[leomama]

Hello all, I'm writing tonight to ask your opinion on this issue. There is a belief in the abuse community that narcissists get worse with therapy and medication does not help. However there is a different belief in the personality disorder awareness community that if a person seeks out help they can get better. I am in the latter camp. There is also a lot of controversy about how a narcissist identifies themselves. I have read that if you ask a narcissist if they are a narcissist they will answer in the affirmative.


In my case my father is a narcissist and he gave me fleas that I was treated for. My father will never seek help. His stepfather was a psychiatrist and his attitude about psychiatry is that he is not going to pay someone to listen to him talk. He mocks my reading of "self help" and "new age" books.


Last fall a therapist gave me the diagnostic criteria for NPD after several sessions where I had discussed how frustrating my communication with my father is.


Here is where the twist comes in, I have c-PTSD and if any of you are familiar with Pete Walker's work on c-PTSD he identifies four defense mechanisms that people with c-PTSD have: fight, flight, fawn and freeze. He calls the fight mechanism a narcissistic defense mechanism. In the past that has been my go to defense mechanism although currently I am able to stay in the center of my feelings when I am triggered.


Also I was reading on the BPD forum that a couple of people are reluctant to identify their friends or partners as having BPD traits even though their traits are very obvious to the unaided eye. The whole premise of narcissistic abuse recovery is based on the victim identifying the perpetrator as narcissistic.


Does anyone else see the paradox in this? If we go with the premise that we are not doctors and we can not diagnose others and that narcissists can not identify they are narcissist or will not seek help what does that say about the narcissistic abuse recovery community?

[hazn]

Why is it important for you to label your dad with NPD? Jerks are jerks, whether they meet the criteria for a PD or not. There are plenty of unpleasant personalities who don't meet the criteria for a PD.

Whether someone meets 4 of the criteria or all, doesn't make a difference. The question is, do you want to engage with this person?

[Atypical_Disaster]

People with NPD can get better. I am one of those people. I'm a very different person than I was when I entered treatment for the disorder over three years ago. I don't meet all nine of the criteria for the disorder like I once did. I still have a lot of work to do, but I am not who I once was.

Does anyone else see the paradox in this? If we go with the premise that we are not doctors and we can not diagnose others and that narcissists can not identify they are narcissist or will not seek help what does that say about the narcissistic abuse recovery community?

Yes, and this paradox has infuriated me for all the years I've been involved in the mental health community.

Sometimes having a label can help a victim because it can shed light on the perpetrator's behavior. But it can also easily be harmful to give it a label, because not everyone who's abusive has NPD or another of the cluster B personality disorders. I think that hey, if labeling an abuser in your life as a narcissist helps you heal then go for it. If it's just causing you more pain, then maybe you want to look at the issue again from a different perspective.

I admit I don't know much about the narcissistic abuse recovery community for obvious reasons. I'm a narcissist, so needless to say I'm not welcome in those waters. But I have observed it from the outside and I think it's rife with problems.

This paradox locks people in a double bind that I have never appreciated. Many people assume that someone with NPD will never admit they have it and if someone does admit it that means they aren't a "real" narcissist. That is of course, total BS. I'm fully aware that I'm a narcissist, and I sought out treatment and I'm still in treatment for it. But it lead to problems in getting treatment for a long time, because many therapists I saw at first refused to actually treat me for my NPD because I'm "too self-aware to be a full-blown narcissist" when I clearly was/am one. I've also run into this attitude online as well, but that didn't matter as much because nobody online is responsible for my treatment.

The whole thing just makes me raise my eyebrows and go, "tsk, tsk" these days.

[here today]

Originally Posted by leomama

. . .

Here is where the twist comes in, I have c-PTSD and if any of you are familiar with Pete Walker's work on c-PTSD he identifies four defense mechanisms that people with c-PTSD have: fight, flight, fawn and freeze. He calls the fight mechanism a narcissistic defense mechanism. In the past that has been my go to defense mechanism although currently I am able to stay in the center of my feelings when I am triggered.

. . .

Does anyone else see the paradox in this? If we go with the premise that we are not doctors and we can not diagnose others and that narcissists can not identify they are narcissist or will not seek help what does that say about the narcissistic abuse recovery community?

I liked your identification of the 4 defense mechanisms. My personal view is that the narcissistic abuse recovery community is very judgmental. It may be helpful at a certain stage when someone is dealing with emotional trauma from their past but not, ultimately, in "moving on". Maybe society as a whole is kind of stuck at this point at the moment.

Judgmentalism is, to me, a kind of fight response. Yes, to live as a whole, society may or must hold some common "judgments". But judgmentalism is, to me, is judgment out of balance and, hence, aggressive. Women are particularly prone to this type of aggression, called "relational aggression" in the literature. It's particularly, in a somewhat "raw", developing form?, evident in cliques in adolescent girls.

And you see the result -- rejection and exclusionism -- in the typical narcissistic abuse recovery community.

I like this forum because it is, right now, a kind of "recovery from narcissism" community. Whether it's fleas or a full-blown disorder. Can that lead to "recovery"? I don't know. To my knowledge it's never been tried before. I don't have NPD but here I can examine my narcissism, which the mental health community and society as a whole seems to want to throw out entirely. Seems to me it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[leomama]

Originally Posted by hazn

Why is it important for you to label your dad with NPD? Jerks are jerks, whether they meet the criteria for a PD or not. There are plenty of unpleasant personalities who don't meet the criteria for a PD.

Whether someone meets 4 of the criteria or all, doesn't make a difference. The question is, do you want to engage with this person?

My former therapist labeled him as having traits .

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[leomama]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

People with NPD can get better. I am one of those people. I'm a very different person than I was when I entered treatment for the disorder over three years ago. I don't meet all nine of the criteria for the disorder like I once did. I still have a lot of work to do, but I am not who I once was.


Yes, and this paradox has infuriated me for all the years I've been involved in the mental health community.

Sometimes having a label can help a victim because it can shed light on the perpetrator's behavior. But it can also easily be harmful to give it a label, because not everyone who's abusive has NPD or another of the cluster B personality disorders. I think that hey, if labeling an abuser in your life as a narcissist helps you heal then go for it. If it's just causing you more pain, then maybe you want to look at the issue again from a different perspective.

I admit I don't know much about the narcissistic abuse recovery community for obvious reasons. I'm a narcissist, so needless to say I'm not welcome in those waters. But I have observed it from the outside and I think it's rife with problems.

This paradox locks people in a double bind that I have never appreciated. Many people assume that someone with NPD will never admit they have it and if someone does admit it that means they aren't a "real" narcissist. That is of course, total BS. I'm fully aware that I'm a narcissist, and I sought out treatment and I'm still in treatment for it. But it lead to problems in getting treatment for a long time, because many therapists I saw at first refused to actually treat me for my NPD because I'm "too self-aware to be a full-blown narcissist" when I clearly was/am one. I've also run into this attitude online as well, but that didn't matter as much because nobody online is responsible for my treatment.

The whole thing just makes me raise my eyebrows and go, "tsk, tsk" these days.

Thank you I appreciate that. When I said abuse community I should've clarified narcissistic abuse recovery community.

I think the word narc is used as a put down and insult these days.

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[leomama]

I do know a community that thinks recovery is possible, but its not a narcissistic abuse recovery community. Its funny to me when people accuse me of being a narc because I know I had fleas, I know they were treated, I know I have PTSD, and sometimes when I feel threatened I want to fight. So I guess I can say from personal experience I've had the label narc or traits of the disorder slapped on me by people who want to put me down. I can also say that telling someone "you're a narc" does not help them at all. Its like that song "you're a jerk" by new boyz. These days I only let professionals label people, but if a professional I have worked with does label a person I've told them about, I'm going to trust their judgment.

[here today]

Originally Posted by leomama

I do know a community that thinks recovery is possible, but its not a narcissistic abuse recovery community. . .

What community is that? Online or in-person?

[leomama]

It is a network that is on the ground, but it also has an online presence.

[here today]

Originally Posted by leomama

It is a network that is on the ground, but it also has an online presence.

Could you please post the name or website address? PM me if you prefer. Hmm. . .maybe posting is against community rules where PM's may not be?

[leomama]

Originally Posted by here today

Could you please post the name or website address? PM me if you prefer. Hmm. . .maybe posting is against community rules where PM's may not be?

I'll pm you, don't know the community rules so I'll review those later.

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The victims of narcissistic abuse are often codependents, who try to "fix" the narcissist. Understanding that the narcissist will never change, and that the abuse will only get worse, is an "awakening", and a possibility for the codependent to try and stop obsessing about the narcissist. Instead they could/should focus on themselves, and their own personal growth.

Imagine if instead the codependents would be told that narcissists can get better. In codependish, that means they are fixable. Hooray, a lifelong project for the codependent! Absolutely nothing would change for them.

I don't know to what extent people with personality disorders can change. People in general don't seem to like to change themselves, so I imagine it must be even harder for a narcissist.

Is it judgmental to call the narcissist an abuser, when they've been emotionally abusing you? Is it harsh to say that the "narc" will never change?

Most likely they will never change. And even if a person with NPD changes for the better, they will still be gaslighting you. They will still be abusive. And a codependent is super-vulnerable to narcissistic abuse, so be very careful.

[leomama]

I hear what you are saying, it gets more complicated when a person has codependent and narcissistic traits from growing up with a narcissist. I also hear what you are saying about it not being good for the codependent to hear that narcissism can be "fixed" but what about the narcissist themselves? What if they want to get better? I've heard that there are more people who are now self identifying as narcissists seeking help.

In regards to codependency, that's very easy to deal with. There is a 12 step program of recovery that is very effective in bringing a codependent to a state of mental and emotional sobriety.

My ex will never change. He won't because he cannot or will not accept he has flaws like all people do. That would shatter his outward persona and he is too insecure to let that go. It's sad because he does have some good qualities. I have no regrets in divorcing him. It may have saved my life. (He has been officially diagnosed as a narcissist.)

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

People with NPD can get better. I am one of those people. I'm a very different person than I was when I entered treatment for the disorder over three years ago. I don't meet all nine of the criteria for the disorder like I once did. I still have a lot of work to do, but I am not who I once was.

I have noticed you have changed just by reading your posts over time. I didn't feel it was my place to pry...but I could tell. I'm very happy for you. You seem to be in a happier place. Good for you! xo

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by rainyday107

I have noticed you have changed just by reading your posts over time. I didn't feel it was my place to pry...but I could tell. I'm very happy for you. You seem to be in a happier place. Good for you! xo

I deeply appreciate you writing this post. It means more to me than I can put into words. I am in a far healthier place than I was even just a year ago. I feel like a human being and that's not intolerable for me like it was three years ago. I feel genuinely comfortable in my own skin now in a way that I never have before. It's been frightening at times because it all feels so vulnerable, but it's been more than worth the temporary fear to keep pushing through in my healing/recovery.

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I deeply appreciate you writing this post. It means more to me than I can put into words. I am in a far healthier place than I was even just a year ago. I feel like a human being and that's not intolerable for me like it was three years ago. I feel genuinely comfortable in my own skin now in a way that I never have before. It's been frightening at times because it all feels so vulnerable, but it's been more than worth the temporary fear to keep pushing through in my healing/recovery.

Oh, I'm glad! I didn't want to be nosy but I've seen a HUGE difference. You did a lot of hard work, I admire your strength. You deserve to be comfortable in your own skin and that's great you achieved it. I can tell.

[leomama]

I appreciate this thread as it seems NPD is the latest cultural bogeyman and now all of a sudden everybody's been abused by a narcissist . That's why I only talk about people who have been professionally identified as having traits. Whenever anyone even hints at me I'm a narcissist I walk away because I like you have put years of hard work into overcoming my traits. I'll not be having my day dictated by someone who wants to put me down.

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