Problems with doggies

I wonder if instead of requiring insurance, it would make more sense to provide more low-cost veterinary care. For Chile, my municipality is pretty innovative. They operate a shelter that takes in strays and adopt them out. They also have a low-cost veterinary clinic. Where I used to live, the municipal government would hold free vaccination days and spay/neuter days. For the spay/neuter events, they only asked people to bring some sort of cleaning supplies like paper towels, garbage bags, disinfectant, etc., so they could keep the area where the vets were operating clean. I know other municipal governments have similar initiatives.


I've lived in this country for a long time and it's interesting to see the progress that has been made as far as encouraging responsible ownership. It's not perfect by any means, but there used to be so many stray animals all over the place. You still see strays, but the numbers have come down.

We are not required to have insurance on pets though I've heard of some areas that require liability insurance for certain breeds of dogs.

No legal requirement about chipping either.

Cats and dogs are required to have annual rabies shots, then be registered with the county. The rabies shot makes sense for pets that go outside. The registration is a way to collect money as far as I'm concerned. For my cats that never leave the house I don't get them rabies vaccines. They never leave the house so they are never going to be exposed.

There are low cost spay/neuter clinics. The county shelter will spay/neuter cats and dogs for free.

Any pet adopted from the shelter is spayed or neutered, tested for heartworms (and treated if positive or started on preventative if negative), tested for internal parasites and treated if necessary, given all shots and microchipped. I got Hazel for free because I'm a senior. Regular adoption fee is like $20.

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Originally Posted by lizardlady We are not required to have insurance on pets though I've heard of some areas that require liability insurance for certain breeds of dogs. No legal requirement about chipping either. Cats and dogs are required to have annual rabies shots, then be registered with the county. The rabies shot makes sense for pets that go outside. The registration is a way to collect money as far as I'm concerned. For my cats that never leave the house I don't get them rabies vaccines. They never leave the house so they are never going to be exposed. There are low cost spay/neuter clinics. The county shelter will spay/neuter cats and dogs for free. Any pet adopted from the shelter is spayed or neutered, tested for heartworms (and treated if positive or started on preventative if negative), tested for internal parasites and treated if necessary, given all shots and microchipped. I got Hazel for free because I'm a senior. Regular adoption fee is like $20.

Same here in Ky. So many just show up on our farms around here. Gabe was too young & small to be neutered so waited until he was big enough. I adopted Bella kitty from my vet & she was all checked out & vaccinated. Sophie doggie I got from the shelter. They had all her vet records from the lady who didn't want her any more. Would have to see if they microchipped her or not. No adoption fee for her but I gave them a good donation & we were all so thankful they didn't put her down that weekend cause I had her until I could get in to do the formal adoption.

Cote my crazy little puppy came from the breeder with 1 month vet insurance which I renewed after I got him home. Even with deworming at his breeder, I gave him the next dose a month later & I have never seen a dog with so many round worms. Wasn't sure if it was an ongoing thing or an immune issue so I have insurance on him till I know everything is ok. Going to make an appointment for him to have a check up & final shots. Around here, the raccoons get canine distemper so it is not just other dogs to be concerned about. None of my fur babies go outside without me & Bella kitty has never been outside since I got her & she has no interest. Gabe loves to sneek out the door but stays right around the front porch or around where I am working. After losing BK (barn kitty) to a coyote last year when I was sick, I make sure Gabe is inside at night & he wants to be inside.

My daughter had insurance on her soulmate doggie she lost last thanksgiving with heart issues. I paid for all the vet bills the insurance didn't cover. It still added up & took me 6 months to get them paid off using Care Credit (no interest). I have paid more vet bills in the last 5 years....I could have mor than paid for the foundation work needed on my garage. But paying for that many animals insurance premiums would have cost too much also. Works ok for one but not when you have a house full.

Cesar Milan has no credentials to speak of and bases his training off of since disproven wolf alpha theories. Most of his training reverts right back to where it was or worse.

I am a professional dog trainer, and every single animal related association has disavowed Milan's "techniques" (which are basically just abuse). He was banned from training in Germany for his techniques.

It's not uncommon for people to see Milan and recommend him, because his training style was flashy and sexy and they put him on TV. It's hard not to see this "quick fix" and think it actually works. Real behavior change takes time.

For those who are interested in building relationships with their dogs in a positive manner that isn't abusive, check out Susan Garrett, Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar.

Books like Click to Calm and Calm Unleashed are really great for addressing reactivity and other problem behaviors in humane, ethical ways that get results.

All of it, it’s understandable.

Exactly. This is a good way to proceed and encourage adoptions. It seems our “marvellous” brilliant minds of politicians don’t give them for more other than collecting taxes.
I’m so mad at them.

Interesting! I’m not a professional at this topic so my opinion has less basement than yours.
I didn’t know all these changes in dogs’ behaviours Cesar Millan promoted had no continuation in time.

I loved the part in which he shows how a dog sees the world. I take it this part. For me it was a way to know how to respect dogs’ nature.

I don’t see Cesar’s techniques as abusive. Of course, what I only see is what’s shown on his videos.

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Originally Posted by seesaw Cesar Milan has no credentials to speak of and bases his training off of since disproven wolf alpha theories. Most of his training reverts right back to where it was or worse. I am a professional dog trainer, and every single animal related association has disavowed Milan's "techniques" (which are basically just abuse). He was banned from training in Germany for his techniques. It's not uncommon for people to see Milan and recommend him, because his training style was flashy and sexy and they put him on TV. It's hard not to see this "quick fix" and think it actually works. Real behavior change takes time. For those who are interested in building relationships with their dogs in a positive manner that isn't abusive, check out Susan Garrett, Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar. Books like Click to Calm and Calm Unleashed are really great for addressing reactivity and other problem behaviors in humane, ethical ways that get results.

Exactly why I love training my dogs at a personal level. I refuse to break their spirit or personality. I have found the herding nipping is actually controlled in his own mind now even at only 5 months old. He used to just carried away & it was his way of playing. Now if he connects in a nip on me he immediately stops unless he has just been wresteling with Sophie. His puppy mind doesn't switch gears that quickly. I want training where I create a bonding connection which is done with kindness & love. Cote is the first puppy I have actually worked this closely with because I am now in a place where I can & life frustrations like I had are in the past. Probably his Aussie Shepherd breed but I have never had such an easy puppy to train almost without thinking, just indicating consistently what I want him to do & just a quick reminder when he gets into something & praise when he stops. He is a wonderful companion & perfect off leash at 5 months.

Lol....my black lab I adopted at 3 1/2 years old is wonderful on leash & taught Cote to sit for his food at 8 weeks old by example HOWEVER off leash she is down the road like a "Bat outta #@[[" until I drive my truck to get her & she loves to go for rides but she will not "come" when called outside.

He doesn't know how dogs see the world. Most of what he spreads is complete misinformation. Dominance theory, which is what he spreads, was debunked years ago.

He uses what's called coercive training techniques. It's downright abuse, doesn't matter if you see it thar way or not. Poking, prodding, and other wise manhandling dogs the way he does is abuse and studies have shown it does not improve dog behavior but rather worsens it.

Humans are not dogs and your dog doesn't think you are one. When Cesar tells people to jab their dogs like they are a dog giving a correction, that is simply abuse. When he tells people to do alpha rolls, which do not do anything to improve behavior, it's abuse.

He frequently purposely pushes dogs over threshold so they will bite on camera. Harassing an animal for a reaction because it makes good TV is abuse.

I really implore you to look up some of the trainers I mentioned to see what good, positive reinforcement based, relationship based training and behavior change looks like.

Milan, unfortunately, has done a lot of harm because he looked good on camera and a lot of people liked the idea of "dominating" their dogs.

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Good training should amplify the parts of his personality you love, not dampen them. My dogs are known for their personalities, lol, and they have loads of training.

Herding nipping can definitely be challenging but there are good, humane ways to deal with it. Just like all dogs learn bite inhibition, herders have to learn not to nip.

Yeah, leashes can be super hard for dogs that are used to roaming. So can recall. I've been working on recall with Algo Mas for the last year and it's good, and I'm getting some recall off squirrels but sometimes those squirrels are too much. Other distractions, no problem.

I always say it's important to figure out what your goals are for your dog and just work on that. Not every dog needs to be perfect on leash or have a 3 minute stay or perfect obedience. The dog needs to have whatever helps them fit in your life, that's all.

I'm working with a couple right now who are getting ready to have a baby and they just want to walk their golden with the stroller. So we are working on loose leash walking and calm on leash behavior. Nothing fancy.

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Originally Posted by seesaw Good training should amplify the parts of his personality you love, not dampen them. My dogs are known for their personalities, lol, and they have loads of training. Herding nipping can definitely be challenging but there are good, humane ways to deal with it. Just like all dogs learn bite inhibition, herders have to learn not to nip. Yeah, leashes can be super hard for dogs that are used to roaming. So can recall. I've been working on recall with Algo Mas for the last year and it's good, and I'm getting some recall off squirrels but sometimes those squirrels are too much. Other distractions, no problem. I always say it's important to figure out what your goals are for your dog and just work on that. Not every dog needs to be perfect on leash or have a 3 minute stay or perfect obedience. The dog needs to have whatever helps them fit in your life, that's all. I'm working with a couple right now who are getting ready to have a baby and they just want to walk their golden with the stroller. So we are working on loose leash walking and calm on leash behavior. Nothing fancy. Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

Had to laugh at Cote's first encounter with cows the other day.....at my fence line with the neighbors cows. He got so excited however his barking brought them ALL closer to the fence to see what the noise was & he wasn't so sure about that. He also has some amazing "afterburner" speed so he may be interested in agility. I will introduce him to some of those things he is good at just to see if he has any interest. He sure enjoys walking /running around my farm with me. He loves finding sticks & playing keep away from me.

As for the nipping I have a squirt bottle filled with white vinegar. It has taken awhile but he may nip bit then stops himself unless that brain switch turned off. He does those same herding moves when playing with Sophie so I recognize them when he tries it with me & stop him immediately. Lol....the squirt bottle of vinegar works great against counter surfing which he thinks is fun now he is big enough to see everything & be able to reach it too. The squirt bottle works from across the room too so the correction can be immediate

I would be very careful with this method because youre using an aversive (positive punishment) that can potentially hurt the fog. Using the vinegar and water and spraying it in the face can cause pain and damage to the dog's eyes.

Positive punishment only temporarily suppresses behavior, it doesn't change it long term and doesnt address the root cause. Meaning any time you aren't around to enforce the correction, the dog will take the opportunity to countersurf.

Susan Garrett has a game called It's Yer Choice (IYC) that is much better for teaching the kind of impulse control you're looking for.

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Susan Garrett has a game called It's Yer Choice (IYC) that is much better for teaching the kind of impulse control you're looking for.

Thanks....I will definitely look into this

Seesaw, thanks for saying Milan is abusive. I was going to say that, but I believe it carries more weight coming from a professional.

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Originally Posted by lizardlady Seesaw, thanks for saying Milan is abusive. I was going to say that, but I believe it carries more weight coming from a professional.

I never cared for his methods & never used them with my eskies

Don’t worry. Your words don’t fall into deaf ears. You know I take into account all you say in your posts, much more, in this topic in which you are an expert. 👍

I used them with my Perla, my first doggie since Miky was adopted later. they never worked with her. What always works better for her was and is positive reinforcement and my warmth and calm voice. She’s stubborn as any westie and has her personality but she responds pretty well to my positive reinforcement.

I used César Millán’s techniques to help Miky overcome his fears: motorbikes noises, bangs.
For example, I used to approach him to where the noise came. Kind of desensitization. All in a calm way. As saying to him, nothing happens. That’s normal. He overcame his fears but now I don’t know if I was abusive with him.

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Originally Posted by AzulOscuro I used them with my Perla, my first doggie since Miky was adopted later. they never worked with her. What always works better for her was and is positive reinforcement and my warmth and calm voice. She’s stubborn as any westie and has her personality but she responds pretty well to my positive reinforcement. I used César Millán’s techniques to help Miky overcome his fears: motorbikes noises, bangs. For example, I used to approach him to where the noise came. Kind of desensitization. All in a calm way. As saying to him, nothing happens. That’s normal. He overcame his fears but now I don’t know if I was abusive with him.

Doesn't sound like you were abusive. Sometimes a mixture of different kinds of training work. Use what works for your dog. If if didn't work I am sure you would not have continued.

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Originally Posted by seesaw I would be very careful with this method because youre using an aversive (positive punishment) that can potentially hurt the fog. Using the vinegar and water and spraying it in the face can cause pain and damage to the dog's eyes. Positive punishment only temporarily suppresses behavior, it doesn't change it long term and doesnt address the root cause. Meaning any time you aren't around to enforce the correction, the dog will take the opportunity to countersurf. Susan Garrett has a game called It's Yer Choice (IYC) that is much better for teaching the kind of impulse control you're looking for. Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

Watched one of her videos on this. It was more about food. Cote is counter surfing for things he can play with even though he has many toys to play with. His counter surfing isn't about food. Ugh....kitchen scissors were not a toy. My house is not able to be dog proofed right now though I do have some rooms gated off. I kept putting things up higher but as he grew he just kept getting into things up higher & higher. His counter surfing is not about food it is just about what can I pull down to play with

seesaw’s quote:

“I always say it's important to figure out what your goals are for your dog and just work on that. Not every dog needs to be perfect on leash or have a 3 minute stay or perfect obedience. The dog needs to have whatever helps them fit in your life, that's all.”

That is so true.

eskieslover’s quote

“Cote is counter surfing for things he can play with even though he has many toys to play with. “
Difficult situation. I never had that problem. Miky was small and Perla is small. I’m wondering myself what I would do in that situation.
I’ve seen so many videos of César Millán that I can’t across now about other techniques.

I guess you have to be very patience and reinforce him to keep distance with the kitchen or an area of the kitchen. Short orders and award him when being calm and keep the distance. I think you already tried it, didn’t you? He will need a long time to associate but it’s worthy. Counters are very appealing. lol!