[rebecca1938]

Hi,
My daughter is almost 16. She has always been quite difficult to deal with. She has always been headstrong, and unwilling to compromise. I remember getting super mad with her from an early age because she was so defiant. She was also very negative and full of drama. She'd come out of school almost every day crying, and for no good reason, but her life seemed to her to be way worse than it actually was. To add to this, she is a terrible sleeper, and also a really terrible eater, so globally things are difficult.
In the last couple of years I managed to get her to therapy. Her therapist initially sent us to the doctor to ask about her eating. After about ten minutes listening to my daughter and I argue back and forth about her eating, he stopped us and suggested she had ODD (oppositional defiance disorder) I felt relived because I thought I had been the worst parent in the world up to this point, and kind of felt like, wow, maybe she has also been hard to handle and its not all me.
Since then, she has been diagnosed with depression and is on lexapro, (even thought the lexapro is working we already tried a change in medication ), but honestly she is worse then ever, and now, when and if she gets into an argument with me, or basically if I start a conversation about anything she doesn't want to hear, she threatens that she will take her life. Well tonight, I did almost call 911. I don't know what stopped me. Partly because I am 99.9% sure that she doesn't mean it, and because I truly believe it has kind of become a tactic for her. However, I am now feeling like a bad parent as I sit here and cannot sleep worrying about her in the next room. I am positive she is OK, or I would do something, but I want to ask you all something.
Have any of you called 911 on your kids for this? What happens? I am scared to do it to her.
Secondly, I am afraid I no longer know how to parent. She has been allowed to drop out of a lead part in a school play that she knew she had since September. She didn't seem to have one single regret about it. I was apologizing to the drama teachers on her behalf because the way she did it and how late she left it was just wrong. So, she took up a sport and is as happy as can be about that, but yet has also been allowed to drop out of an online math course of which she only had 15 lessons left to do. It feels to me like she is just doing whatever she wants and getting whatever she wants. But, when I do challenge her, I feel like I am walking on eggshells. I feel that not one of us has any kind of ability to have her do what we ask.
Please help. I told my husband tonight I'd have to live elsewhere and he could live with her, because I am at my wits end and don't know what to do any more. I'm so, so worried.

[sideblinded]

(((rebecca1938))), I read your post and I hear a very worried parent afraid of making a wrong choice. I feel that since she is threatening to take her life that it is time for her to face the consequences of more intense intervention. I would definitely get her inpatient as threats of suicide are really words that are asking for help. These medications can change a person's mood and I wouldn't take it lightly. Set up a counseling appt, call her doctor and get her in a program that will stabilize her moods. It is better to be safe than sorry.

Best wishes.

[rebecca1938]

Originally Posted by sideblinded

(((rebecca1938))), I read your post and I hear a very worried parent afraid of making a wrong choice. I feel that since she is threatening to take her life that it is time for her to face the consequences of more intense intervention. I would definitely get her inpatient as threats of suicide are really words that are asking for help. These medications can change a person's mood and I wouldn't take it lightly. Set up a counseling appt, call her doctor and get her in a program that will stabilize her moods. It is better to be safe than sorry.

Best wishes.

Thank you so much. I am at my wits end. I find myself at odds with my husband and the counselor. I just didn't want her intervention to be going away by police car as I am imagining that will be so traumatic, but yet, as you say, she maybe at this point needs an inpatient stay. Is there any way to do this without waiting for an incident that requires a 911 call? We have her counselor this Saturday. I am asking for alone time to talk to her. I have checked on my daughter and she is sound asleep and safe for now, but I (and she) cannot keep living like this with basic parenting leading to the threat of taking her own life. Many thanks for your reply. It means a lot. I have nowhere else to turn.

[sideblinded]

Originally Posted by rebecca1938

Thank you so much. I am at my wits end. I find myself at odds with my husband and the counselor. I just didn't want her intervention to be going away by police car as I am imagining that will be so traumatic, but yet, as you say, she maybe at this point needs an inpatient stay. Is there any way to do this without waiting for an incident that requires a 911 call? We have her counselor this Saturday. I am asking for alone time to talk to her. I have checked on my daughter and she is sound asleep and safe for now, but I (and she) cannot keep living like this with basic parenting leading to the threat of taking her own life. Many thanks for your reply. It means a lot. I have nowhere else to turn.

I hope that you have the counselor's support. You need a counselor that will be on the parent's side as you are the caregiver and you have to live with this. The counselor needs to be attentive to the parents as you can't keep living on eggshells. I would make some phone calls to the hospital and talk to them about what you need to do to arrange for an inpatient stay if your counselor is not on the same page.

[vital]

Originally Posted by rebecca1938

Hi,
My daughter is almost 16. She has always been quite difficult to deal with. She has always been headstrong, and unwilling to compromise. I remember getting super mad with her from an early age because she was so defiant. She was also very negative and full of drama. She'd come out of school almost every day crying, and for no good reason, but her life seemed to her to be way worse than it actually was. To add to this, she is a terrible sleeper, and also a really terrible eater, so globally things are difficult.
In the last couple of years I managed to get her to therapy. Her therapist initially sent us to the doctor to ask about her eating. After about ten minutes listening to my daughter and I argue back and forth about her eating, he stopped us and suggested she had ODD (oppositional defiance disorder) I felt relived because I thought I had been the worst parent in the world up to this point, and kind of felt like, wow, maybe she has also been hard to handle and its not all me.
Since then, she has been diagnosed with depression and is on lexapro, (even thought the lexapro is working we already tried a change in medication ), but honestly she is worse then ever, and now, when and if she gets into an argument with me, or basically if I start a conversation about anything she doesn't want to hear, she threatens that she will take her life. Well tonight, I did almost call 911. I don't know what stopped me. Partly because I am 99.9% sure that she doesn't mean it, and because I truly believe it has kind of become a tactic for her. However, I am now feeling like a bad parent as I sit here and cannot sleep worrying about her in the next room. I am positive she is OK, or I would do something, but I want to ask you all something.
Have any of you called 911 on your kids for this? What happens? I am scared to do it to her.
Secondly, I am afraid I no longer know how to parent. She has been allowed to drop out of a lead part in a school play that she knew she had since September. She didn't seem to have one single regret about it. I was apologizing to the drama teachers on her behalf because the way she did it and how late she left it was just wrong. So, she took up a sport and is as happy as can be about that, but yet has also been allowed to drop out of an online math course of which she only had 15 lessons left to do. It feels to me like she is just doing whatever she wants and getting whatever she wants. But, when I do challenge her, I feel like I am walking on eggshells. I feel that not one of us has any kind of ability to have her do what we ask.
Please help. I told my husband tonight I'd have to live elsewhere and he could live with her, because I am at my wits end and don't know what to do any more. I'm so, so worried.

Hi Rebecca,

I'm just an anonymous guy on the internet, but I don't see anything in the above that would make me call 911 or have an inpatient stay of some sort. I'd be concerned that something like that could make things a lot worse.

I think that your daughter just has depression as your second Doc said. It sounds like this was immediately followed by taking antidepressants, which would concern me. I think it's much better to try the many healthy safe ways to make depression better first. For my concerns, see

Why Antidepressants Don?t Work for Treating Depression - Dr. Mark Hyman

Negative Effects of Antidepressants | Mad in America

As for what to do instead, here is what I personally think is the best plan:

http://forums.psychcentral.com/4162657-post74.html

Please especially note that there may be an underlying medical or nutritional cause. It's very worth while to check these out.

- vital

[rebecca1938]

Hi Rebecca,

I'm just an anonymous guy on the internet, but I don't see anything in the above that would make me call 911 or have an inpatient stay of some sort. I'd be concerned that something like that could make things a lot worse.

I think that your daughter just has depression as your second Doc said. It sounds like this was immediately followed by taking antidepressants, which would concern me. I think it's much better to try the many healthy safe ways to make depression better first. For my concerns, see

Please especially note that there may be an underlying medical or nutritional cause. It's very worth while to check these out.


*Thanks so much for this advice. i agree and I think we're in a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Everyone says that depression is not common among kids like her, who have a (relatively) normal life. No traumas etc. They also say its hereditary, yet there is nothing in the family to suggest this. I am baffled as to how she got it. That is not to say, of course, that teenagers don't just get depression. I know they do and they're not making it up.

i will say that the episode last night scared me, but after the fact when it had calmed down, it was as if it hadn't happened. As if she had done it for attention. I really, genuinely do not think she wants to take her life, and I agree, I think calling 911 and an inpatient stay will perhaps not make it better. I just don't know HOW to make it better though. ***HOW do you get a 15 year old who has learn snow to threaten to take her own life when she is hearing things she doesn't want to hear? How do you teach her that during her life she will hear things that annoy/aggravate her or that she does not agree with but that threatening suicide is not how to deal with that? I'm picturing her now, arguing with her husband int he future, as happens, and her saying that to him. That's not ok. She's not going to have a happy life like that. I'm so worried for her.

i will say though that she has these episodes of threatening her life when she gets in an argument and hears things she does not like. She has always been like that in the sense that she never dealt well when things did not go her way. I'd tell her to brush her teeth and she'd lose it, basically saying how dare I tell her to do that. I don't know why she is like that, and she certainly was not spoiled. Also, what is weird is that although she was always very victim like and acting like her life was way worse than it was, she never ever threatened to kill herself. Why is it getting worse? She loves to have power over me and others, so it feels to me like has knows she has all the power in that situation.

She used to stand in the kitchen when I'd have had an argument with me saying 'I'm scared of you' and I'd say to her, no you are not, because if you were you would not be standing there goading me.
That's another thing, she knows how to press my buttons and will be relentless in doing so until I snap and yell, and then she gets to say - 'see you lost it'...she knows how to goad...

I can't do all of her behaviors justice to be honest.
You could be right that the depression could be at least some part due to the lack of sleep and the terrible eating habits, but I have tried everything and she will not set herself a good sleep routine, nor eat properly. I'm not sure how else to address that.

It's also hard going up against the other parent who has a different view than me about her. I took her cell off her one night because to help with sleep she's supposed to hand it over at 10pm. Well, the next night he would not take her phone because he said she was already upset and he didn't want to make it worse what with her being depressed. So tell me, does having a depressed teenager mean you let them away with more than other teenagers? Is that the right thing to do?
I'm totally and utterly lost as to how to be a parent right now. It's making me so sad.

[Mygrandjourney]

Originally Posted by sideblinded

I hope that you have the counselor's support. You need a counselor that will be on the parent's side as you are the caregiver and you have to live with this. The counselor needs to be attentive to the parents as you can't keep living on eggshells. I would make some phone calls to the hospital and talk to them about what you need to do to arrange for an inpatient stay if your counselor is not on the same page.

Having worked in the Emergency Dept of a hospital, these are some of the things we looked for when deciding to commit someone:
Thoughts of suicide (persistent, intrusive, rating 6-10/10 on intensity)
A viable plan for it
A history of self harm and past attempts, possibly a history among family members or friends/acquaintances
Access to means (this is tricky, since there are many ways to accomplish it).
Lack of a suitable and safe support system (this includes family/parents/professional)
Intention.

There's usually a difference between talking about suicide and doing it, but any time someone is talking about it, it should be taken seriously and addressed. As a therapist, the thinking is it is better to have a client angry with you and possibly even fire you than to have them die.

So tell me, does having a depressed teenager mean you let them away with more than other teenagers? Is that the right thing to do?

IMO, depressed teens are in need of having limits set, maybe moreso. IT is one way that a parent lets a child know they care and are concerned for their well being. Less important is winning a popularity contest.

[vital]

Originally Posted by rebecca1938

Everyone says that depression is not common among kids like her, who have a (relatively) normal life. No traumas etc. They also say its hereditary, yet there is nothing in the family to suggest this. I am baffled as to how she got it. That is not to say, of course, that teenagers don't just get depression. I know they do and they're not making it up.

Depression is actually really common among teenagers who have a normal life and no dramatic trauma. I was one of those myself. It's not widely known, but one of the main things that happens with depression is that you get hyper-hyper sensitive to the slightest implicit criticism (or praise) [I learned this from the book "Undoing Depression" by O'Connor]. I was like this when I was a teenager myself. It's so common that it's a classical icon. The iconic "angry teenager" is really a depressed teenager.

Also, I think you might have in mind the chemical imbalance view of depression. Most people think that if you have depression, that means that you have low serotonin, so this has to be fixed by medical intervention as if you have to supply insulin for a diabetic. This whole view turns out to be completely wrong. Pre-medicated depressives do not have low serotonin at all. There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with your daughter that fates her to be depressed without drugs. This is very good news, of course, but it is very important to realize that.

Originally Posted by rebecca1938

She used to stand in the kitchen when I'd have had an argument with me saying 'I'm scared of you' and I'd say to her, no you are not, because if you were you would not be standing there goading me.
That's another thing, she knows how to press my buttons and will be relentless in doing so until I snap and yell, and then she gets to say - 'see you lost it'...she knows how to goad...

I can't do all of her behaviors justice to be honest.
You could be right that the depression could be at least some part due to the lack of sleep and the terrible eating habits, but I have tried everything and she will not set herself a good sleep routine, nor eat properly. I'm not sure how else to address that.

It's also hard going up against the other parent who has a different view than me about her. I took her cell off her one night because to help with sleep she's supposed to hand it over at 10pm. Well, the next night he would not take her phone because he said she was already upset and he didn't want to make it worse what with her being depressed. So tell me, does having a depressed teenager mean you let them away with more than other teenagers? Is that the right thing to do?
I'm totally and utterly lost as to how to be a parent right now. It's making me so sad.

It's all classic angry teenager behavior and could have often described me when I was young. She is becoming enraged at the slightest implicit criticism from you. I mean the SLIGHTEST. When you take away her cell phone or tell her to brush her teeth, this implies that she can't take care of herself. She will find this enraging. Even your mere presence may be enraging to her because of what you MIGHT say or because of what she thinks your thinking about her. She probably has the feeling that you are watching over her every second she is home. She is probably goading you and threatening to kill herself because she is so angry and under stress that she just wants to hurt you in some way, even though she still loves you very much.

This is my own view. I'm not sure it's generally shared, but I'm pretty sure I'm right that underneath the whole thing is just depression. What depression really is and what to do about it are explained in that link in my original message.

Here's my advice on what to do:

0. Watch carefully to see if you think she has real suicidal behavior or impulses. Sideblinded is right in that one of the possible side effects of antidepressants is suicidal behavior. This doesn't happen that often, but it is serious. There have been people who were selected as NOT being depressed who actually committed suicide on such drugs only after a short period. This became serious enough that legislation forced warnings about this on the package insert for the medication. My own view is that these drugs are bad news for a number of reasons and shouldn't be used before trying safe healthy ways to get better.

1. Try to remain calm and loving and not reactive when she gets angry.

2. Try to give her as much space as possible as long as she isn't doing anything really destructive. Try to trust her as much as possible.

3. Gather what you think are the best materials about depression and let her see the materials herself. Just say, "I thought this might interest you" and leave it at that. Don't try to follow up about it directly. Give her a chance to get interested in getting better herself.

I know it's not easy, but I do have some experience. I didn't threaten to kill myself, but I was like your daughter when I was young.

- vital

[rebecca1938]

Originally Posted by Mygrandjourney

Having worked in the Emergency Dept of a hospital, these are some of the things we looked for when deciding to commit someone:
Thoughts of suicide (persistent, intrusive, rating 6-10/10 on intensity)
A viable plan for it
A history of self harm and past attempts, possibly a history among family members or friends/acquaintances
Access to means (this is tricky, since there are many ways to accomplish it).
Lack of a suitable and safe support system (this includes family/parents/professional)
Intention.

There's usually a difference between talking about suicide and doing it, but any time someone is talking about it, it should be taken seriously and addressed. As a therapist, the thinking is it is better to have a client angry with you and possibly even fire you than to have them die.

So tell me, does having a depressed teenager mean you let them away with more than other teenagers? Is that the right thing to do?

IMO, depressed teens are in need of having limits set, maybe moreso. IT is one way that a parent lets a child know they care and are concerned for their well being. Less important is winning a popularity contest.

Thank you so much for that list from signs from the ER. That is helpful. I will say that she only mentions it when she isn't getting her way. She doesn't ever threaten it when she's doing exactly what she wants, when she wants. My thought is that she has seen the power it has, and once when it happened, she even mentioned about how she thought that going to the hospital to be committed would be better than staying with me. She's glamorizing it. I think. I truly in my heart feel that she uses it as a power thing, but then you know she's saying it so...got to be careful. After last night I told her if she does it again, I am lifting the phone and dialling 911. She has left me with no choice. I want to just tell anyone reading this that there is no way I would NOT call 911 if she really was going to do it, but the thing is she stands there right in front of me going 'I'm going to do it right now, and she gets to see the horror and panic in my face. She was and always has been a lover of drama creation. It's like she gets a buzz out of it, hence the goading and goading of me until I snapped and started screaming at her. When she finally broke me down like that she almost looked pleased with herself. She revels in drama.
That list is so helpful though. Thank you.
Thank you also for saying she actually needs boundaries. Did I tell you her father was too scared to take her cell from her because she was already so down one night. I said to him look, if we have a child who is going to get so upset she might harm herself because we ask for her cell at 10pm, then we have a BIG problem. So, she kept the cell and slept in for school the next day, because I am sure she was sitting on the cell half the night. I can only do what I think are good parenting skills, but it seems like everyone else disagrees. I am going to challenge the counselor about this on our next visit which is soon.

[rebecca1938]

Originally Posted by vital

Depression is actually really common among teenagers who have a normal life and no dramatic trauma. I was one of those myself. It's not widely known, but one of the main things that happens with depression is that you get hyper-hyper sensitive to the slightest implicit criticism (or praise) [I learned this from the book "Undoing Depression" by O'Connor]. I was like this when I was a teenager myself. It's so common that it's a classical icon. The iconic "angry teenager" is really a depressed teenager.

Also, I think you might have in mind the chemical imbalance view of depression. Most people think that if you have depression, that means that you have low serotonin, so this has to be fixed by medical intervention as if you have to supply insulin for a diabetic. This whole view turns out to be completely wrong. Pre-medicated depressives do not have low serotonin at all. There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with your daughter that fates her to be depressed without drugs. This is very good news, of course, but it is very important to realize that.


It's all classic angry teenager behavior and could have often described me when I was young. She is becoming enraged at the slightest implicit criticism from you. I mean the SLIGHTEST. When you take away her cell phone or tell her to brush her teeth, this implies that she can't take care of herself. She will find this enraging. Even your mere presence may be enraging to her because of what you MIGHT say or because of what she thinks your thinking about her. She probably has the feeling that you are watching over her every second she is home. She is probably goading you and threatening to kill herself because she is so angry and under stress that she just wants to hurt you in some way, even though she still loves you very much.

This is my own view. I'm not sure it's generally shared, but I'm pretty sure I'm right that underneath the whole thing is just depression. What depression really is and what to do about it are explained in that link in my original message.

Here's my advice on what to do:

0. Watch carefully to see if you think she has real suicidal behavior or impulses. Sideblinded is right in that one of the possible side effects of antidepressants is suicidal behavior. This doesn't happen that often, but it is serious. There have been people who were selected as NOT being depressed who actually committed suicide on such drugs only after a short period. This became serious enough that legislation forced warnings about this on the package insert for the medication. My own view is that these drugs are bad news for a number of reasons and shouldn't be used before trying safe healthy ways to get better.

1. Try to remain calm and loving and not reactive when she gets angry.

2. Try to give her as much space as possible as long as she isn't doing anything really destructive. Try to trust her as much as possible.

3. Gather what you think are the best materials about depression and let her see the materials herself. Just say, "I thought this might interest you" and leave it at that. Don't try to follow up about it directly. Give her a chance to get interested in getting better herself.

I know it's not easy, but I do have some experience. I didn't threaten to kill myself, but I was like your daughter when I was young.

- vital

Thank you so much for this. I found your reply really insightful, and I appreciate it. I had never really thought of that before, that she may be hyper sensitive to criticism. I think you are right. You can't say ANYTHING to her. Any single negative thing and she flies off the handle. And honestly, they are things that any other parent would say to their kid! But now that you put it like that, I can see it. OK, so although she drives me nuts with her choices and behavior, lack of sleeping and eating, I can be thankful, as you say, that she is not doing anything destructive, so I am just going to have to back off a little. I just balk at having to stand back and watch her throw away stuff like the lead role in the play that she ditched after wanting it so badly, and a math course that was so almost finished. To watch her just shrug and walk away from them is hard as a parent. Do I just let it go? If she's hyper sensitive how do I enforce rules like taking her cell at 10pm? Or do I not? This is where I feel like I need supernanny, because your advice makes sense, but it still leaves me thinking - how do I parent this child?
May I ask you this also? You seem very anti-medication and I am too truthfully. She is on lexapro. Do you include that in the drugs you would try not to use? What other strategies other than the drugs can I try with her to help her?
Many thanks again. I am overwhelmed by the responses, and it is so more than helpful having opinions by others who have insight. I felt so alone.

[BioAdoptMom3]

Your concerns sound extremely similar to what we dealt with when our DD was 11 1/2 and we first sought care because of cutting, eating disorders and later, suicidal thoughts and attempts. She was initially diagnosed with depression and anxiety and put on Prozac. It worked well for several weeks then stopped so the pdoc upped it. That worked again but stopped after a few weeks, so upped it again. She added Abilify and we noticed a difference for the better overnight, but still not what you could call good. Fast forward to almost 3 years later and she was diagnosed with bipolar and in a mixed state. Turns out the Prozac was making her manic and thus, the suicidal thoughts and attempts and worse behavior. So, I think you may be dealing with more than depression here. First, because her symptoms are worse on an antidepressant and second, your comment about sleep jumped out at me. Sleep disorders are a hallmark of bipolar disorder! I would absolutely get a second opinion!

Nancy

[vital]

Originally Posted by rebecca1938

I just balk at having to stand back and watch her throw away stuff like the lead role in the play that she ditched after wanting it so badly, and a math course that was so almost finished. To watch her just shrug and walk away from them is hard as a parent. Do I just let it go? If she's hyper sensitive how do I enforce rules like taking her cell at 10pm? Or do I not? This is where I feel like I need supernanny, because your advice makes sense, but it still leaves me thinking - how do I parent this child? [/URL]

I'm not a parent and have no real expertise, but I can imagine that it can be almost heartbreaking to watch your daughter throw things away like that. At that age, I was more affected by what my friends thought than what my parents thought. I don't know if it's practical for you, but if she has friends or cousins of her own age who are thriving, being with them might have a big effect.

Originally Posted by rebecca1938

May I ask you this also? You seem very anti-medication and I am too truthfully. She is on lexapro. Do you include that in the drugs you would try not to use?

YES. These drugs are dangerous. They can be like a trap and they are prescribed like aspirin. What your M.D. probably didn't tell you is that over time, these drugs make negative long term or permanent changes in your daughters brain. They often work for a while and then stop working, but you then can't get off. You have to try a different drug, and then another and then another. This site is full of such stories. Please, please, please, watch this video. It's a little long, but he explains what's going on really well

It's by Robert Whitaker from Harvard.

Originally Posted by rebecca1938

What other strategies other than the drugs can I try with her to help her?
Many thanks again. I am overwhelmed by the responses, and it is so more than helpful having opinions by others who have insight. I felt so alone.

I think that there are lots of great options. Most of these work better than antidepressants and are great for your health anyway. I made an outline of what I think is the best plan here:

http://forums.psychcentral.com/4162657-post74.html

While I think I know great things to do, what I don't know is how to convince your daughter to try them.

- vital

[Middlemarcher]

I agree with BioAdoptMom that this does not sound like just depression, and that you should seek a second opinion.

I have read in your past posts that you have a very difficult mother- was she ever diagnosed with any mental disorder? Bipolar and borderline personality disorder both have a genetic component, for example.

I also want to add that I have dealt with depression off and on since I was quite young. I was anti-med for a long time and refused to try any. I finally got on meds 2 years ago at age 30, and I really regret not doing so sooner. They've dramatically improved my quality of life. I have a bipolar boyfriend, 37 years old, for whom no amount of alternative strategies is anywhere near as useful as meds are. Just saying, I think you ought to keep an open mind as to meds, and consider that perhaps she is just not on the right medication yet.

[rebecca1938]

Originally Posted by Middlemarcher

I agree with BioAdoptMom that this does not sound like just depression, and that you should seek a second opinion.

I have read in your past posts that you have a very difficult mother- was she ever diagnosed with any mental disorder? Bipolar and borderline personality disorder both have a genetic component, for example.

I also want to add that I have dealt with depression off and on since I was quite young. I was anti-med for a long time and refused to try any. I finally got on meds 2 years ago at age 30, and I really regret not doing so sooner. They've dramatically improved my quality of life. I have a bipolar boyfriend, 37 years old, for whom no amount of alternative strategies is anywhere near as useful as meds are. Just saying, I think you ought to keep an open mind as to meds, and consider that perhaps she is just not on the right medication yet.

Thanks again for these last 2 replies. I looked at they symptoms of BPD and Bipolar, and none of them seem to fit her at all. I also know my mother has issues, but she wasn't diagnosed with anything and when I look at the symptoms thinking of her, again none of them fit. Let me try and describe what I see in my DD and maybe someone might be able to hazard a guess what it may be.

1. She always had a strong reaction to be doing told what to do. Her reaction was not at a level of that which was being asked of her. e.g. 'brush your teeth' was enough to promote a tantrum and 'no you can't have a soda' became enough for an outburst, and her telling me its unfair and she's moving out when she's 16 because I'm so cruel to her.
2. She was always overly negative about how she perceives her life to be. Her opinion of how awful her life is is nowhere near how bad the reality is. *Is that depression?
3. She blames anyone and everyone EXCEPT herself if things go wrong. I can be someting as simple as tripping over something, to something more serious. The chain of events will always lead her to manipulate the situation to be able to blame someone else. *I failed that test becaue yout ook my laptop at 10pm and I couldn't study and more, instead of, oh I guess I could have studied earlier...
4. She lies and manipulates to get whatever she wants. She is So sneaky. I'll tell you this one and this one may not be dangerous, but it stil gives you an indication of how she lies to get the end result she wants. She is supposed to hand her cell phone in at 10pm. One night at 10.10 i still don't have it. I ask her where it is and she lies to me and says 'I don't actually know.' I know her well enough to know this is not the truth, so I do the emergency ring tone on it to find it, and as we search her room, she says to me, why are you helping me, I can find it myself. She wanted me out the room because she had stashed the cell in a drawer and didn't want to be caught out in her lies.
5. She has always acted as if she has the same amount of authority as an adult, therefore she gets very upset when she is told to do something by an adult. She has always responded like another adult when talking to her parents, lacking the respect that a child usually has for their parents role.
6. Socially, she is unaware of what is appropriate or not. She has caused loads of dramas, by telling people things she should not have told them, and she doesn't seem to understand why it was wrong. She makes these mistakes over and over and doesn't seem to learn from them.
7. She has sensory issues with clothing. This has lessened over time, but as a young child she refused to wear jeans because they felt too hard or rough and she used to wear a dress with a thing that needed tied at the back, and we could never tie it tight enough for her.
8. She is srgumentative and likes to provoke. She seems to enjoy it if she gets a reaction.
9. She hardly eats any food, again, kind of sensory. She has a handful of foods she will eat and she won't even try one bite of a new food.
10. She doesn't sleep well, but is unwilling to put in place the things told to her to do to help with this.
11. She listens to no-one. There have been loads of people who have given her advice about all aspects of life. She listens, then she does what she wants. Even her counselor, who has given her advice about eating etc. She walks out the office with no intention of following through. Or exercise. She was told to do some, but I go walking and running and she would rather not do that, so as a result she does no exercise.
12. She is the strongest willed person I have ever met. If she doesn't want to eat a food presented to her, she would go hungry rather than eat it. Same with everything else. If she doesn't want to do it, she isn't doing it. When she was younger and did the AR reading program, she needed more points, so I told her we would not be going out until she read a chapter. She sat there, defiant, and would not read it, and didn't care that she missed out on going out.

Are any of these things a pattern of a certain condition...?
I get that I need a second opinion. I just don't know where to turn, since we have been sending her to a counselor and a psychiatrist. I don't understand what is going and and I'm worried that this will never change....
A doctor mentioned ODD (oppositional defiance disorder)once before, but what's the treatment for that!? In fact, I was going to take her to a nutritionist and the doc said don't waste your time because whatever the nutritionist tells her to do, when you get home you'll say black and she'll say white and it'll just be another thing for her to argue about...

I need help.

[vital]

Originally Posted by rebecca1938

Thanks again for these last 2 replies. I looked at they symptoms of BPD and Bipolar, and none of them seem to fit her at all. I also know my mother has issues, but she wasn't diagnosed with anything and when I look at the symptoms thinking of her, again none of them fit. Let me try and describe what I see in my DD and maybe someone might be able to hazard a guess what it may be.

1. She always had a strong reaction to be doing told what to do. Her reaction was not at a level of that which was being asked of her. e.g. 'brush your teeth' was enough to promote a tantrum and 'no you can't have a soda' became enough for an outburst, and her telling me its unfair and she's moving out when she's 16 because I'm so cruel to her.
2. She was always overly negative about how she perceives her life to be. Her opinion of how awful her life is is nowhere near how bad the reality is. *Is that depression?
3. She blames anyone and everyone EXCEPT herself if things go wrong. I can be someting as simple as tripping over something, to something more serious. The chain of events will always lead her to manipulate the situation to be able to blame someone else. *I failed that test becaue yout ook my laptop at 10pm and I couldn't study and more, instead of, oh I guess I could have studied earlier...
4. She lies and manipulates to get whatever she wants. She is So sneaky. I'll tell you this one and this one may not be dangerous, but it stil gives you an indication of how she lies to get the end result she wants. She is supposed to hand her cell phone in at 10pm. One night at 10.10 i still don't have it. I ask her where it is and she lies to me and says 'I don't actually know.' I know her well enough to know this is not the truth, so I do the emergency ring tone on it to find it, and as we search her room, she says to me, why are you helping me, I can find it myself. She wanted me out the room because she had stashed the cell in a drawer and didn't want to be caught out in her lies.
5. She has always acted as if she has the same amount of authority as an adult, therefore she gets very upset when she is told to do something by an adult. She has always responded like another adult when talking to her parents, lacking the respect that a child usually has for their parents role.
6. Socially, she is unaware of what is appropriate or not. She has caused loads of dramas, by telling people things she should not have told them, and she doesn't seem to understand why it was wrong. She makes these mistakes over and over and doesn't seem to learn from them.
7. She has sensory issues with clothing. This has lessened over time, but as a young child she refused to wear jeans because they felt too hard or rough and she used to wear a dress with a thing that needed tied at the back, and we could never tie it tight enough for her.
8. She is srgumentative and likes to provoke. She seems to enjoy it if she gets a reaction.
9. She hardly eats any food, again, kind of sensory. She has a handful of foods she will eat and she won't even try one bite of a new food.
10. She doesn't sleep well, but is unwilling to put in place the things told to her to do to help with this.
11. She listens to no-one. There have been loads of people who have given her advice about all aspects of life. She listens, then she does what she wants. Even her counselor, who has given her advice about eating etc. She walks out the office with no intention of following through. Or exercise. She was told to do some, but I go walking and running and she would rather not do that, so as a result she does no exercise.
12. She is the strongest willed person I have ever met. If she doesn't want to eat a food presented to her, she would go hungry rather than eat it. Same with everything else. If she doesn't want to do it, she isn't doing it. When she was younger and did the AR reading program, she needed more points, so I told her we would not be going out until she read a chapter. She sat there, defiant, and would not read it, and didn't care that she missed out on going out.

Are any of these things a pattern of a certain condition...?
I get that I need a second opinion. I just don't know where to turn, since we have been sending her to a counselor and a psychiatrist. I don't understand what is going and and I'm worried that this will never change....
A doctor mentioned ODD (oppositional defiance disorder)once before, but what's the treatment for that!? In fact, I was going to take her to a nutritionist and the doc said don't waste your time because whatever the nutritionist tells her to do, when you get home you'll say black and she'll say white and it'll just be another thing for her to argue about...

I need help.

Hi Rebecca,

It's hard to tell without being there, and I am not a professional, but I do have several guesses/ideas.

0) Plain old depression as mentioned in my earlier post.

1) You might want show the list above to your docs and ask if Aspergers syndrome is a possibility. Your points 1, 6, 7, 10, 11 and 12 make me think that that might be what's going on. 1 and 12 remind me very much of a friend of mine's daughter who similarly had an absolute iron will about seemingly arbitrary things and who was eventually diagnosed with Aspergers.

2) You might want to think about the functional medicine approach. Notice in this video, that extreme behavior problems, can be caused by seemingly unrelated medical problems in other areas of the body.

For instance, about 21:23 into the above video, Dr. Hyman describes a 6 year old girl who was an extreme behavior problem, did poorly in school, bit and hit other children, etc. This all turned out to be all due to a problem with her gut microbiome and was cleared up with antibiotics. Your point 9 about food makes me slightly suspicious that something is going on with her digestion.

3) The only thing I know about "ODD" is from it's wikipedia page

Oppositional defiant disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but they do mention that unintentional positive reinforcement is often a problem. You might want to ask your docs about that.

You haven't mentioned anything about your daughter's friends or lack of friends. If she has no friends, that suggests 0, 1 or 2 are more likely than 3. If she can get along well with others, it suggests 3 more than 0, 1 or 2.

When looking for a counselor or therapist, I would describe your daughter to them and ask if the therapist has already had success with someone like that. Try to find someone who has seen this before and has succeeded with someone like your daughter already.

- vital

[BioAdoptMom3]

Hidden Symptoms | Childhood Bipolar Disorder Signs | Bipolar Child Support

You might want to check out the above link. It lists subtle symptoms of childhood bipolar. There are some things in there that seem to apply to your DD based on what you have shared. Being worse on anti-depressants, having difficulty sleeping and sensory integration issues (sensitivity to touch, sound, etc.) are extremely common in childhood bipolar. Mine also, like yours, has started things she excels at and has dropped them. She is so musically and athletically talented, but has dropped band, chorus and softball, even knowing she had a coach from a college not far from where we live watching her during her freshman year last year! They do start things, go to town with them, possibly because of mania, then quit when the lapse into depression. This certainly does not mean your DD has bipolar as well, only a doctor can determine that, but I would bring these things to the attention of her doctor and therapist and get their professional opinions.

Good luck and know you are not alone! We parents who have children with mental illnesses are right there with you !

Nancy

[CactusK]

Your daughter's behaviour sounds similar to mine. My DD is 9. She got out of control one night in November, the crisis intervention team was called, and she went to the hospital ER as she was talking about killing us and herself. She was admitted and spent 8 days there, which is pretty much the minimum for behavioural health.
She was discharged on anti-depressant medication.

Our family psychiatrist (my son has ADHD) said he was surprised they let her go so soon- it was the same behaviour after she left. He says she is bi-polar and prescribed Risperdal (his 1st choice). My DH is still deciding whether he will allow her to take it. He's in serious denial. She just about destroyed her room this weekend ( I was gone for 27 hours on business) and did a lot of other naughty things, including running away a couple of times, and bought a lighter- told DH she was going to burn the house down.

I think everyone with a child in crisis doubts their parenting skills. We're all doing the best we know how to do. I certainly didn't have any training for this!

[Mygrandjourney]

Hi Again: After re-reading your initial posts, it sounds like you and your husband are at different places regarding your daughter. Am I correct?

I'm asking because if she is able to split you and your husband (split meaning hearing no from Mom and then asking Dad and getting yes or vice-versa), that is a recipe for insanity in the household.
Based on my experience, you and your husband really need to be aligned on this. Getting professional consultation for this alone may work wonders. The outcome would either be whatever Mom says is backed up by Dad (or vice-versa) or one parent "abdicates" and leaves the discipline and rule making to the other. In any case, I would recommend that you and your husband find time to discuss what your bottom lines are and what is open for negotiation.

[jgmk55]

I hope things are going better for your daughter. I have been thinking of you a lot.