an apology. and then an unrelated question about pulling back from T.

first, the apology: i'm tired. beyond belief. i do know i am flitting in and out of threads, but not really following them up. ditto to ppl who pm me. i'm so sorry, and i wish i had the energy to reply, but i can't right now. i feel awful because (especially to those ppl i need to reply to pms for). even this apology sounds clunky. almost like iff i just write the word then it'll convey the feeling, without me expressing it myself. im feeling quite dead, to be honest.

i dont know even how much sense this making. im gonna leave that there. just wanted to expresss somethng like - thanks for pming/respond to my posts, i want to follow them up and i will when i can get head/heart back into gear.

next, the question: im increasinly starting to want this T/pdoc thingy to go back to the business transaction model. i go, i pay, T imparts knowledge, i change. ditto pdoc - i go, i pay, pdoc prescribes, i... have a reduction in symptoms, or something.

none of this trust stuff, or opening up stuff, or genuine communication or relating or anything. i really like with new-T how there isn't a genuine relationship or anything right now. i just go, we talk about my ocd thing, about me wanting to exercise and blah blah and then i leave. he has said some things which have really hurt me in the past, but i don't really want to address them anymore, because i know it'll open us up a bit to getting closer, or something. i dont want there to be any sort of acknowledgement about 'us', i just want it to be about me and my stuff and no sort of connection that might eventually draw me in and want me to trust that person.

or... kind of... i just want to maintain my independence and separateness. not encourage anything that might make me break and want to rely on someone else in the future.

this is ok with new-T, i just need to be aware of what leads where, and make sure i dont take the wrong path. but with pdoc, who's already in my inner sanctum, i don't know how to 'reset' the relationship. i want to get that distance back. i dont know how to do it. just looking for suggestions.

deli, how often do you see your T? How often your pdoc? A simple way to cut back on intimacy is to not see them so frequently. I see my PNP once a month for prescriptions. Last time, I didn't see in her in person, but we did a phone chat so she could check up on how I was doing on my meds. This really did cut down on the personal interaction. We only spoke 10 minutes or less and did not really connect but accomplished the "business" of the call efficiently. So you could try phone sessions to pull back from pdoc if you want. You've written here so fondly of your pdoc many times--do you really want to pull back?

Does it work this way for you? Does your T impart knowledge and then you change? For me, therapy would not work if it was so "thought-based". I can understand things cognitively really well, but that doesn't provoke or inspire change. For me, I need to feel things to truly understand them and internalize that knowledge so that it can lead to change.

Deli, since what you have written seems a different impulse than before, I wonder if sitting on these feelings for a while would be helpful? Maybe things will seem different in a couple of weeks.

If you really want to pull back from pdoc, you could discuss with him and maybe he could help with this. Or add his insights.

I feel stupid saying this, deli, but I rather admire the stand you're taking. It sounds shockingly contrary to all sorts of doctrine about what's supposed to be good for us, but I do think it would be best for you to be able to choose whatever distance/relationship (or non-relationship) suits you. I also wouldn't want to see you stuck with your choice, if you should change your mind later on. I'm not at all prepared to defend this position, which is probably why I feel stupid stating it right now.

Sorry to add that I have no suggestions for "resetting" your relationship with your pdoc -- only, have you any idea how it may have gotten off-center for you in the first place?

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Call me self-actualizing or call me schizoid, I'll answer to either one.

Are you sure this is want you want? I don't know your "history"--sorry I'm still trying to "get to know who is who on the forum", but how can you have effective therapy without trusting your T? Is your not wanting to trust something you've discussed with your T? I'm just wondering if there is a middle ground with this rather than have your therapy be totally impersonal.

Can you just tell your pdoc what you wrote here and see what he says about it?

Sorry if I'm off track here. Just trying to help.

((((((((((((( dear deli )))))))))))))))))

with great affection, believe me - i think you are headed down a wrong track here....

avoiding the pain is human nature; it is what keeps people away from, or makes them leave, therapy..... but it doesn't heal.....

this is coming from someone who wishes so much to say what you're saying here, but truly I see no long term good coming from it.....

we are sharing the same space go gently with yourself, be open with T, it will hurt but I know there is healing onthe other side of it.

And come with me today, will you? it's going to be a hard one. I'll let you share P7's blanket, I've still got it

thank you all so much for your replies. i really feel like i'm losing the plot right now. things are getting very intense in my head, i cannot keep up.

see pdoc once a week, see T once a week. so kind of like two therapy sessions in one week, but we work on different stuff that needs attention. with pdoc it is general stuff (whatever comes up), with T it is uni work.

thank you for suggesting this. i have been thinking maybe i need to drop down to once a month with pdoc. that way when i do see him it'll just be about meds again, and if i need them adjusted.

i don't think phone sessions would work, because i'm not good at waiting for calls (or emails - like that thread about Ts not replying) and pdoc isn't a very reliable person to return calls.

i'm not sure about pulling back. i'm quite torn about it really. but at the moment i'm not coping, and something needs to give somewhere.

the stuff i'm dealing with T is just very cognitive/behavioural right now, because it's just helping me to get on top of uni - combating time management, some ocd tendencies, perfectionism etc. i'm finding it helpful. but yeah, i would need something more our therapy was aimed at something different, like helping with my depression, which is something less "practical" and something more... deep seated, or something.

i always value your input so much, sunrise. with me and with other ppl you respond to. whenever i talk to pdoc about these impulses he convinces me to continue seeing him. but right now, things are so different from where they have been in the past, that i don't think i can continue seeing him and being honest with him. i'm very scared of him right now, to be honest. and apart from that, i'm also not liking that i am relying on him (e.g., calling him when something goes wrong) when previously i've just dealt with it myself.

thank you for this, fz. yes, i think the pulling back thing may just be something i want right now... maybe it'll change again in a few months or something.

it went off centre in the first place because pdoc actively encouraged it. i'm one of those clients who goes into therapy with their battle armour on, locked deep inside a castle with the moat around it and bridge drawn up. and pdoc kept knocking, so eventually i let him in, but now that he's here it's like i'm using him to defend me from attack instead of doing things myself. and there's also the growing uneasiness that maybe he will turn against me and kill me in my sleep. so i kind of want to herd him out again, to protect both him and myself.

you're right. this is something i struggled a lot with with my old-T, because i could never trust him long enough for real work to be done. in the end, i guess it was good, because he was a prick anyway. but it means i'm seeing this new-T now and thinking it's a good idea not to trust him either. which is ok, because the things we are talking about a pretty impersonal so i don't need to feel vulnerable with him. e.g., how to manage time, how to lose weight without bringing up ED-stuff again etc. a lot of psycho-education, i guess. probably stuff i could read from a book, but i'm too lazy to read this stuff myself, and also i get a tailored approach with this guy. e.g., the suggestion that you manage meal portions is a bad one for me, because i don't really understand what 'normal' meal portions are, and i think i would take it to excess.

so it's pdoc where the trust issue is getting in the way, i dont know. i just need to let this go. maybe i'm just feeling like i dont want to work on the hard stuff right now.

((((SAWE)))) will crawl under the blankie with you (by gosh P7's blanket gets around! ).

i just dont know if its healing, for me to rely on someone else. maybe it's like... trusting someone is good, but it also feels like i've given over all my power now, and i want it back. i feel hopeless without that control, and trusting pdoc feels like it's taken away all of my control. and now i feel dependent on him, and i'm acting as if i'm dependent on him, and being dependent on someone is abhorrent to me. i think he might be sick of it also.

I see it as part of a flow or process for you. If I can't get something, I sometimes get stuck wanting it; once I do get it, I find out how it suits me -- and what's next for me.

I was about to ask what you needed all that protection from (thinking I might have missed something you'd said elsewhere), but you do start to answer that:I didn't quite follow that last part. You don't have to say if you don't want to, but I was wondering: attack by whom or what? Defend you how?

Meaning, you're finding yourself having to watch what you say to him lest you provoke him to do something of the sort?

Once upon a time, when I was considering what kinds of supplements I should take, if any, I started by calculating how much of each vitamin and mineral I was getting in an average day versus how much would be good for me. That showed me where the most obvious gaps were. I was thinking you might try something similar: calculate what you do typically eat, see how it compares with the guidelines, and take it from there. If you were already eating within a few percent of guidelines, that would suggest your portions were already "normal" and hardly worth adjusting; if it was half or double, that would show you which direction to consider adjusting in.

Oh, one more thing: I've found that when I don't pay any attention to my weight, it yo-yos a bit but pretty much stays within bounds. A couple of times, years ago, when I did want to lose weight, what I mostly managed to do was obsess about eating -- and slowly and painfully gain.

I think it could potentially be healing, if it were your choice. As long as it's something that feels imposed on you, though, I think the first step in healing would be to get yourself out from under it and then see where you are about it. Being in a relationship, therapeutic or otherwise, because you feel dependent is among the worst possible reasons. Being in the same relationship although you feel dependent is a hairbreadth -- and a world -- from that, and tends to work a lot better.