[Kiya]

Mouse's post got things stirring for me and this thought occured:

I've had a thought (for all us attached types).
Always in my fam, the dad would go off into towering rages, the mom would get sulky. Always it was my job to soothe them, to make it better.
We want our t's to do the same thing - yes? to soothe us?
I remember once i started learning some of this stuff on changing how i was in relationships that the next time i saw the dad and (of course) something went wrong - I didn't soothe him, didn't rescue him. I sat calmly by, waiting for the storm to blow over. That was the day he decided that he was a failure - everything he touched fell to pieces. I didn't soothe him. I let him be "the adult" and handle it. That was in 06. then the other night, I was in an "i need rescuing" place, and T didn't rescue me. I had just told her about my dream the previous night where she had made the comment, "I don't appear to be around when you need me". I just now put them together that since the way I learned that ppl are cared for is by "rescuing them" from their dispair, then it makes sense why I would be upset with T for not rushing to my side when I felt that dispair. Which then increases my sense of abandonment.
So really, it isn't about T at all (damn, i so wanted it to be), it is about my preception of how i feel I am supposed to be cared about. It isn't that T doesn't care, she's letting me be the adult (when did I become an adult?!?) and care for myself - standing by there as support when I am ready to tell her what I need, and then she can see if she is able to provide that or not.
*scratches head*.
This is far more complicated than I thought - but I feel good in finally identifying it (for now, anway).

[Luce]

Very insightful post, Kiya.

This is veering off slightly, but I see a lot of 'rescuing' in chat here too. I have learned not to rescue. I can empathise, and I can support, but I don't / won't 'rescue'. Ultimately I think supporting others to meet their own needs and/or come to their own solutions is far more empowering for them.

I remember doing the same thing with my father too. When I stopped rescuing him, he eventually stopped expecting me to, and learned new ways of interacting with me. Funny how that works.

I also no longer expect anyone to rescue me. I did hope/long for/want that for the longest time. Life is so much easier and more empowering without that want driving me.

[scooter62487]

Wow I'm sorry to hear that. I hope everything is doing okay now though.

[MissCharlotte]

Kiya,

What an awesome post. It resonated in my big head because of the lack of brains bobbling around these days
I decided yesterday I was totally PO'd at T. This came as a result of reading some Object Relations Theory stuff, which is logical but much colder than attachment theory. I decided that T was a "COLD OBJECT RELATIONS DUDE" AND I was hopelessly attached. I imagined stomping around his office yelling at him about how therapy was bullcrap and I feel as though I had been duped into falling for him. It wasn't until I read your post that I realized the whole thing was a fantasy re-enactment--that I was seeking soothing--not wanting to be the adult that T sees in front of him each week. I also see the need for soothing with my H. Sometimes he expresses dismay or disappointment and holds in his feelings and it's up to me to guess what's wrong so I can soothe him. The heck with that.

Oh boy, so now where are we--naked unsoothed infants in adult bodies?

[skeksi]

Kiya, this is such an insight! I have seen the same pattern with my family. Since I've been in therapy, I've been much more able to not rescue my mother and instead empathize and encourage her to solve her own problems. I do this with friends, too, and I feel much less taxed by these relationships.

I hadn't thought about how I might be expecting T do rescue me, though, or soothe me...this is good food for thought, so thanks.

Kiya, that is really good stuff! I've been reading up on narcissism - turns out that, as T remarked off-handedly the other day, my mother is a classic narcissist, and I always was the one to soothe her. I'm not yet at the point with my T of allowing those emotions out into the room and letting her soothe me - we're still building the relationship. But I can see it heading in that direction, and it makes total sense.

This came as a result of reading some Object Relations Theory stuff, which is logical but much colder than attachment theory.

MissCharlotte, what were you reading, if I may ask? My T practices object relations therapy, and I've been wanting to read up on it.

[Kiya]

"I also no longer expect anyone to rescue me. I did hope/long for/want that for the longest time. Life is so much easier and more empowering without that want driving me. "

Yep, Luce. I'm not quite there yet, but I see the path! I do imagine it will be easier and more empowering tho, so I am very glad to have that confirmed. Thanks. Kiya

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

Oh boy, so now where are we--naked unsoothed infants in adult bodies?

HAHahaha! Yeah, pretty much!! LOL. Sometimes that is sure true. I too was so angry at t. T had just talked about "being there" for me and here was LIVING PROOF that she was not!!! All evening i heard myself thinking SEE??!! SEE!!?!? You're NOT there!!!! And -wow- what a mindset change that realization was.
Not sure where I am at now in terms of this and I think today i will be seeing someone from my past who I had totally heaped this "rescue me" role onto big time. I've never been able to be adult with her... and my stomach is in knots about this meeting. I'm just supposed to show up - which makes me even more nervous - in my old church and... WHAT?! act like everything's fine? be the same person i was? I don't know who to be now. And I am done (i hope) with being attached to her. *crosses fingers*. I really hate not knowing who i am supposed to be with ppl.
Thanks for the post, i resonated with everything you said.
Kiya

[Kiya]

"I've been reading up on narcissism - turns out that, as T remarked off-handedly the other day, my mother is a classic narcissist, and I always was the one to soothe her."

Dreamseeker - yeah, this was totally true for my parents as well. In fact, my dad married a woman who "soothed him like i did" (barf!) He told me that when he gets angry she pats his hand like i used to and he felt more calm and it reminded him of me (more barf, as i am dealing with incest from this man) so he thought "I'd better marry this woman."
So this topic has been hitting pretty hard for me in some ways... good stuff, but still difficult, you know?

[ECHOES]

Feeling rescued can feel like the ultimate love and caring. Nothing wrong with wanting those things

T wanting to help you learn to not have to suffer wanting to be rescue when there is no rescue... what a loving and caring thing for her to want for you.

[Kiya]

See, and this is what I am still dealing with with one of my dr's. The little kid parts of me are totally attached and wanting desperately to be rescued (from what, i wonder anymore!?) and then there is the wounded parts that she is good at soothing. And then she goes into professional mode and POOF - it's all gone, the kids feel abandoned, they're crying, some parts are angry at her, I the "adult" self tries to act like nothing is wrong.... what a mess. So now I am avoiding her (just like I did with this woman I am about to go see today *sigh*) because I just don't know how to get near it.

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Feeling rescued can feel like the ultimate love and caring. Nothing wrong with wanting those things

T wanting to help you learn to not have to suffer wanting to be rescue when there is no rescue... what a loving and caring thing for her to want for you.

Wow - the first statement is hard to hear now... "nothing wrong" because it felt so wrong when it was denied for so long. I thought it would be the ultimate love and caring - and it was withheld (i felt) so often. I was feeling almost justified in letting go that hope to be rescued with this new outlook (yet "justified" is often a hardening of the heart). I guess - maybe I have this backwards... you are saying really "nothing wrong with wanting ultimate love and caring" vs. "wanting to be rescued". I nearly got that confused. Ok I am on board now =)

The second statement feels warm and good. Perhaps a balance of all those things is good? (as balance is in nearly all things). Yes, I do know that T cares very much. This is why she wants me to talk about things that I percieve and not hold them in where they brew unrealistic thoughts that are painful. It just takes me sooooooooooo long to process these things.
Thanks Echoes =)

Originally Posted by Kiya

"I've been reading up on narcissism - turns out that, as T remarked off-handedly the other day, my mother is a classic narcissist, and I always was the one to soothe her."

Dreamseeker - yeah, this was totally true for my parents as well. In fact, my dad married a woman who "soothed him like i did" (barf!) He told me that when he gets angry she pats his hand like i used to and he felt more calm and it reminded him of me (more barf, as i am dealing with incest from this man) so he thought "I'd better marry this woman."
So this topic has been hitting pretty hard for me in some ways... good stuff, but still difficult, you know?

Kiya, that is very intense. It sounds like your T is still there to support you but thinks you're strong enough to be taking this next step. Take care of yourself during this time!

[ECHOES]

you are saying really "nothing wrong with wanting ultimate love and caring" vs. "wanting to be rescued".

Yeah.. looking at what we want from outside of us... and seeing what it is about the inside of us. Rescue is about, for me, that someone would love me *that much* that they would take care of me.

As a child, that is exactly what we wanted *and* needed.
The unmet needs.... are still 'there'--there within us and there in that childlike state. There is nothing wrong with wanting those needs to be met, with wanting that love and caring, with mourning that we didn't get it when we needed it then too.

T often tells me we can learn to find ways to have those needs met in other ways, from adults, as an adult. well okay, but I still want you to hug me.. lol

[Kiya]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

T often tells me we can learn to find ways to have those needs met in other ways, from adults, as an adult. well okay, but I still want you to hug me.. lol

((((((((Echoes))))))))))
LOL yep. I do still want her to hug me. and it even feels weird to say that. AND... she would if i asked her for one or just started to give her one. But it isn't the adult self that wants it the lil kids want to just be held and told "everything will be ok, I won't leave you".

OMG i was SOOOOOOOO jealous the other day (not something I often get). I was at an event, T and MD, and DO were there. The gal that works the front desk and I walked in together, and she went up to MD and got a hug. She's MINE! I knew MD first!! LOL A whole YEAR before this other gal!!! I wanted that hug to be MINE!!!! Wow not something I am used to feeling... Though, I am used to NOT feeling, so maybe this is still a step in the right direction?

[Kiya]

Well, I am back from my "meeting" with the woman I used to know. Grrr. Whatever. I knew it would work out this way - glad I had had this lil attachment convo because it bolstered my "I can do this w/o *needing* her" -ness and when she did not do as she suggested (meet with me and talk) but just sent me on my merry way, I chalked it up to "I knew this would happen already, I was nearly set up *again*, nearly drawn in again to this 'I am here for you, I will rescue you, come in and talk with me' bit that always ends up not being what she says it will' THING. I still feel rather stupid since I could hardly sleep at all last night thinking about today, got up, showered, dressed nice (with 3 top changes trying to decide "who" i wanted to present today), ended up with my "shell" on; clothes that give me that hardened, nothing can f*** with me look, and drove alllllllll the way out there to see her for 5 minutes, hand her the papers i needed to, dodge the ppl i really DON'T want to see, drove alllllllllllllll the way home.... and got myself my favorite coffee to reset my slipping mood. So.... i dunno. I knew it, i was prepared, i did it anyway, no losses... Meh. *brush it off, kiya*.
=)

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by MissCharlotte

I also see the need for soothing with my H. Sometimes he expresses dismay or disappointment and holds in his feelings and it's up to me to guess what's wrong so I can soothe him. The heck with that.

I so totally relate to that, MissC. I remember saying to T once that I just didn't want to be around people like my H anymore (MissC--not trying to imply your H is like mine). I didn't want to always have to be guessing why he was upset or displeased or pissed off or whatever, and then guessing what I should do to soothe him and turn his mood or behavior around. So much guesswork, and usually I didn't guess right. I remember saying to T that I just wanted to be around "normal" people who didn't have all these complicated hoops to jump through in order to be with them. But maybe there is no "normal". Maybe most everyone has their own hoops, some just have more or higher ones. And it is up to us to refuse to play games. I have really become a hater of game playing lately. On the other hand, I was characterizing a recent interaction with someone T and I both know as "game playing" and how I hated that. And T said he did not think this person was deliberately trying to play games, but that he was a clumsy communicator and really needed to work on that. So I need to not overinterpret a person's motives. Kiya, you are certainly right when you say that this is all so complicated.

Kiya, it sounds like you survived your meeting and you didn't slip into "rescue me" mode at all. You sounded very independent, very adult.

I really hate not knowing who i am supposed to be with ppl.

I think this is a central goal of therapy for many--to discover who you really are and to bring your outer self in synch with who you have discovered yourself to really be (congruence!). Kiya, it really sounds like you are growing by leaps and bounds.

[Kiya]

Yes, my t's have been trying to get me to understand that I can't "lose" if I'm not "playing the games". Seems harder than that somehow. It really does get old, placating people.

Hey - I've spent the last 4 years studying congruence and working toward that very goal =)

[deliquesce]

i'm a bit confused...

are you saying it's better to not be 'soothed' by our Ts?

pdoc keeps encouraging me to call him at the slightest indication of a problem. partly it is because he can help me contain it, another part is just because he does soothe me. tells me things will be ok, etc.

i used to fight against this a lot, but recently i've just given in. i feel very dependent on him. it is a nice place to be when it works (i.e., when he returns my calls) but it's very difficult to not feel abandoned and not cared for when he doesn't return my calls.

a part of me has been thinking recently that i need to become more independent again - stop relying on others to rescue me and just soldier on myself. but this is the very behaviour that pdoc kept trying to break down in him continually encouraging me to reach out to him.

i am at a bit of a loss.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

are you saying it's better to not be 'soothed' by our Ts?

I wonder if this goal would be different for different people, depending on what they need? Perhaps some people are very contained and super independent and don't have the experience of opening up and letting another person help them (I was a super-contained person when I began therapy). So learning to depend on a T would be a very positive thing that hopefully they could learn to transfer into their other relationships too. Other people might be very emotional, out of control, and overreactive and need to learn to soothe themselves better.

I personally don't like the word "soothe" in relation to myself. It sounds infantile to me and not something I should want another human being to do for me. I should not need soothing as I am an adult. Soothing has a negative connotation to me, like people who can't handle themselves (like my H) and get pissed off all the time and are irrational and storm around the house slamming doors for who knows what reason, need to be soothed--have their egos stroked and spoken to in ways that prop up their fragile selves so that they calm down and act reasonably again (there there it's OK, the big bad mean people made you mad, I understand, but you are great and they are wrong, poor thing--GAG!). I know this is a negative view, based on my home experience of my H getting in these foul moods and needing "soothing" like a child with a temper or a sulking child, and I hate having to do this and I don't want to be a "soother" of people anymore. If someone like that went to therapy, I hate to think of the T sitting around "soothing" the person, as it would seem somehow to reinforce that behavior. If my H went to therapy, I would hope he would learn to be more adult and not so angry all the time, and to communicate better so someone could more directly try to meet his needs (instead of being angry but not telling why and so needing "soothing").

Anyway, that's my reaction to the "soothe" word. It it probably not the same definition as others might use. I don't think it is something I seek from my therapist. But I am very independent and it has been a breakthrough for me to allow myself to be helped by my T, to trust him, to let him connect with me, to sharing deeply, etc. I do find this experience to be wonderful and healing, but I would not call it soothing. But there are indeed times I go to therapy and feel down and kind of hopeless, and I emerge very contented and feel like I am a cat, purring. Like he gave me some drug he has that makes me feel better. Have I been soothed? I don't want to give up the experience of being with him and enjoying it. Is that beign dependent? Is that bad? It is very complicated!

stop relying on others to rescue me and just soldier on myself. but this is the very behaviour that pdoc kept trying to break down in him continually encouraging me to reach out to him.

I wonder if "just soldier on myself" is not necessarily the behavior that should be developed in learning to soothe one's self? So maybe that is what pdoc is working on. Just soldiering on sounds like ignoring one's own needs and not trying to soothe oneself but instead stuffing the needs inside. I think there is ground in between having a T soothe a person and ignoring one's own needs. Maybe it is that middle ground that your pdoc is aiming toward. You said he helps you contain. He does not do it all on his own, but helps you have the experience of how to do it. Eventually, perhaps he expects these skills would completely transfer to you. I think this is a great thing to bring up with your T/pdoc!

[Kiya]

it is complicated. I think it is also a bit of give and take. For me, T is going to step in when in therapy she sees me in a young state and floundering. But it isn't going to be an all the time thing because she wants for me to be independent and learn to parent my own internal kids. Which means I have to learn how to parent (since i sure didn't learn how to at home) and T is the one modeling that behavior. Of course there will be very appropriate times for T to step in and care for us/soothe us/ however that looks for us each. But if they did so all the time they would make us be condependent (or continue to be) on them. It is their job to help us reach out of our selves, learn our needs, practice saying our needs, intervein when we are beyond coping, and teach us the skills we lack (or find someone better who can).

This may be tooting my own horn some too, but I think this is a good growth step for us all - being able to asess therapy from an objective view, see what is being learned, see why/how it applies, analyze self to see what has changed/what still needs changing, and to identify growth. ...which really only makes it more complicated =)