainer though.

I don't know if it's healthy or not, but I will point out the she may have been abused prior to your in-laws getting her. Dogs have good memories and it takes a while to trust again.

Sorry I have no advice...

[googley]

If other people wouldn't be wiling to take the dogs to dog training, would you be willing to? That might be the best way to go about getting them trained.

I hate to say it, but unless separating the dogs is an option and/or getting the owners to enforce training, its all for not. I mean, training them to listen to *you* is good, but when their parents get home, it'll be "why do I need to listen to you again?"
The reason for separating the dogs is because they mimic the dog with the most energy. The female is giving off "anxious" energy that the male feeds off of. Having consistency is key, but without having everyone participate will only confuse and anger you and the pups. Simple things to have them do/rules? *sit for a meal, before the door opens, for a treat, or toy
* never let them out the door first (respect issue..I could go on, but with the anxiety the dogs have it would be difficult. Also, small dogs are usually *a lot* more high strung but not always so its not just you. I hope you can sway their owners to train them good luck

Oh, about her submissive behavior and your approach, a light hand is necessary. Being stark would only make her anxiety heightened. Do they get walked? Its a myth that little dogs don't need exercise. The walking would/should help her anxiety. Having a job to do like wearing a backpack helped a foster I had, but with a small/tiny dog I don't think it would mesh. You can always private message me if you need support or other ideas. I love animals and helping their caring humans

[DogTrainingLove]

First how much exercise and mental stimulation do these dogs get?

As said, if the owners aren't going to reinforce any behaviors you teach, you aren't going to have much luck. Is there any way you can get them on board by offering to help train the dogs them as long as they work with you?

[Redsoft]

The theory around here after info from the shelter is that the female was part of an abandoned litter...abuse via neglect for sure, but at least (<-- I don't know how else to put it) she doesn't show any behavior that would suggest she was ever physically struck and such. ...Which is also weird in that if she showed signs of being afraid of physical abuse or yelling, the origin of the persistent submission would make more "sense".

Unfortunately money and mental health-wise I am unable to take the dogs somewhere for training... I have pretty severe social avoidance and anxiety in general, so interactive situations like that without someone I know with me are really bad. Wouldn't be a very conducive energy for the dogs either. Also, because of other mental health/personality stuff, I don't really have any friends around here that I might enlist the support of to go with me.

One thing for sure is that they get lots of exercise. Little dogs, large house, open floor plan, stairs, large yard, lots of playing together. During the day, I'll encourage them to start tug of war games and make sure they get outside for a while (until they decide to start barking at everything...) a few times a day. Their owners play with them both directly when they get home and often take them out places. They previously had a larger dog, so all habits are still set up to accommodate that size's requirements, so they are set

I've always stuck to the human's-first when it comes to entering places/going out, but, question: Should this be practiced even when just letting the dogs out in the backyard, even if I just step right back in and let them to it?

Okay, I'll stick with a softer approach. Feels weird. Last pup I trained (supporting my husband's example) was a bloodhound bound for search and rescue! Before that, my family had a wolf-dog. These tiny dogs are just totally foreign, haha! ...And really lacking in the brains department. LOL

Buhhhh, maybe the most productive/effective thing to do for them in this situation would be to sneak in tons of hints about training benefits to the owners... They may let the barking happen and are immune to a lot of it, but I know they certainly get frustrated by that alone which, of all the things, could probably push them over the edge. As much as I'd like to fix it myself, you're all confirming what I wanted to shirk or surrender to - that the only real way is uniformity. Thanks for the responses, everyone!

[Redsoft]

...With the theory "abandoned litter" in mind, would this behavior indicate early separation from the mother?

I would *definitely* enforce humans out and inside first even just for them to go out in the backyard. Dogs don't understand *respect some of the time* but not others. Just like being on furniture, dogs can learn to ask permission to be up on it, but not that its ok sometimes. As far as the behavior, she sounds like shes unsure of things there's not always an answer to why some dogs are like that. "Playing" and "going places" is nice. But what about daily walks? Dogs need the stimulation of different environments and walking. Im a big dog person too but foster many little dogs and have rehabilitated many also. Hope things work out

[DogTrainingLove]

Of course it's good to teach a dog to wait until told to run out a door for safety reasons. Though it doesn't matter if you or they go out first. That whole dominance/submission pack theory has been debunked for a while.

I'd say they need some more mental and physical simulation. I recommend at least adding a daily walk. They can get mental stimualtion through training (There are many cool tricks you can teach at home, you can also teach them a "Quiet" to help with barking) and this may also improve the dogs confidence.