[pachyderm]

Every once in a while these days I read something about claims that at least some anti-depressants increase the risk of suicide in those who take them, especially in younger people. In fact I think it has become necessary in the U.S. to include statements of that risk on the labels accompanying those drugs.

It occurs to me that maybe, if there is such a risk, it is not the drug's chemicals that are causing this, but the realization by the recipient of the anti-depressant that ONCE AGAIN the person is being given a brushoff and that no one is actually going to listen to them and what things in real life may be causing them to be despondent.

I have not heard anyone else come up with this tentative idea and I expect it to be dismissed, especially by "professionals" who do not respect anyone not a recognized authority.

[Fuzzybear]

I think you've made a good point - when people in pain are, or feel, once again brushed off, by people who are supposed and paid to care .....it could well factor into increased suicidal feelings. (It did and sometimes still does for me ..)

In the UK, more doctors are realising the benefits of therapy though.....(not before time!)

I expect that I'd be fobbed off by the NHS GP if I even mentioned the weight gain which is extremely well documented on the particular meds I've been taking!

[kebsfroggy]

It's possible I guess. I'm not sure that risk is limited to just the young.

As Fuzzy mentioned there is the side effect of weight gain that affect many too.

The dosage on anti-d usually starts out low and gradually built up over time. So the pdoc is aware that minimum dosage is not going to have a possitive effect.

If in that same "time" you also gain 20+ lbs. The person's personal perception of themself in probably in the toilet by that time.

IMO there is a good reason there is a increase risk of suicide.

Yes, I think you have a really good point.
At times when one reaches out and then feels pushed aside-- it only adds more fog to their already clouded mind. I wish more doctors would just LISTEN-- that can have great relief for so many people.

I agree too that gaining weight could also bring someone even lower than they already are.

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I have not heard anyone else come up with this tentative idea and I expect it to be dismissed, especially by "professionals" who do not respect anyone not a recognized authority.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post"> well, I know of some in the field that believe and think the very same way you do.... heres' a link to one site of a couple doctors that will agree with your pondering-- one is a doctor of psychology and the other doctor of psychiatry...... psychtruth

Hope you keep on questioning--- it's the way we -- humanity-- evolve.

mandy

[Perna]

It's based on actual studies and some drugs are worse than others, etc. It's thought to be caused because children/adolescents are "different" chemically/biologically since they're still growing, etc. and what's depression and what isn't isn't as clearcut yet. But it wouldn't just be adolescents if it was a brushoff thing as adults would have that equally?

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Psychiat...ession/tb/3880

I think the level of risk from med side effects is related to whether or not they are accompanied with other therapies including talk and behavioural modification.

One can not be 'lazy' about their recovery. Meds alone can do more harm than good sometimes if not respected. I would suggest the reason problems arise with young people more than others is because they often are not given the right therapies and support to go along with the meds. They are often just given meds and no other treatment. When the positive effects start to weaken the hopelessness and aloneness is magnified and the despiration wins the battle. Young people are less likely to ask for help a second time.

Meds need to be taken seriously. I've observed people who take a battery of meds but continue to use street drugs and alcohol....continue to neglect their diet and exercise.... hit and miss with other therapies and wonder what is wrong with their meds. They will take the time to go back again and again to docs to adjust their meds but they don't go the extra mile to change their lifestyle and behaviours. They expect the meds to solve all their problems and go looking for new meds when they don't. They mix meds and over medicate with meds and wonder why they are not getting better. Meanwhile they have no routine in their days. They don't take care of their bodies and they don't exercise their minds. They live in a fog and wonder why they can't see any light at the end of the tunnel. Take a pill to pass out. Sadly this scenerio isn't as rare as we would hope and it certainly puts those people at a very high risk of suicide. They are not only clouded by their illness but now clouded by the meds.

I'm med resistant myself and have had to learn how to cope with my symptoms without the aid of drugs. I've been the med route but once the initial stabilizing benifits had been achieved the meds became another drug that I abuse. I'd used street drugs before then and maybe my body or my disposition was predisposed to seeking a high from any drug I took. My mother died from a drug overdose and I've used meds to suicide 3 times in my life so there is all sorts of baggage attached to psych drugs and me. I don't trust doctors much given my mom's history and given my own experiences of doctors who are too quick to pass me a sample of this med or that without doing enough work to make me feel they are matching my needs to their meds. The truth for me is that I can't manage meds of any kind without abusing them or me in some form or fashion. I can't handle the responsibility it would seem and I don't have confidence in the doctors to make the right choices for me.

As a consequence I put extra effort into changing those factors in my life that trigger or feed my illness. I'm forced to be more attentive to my overall health and to honouring my boundaries. To engage in postitive self talk throughout each day and rely on my faith to give me focus and hope. I spend a lot of time learning and practising new coping skills all the time. I work hard to make my life more routine even though I covet to be spontaneous. I attend to my sleeping problems with special care. I need routine to keep me centred so I work hard to stick with some consistency in my days.

For those who do take psych meds... young and older... I think its important they understand that they should never be seen as a life long treatment plan. They are meant to manage crisis periods and provide the extra boost one needs, to stabilize and do the other work one needs to do --- spiritually, physically, mentally and emotionally.

Taking care of one's physical health with good diet and exercise needs to be on the top of everyone's list of treatment strategies. Practising relaxation techniques and learning how to cope with warped thinking and understanding our triggers and how to balance the feelings are what need to be done for our entire life time.

Meds can't do that for us. They can help put us in a space where its possible to engage in long term healing practises but they are not a substitute for the work that must be done if one is to recover enough to live life to its fullest.

I would venture young people understand this reality less than others and are therefore more vulnerable to the inevitable inadequacy of drug only treatment.

Like everything in life.... it comes down to balance. Some of this, some of that and a lot of effort from within.

Thanks Perma for posting that report. Seems there are still a lot of unknowns about the issue and the influence of factors not included in the study.

For me the best news in the report is highlighting the need for close monitoring....

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
"Explain to interested patients that this study supports careful clinical monitoring during the treatment of depressed children and adolescents with antidepressant medications."

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Had they added the importance of other concurrent therapies and training I'd have felt a little like things were pointing in the right direction.

People really need to get that meds alone can not lead to long term recovery. It scares me how broadly meds are being used on children without careful diagnosis and monitoring. Too often its neglect and abuse that fuels suicide attempts in children more than it is a reaction to drugs. Watching eyes would see but too often no one is watching the child closely enough to see the signs in time. So sad.

[pachyderm]

> heres' a link to one site of a couple doctors that will agree with your pondering-- one is a doctor of psychology and the other doctor of psychiatry...... psychtruth

Interesting. There do seem to be more of these in the U.S. as well as in the U.K. than there were when I was younger. It is taking its time! Maybe there is still enough of that left for me.

I have not been helped by medications personally (and I've had a lot of them). And yes, what I said originally should hold for adults as well as children. I think the warnings for children have been publicized more lately in the U.S., and they don't seem to draw the same lessons for adults. I guess they figure we can sink or swim better than children.

[Peacemaker]

Hiya Pachy,

As a note of interest, if you read the side effects to many anti-depressants, suicide is listed. Kind of paradoxical, huh?

Also, ODing and committing suicide is virtually impossible when using a SSRI for suicidal reasons.

Tri-cyclic anti-depressants are a completely different animal. One can OD and die from an overdos of Elavil, for example.

Many pdocs always use and SSRI or an SSNRI as a first line defense in fighting depression. Usually, only after existing possibilities have been exhausted, do the pdocs Rx a Tri-cyclic anti-depressant. Another interesting point is that most Tri-cyclics are weight gainers as well as some anti-psychotics such as Zyprexa. Remeron, often used as a sleep aid, is another notorious weight gainer.

I learned the hard way. UGH

Great question. Thanks for asking

Be Blessed,
Peacemaker (Sherri)

[pachyderm]

Peacemaker:

> if you read the side effects to many anti-depressants, suicide is listed. Kind of paradoxical, huh?

Exactly. Why would this happen?

Incidentally, I disagree with the decision to move this thread from General to Drug Questions. I did not post it to discuss the merits of various drugs, but to raise the question of whether they are used too much as a substitute for listening to patients.

I remember someone telling me that one of the side effects of Zyprexa was death.

That seems like a pretty darn big side effect. Uh? What?

I still took it because it helped immensely, but I am now 100 pounds heavier than I was.

agitation apparently. often people want to take the SSRI's 'this will cure me!' so they take 'em and find that they get all jittery and restless. moving moving moving. not a 'gee i must be getting better i'm starting to want to do things now' but i leg jiggling incessant moving kind of an anxiety response.

moving moving jumping off of a building. restless thoughts round and round. some people say that while they might have contemplated suicide before the quality of the thoughts on SSRI'S is different. more incessant. faster. round and round.

of course the drug companies have said that SSRI's might result in an increase in suicide because it gives people energy (a part of getting better) that they then have to use and they decide to act on suicidal thoughts they already had.

sceptics / critics say that the nature and quality of the agitation is different from 'getting better' and the nature and quality of the suicidal thinking changes too.

so... i think it is to do with the physiological effects of the medication. most people start to feel a little agitated when their body adjusts to an SSRI. some people just have a more intense reaction than others.

[animals_mom]

To add to this discussion, I think it is also hard to come up with a clear diagnosis on young people (children and teens). For instance, bipolar is sometimes diagnosed as ADD or depression... if the diagnosis is wrong chances are the meds to treat the illness are also wrong. I've witnessed this first hand. My teenage son was initially diagnosed as suffering from depression, anxiety, and add. Was given prescriptions to treat the diagnosis. After a few months he attempted suicide. The meds weren't helping. He was finally diagnosed as Bipolar and the meds he is now on are helping him tremondously.

[AAAAA]

The first time I started taking antidepressants I had an excellent plain English type of doctor. She said that when you start taking the antidepressants and start to feel a little better, but still depressed and suicidal but you have energy that you did not have when you were laying in bed too depressed to move, you may be more inclined to carry out the act of suicide because you finally have the energy to do so, whereas before you started taking the antidepressant, you had no energy to carry out the act.

I've worded it poorly, but that is the jist of how it was explained to me. Years and years ago, long before the warning for children and teens, so there must have been information out there that this might be a problem.

[jefftele]

while on seroxat i felt such anger erupt in me that i scared myself and others, if that anger was towards myself then i'm sure it could have resulted in suicide. when i told me doc he changed them instantly .i don't think that docs really know what is going on ,its been said that ssris and ad's are a sledgehammer to crack a nut ,i agree