[peaches100]

Dr. Muffin,

You made a statement in another thread about schema therapy, that the therapist helps fill the "hole" in the client (for lack of a better word), until the client can do it for themselves. Could you explain HOW it happens that the client can take over this role of nurturing themselves and filling that inner hole?

My t has talked to me about having my adult self nurture and rescue my maladaptive child selves. i try to do it with visualizations, self-talk, and basically taking care of myself. But it doesn't fill the empty hole inside. It doesn't "feel" nurturing to those child selves. And while the adult part is me feels OK about trying to reach out to my hurting inner parts that way, it just doesn't work. It feel like i'm just acting or role playing. It's only in the caring things my t does toward me that i even begin to get a tiny sense of feeling cared about -- and that does not last long.

This is a really difficult thing for me because i am very aware of the inner aching need i have, yet cannot seem to fill that need myself. I know it's not because of resistance, as i really am trying! But it just doesn't work. I seem to need my t to help me feel good and valued, and i feel ashamed for needing that.

[Sannah]

Peaches, I realize that you asked for something specific in this thread but I'm hoping you don't mind if I post here. I couldn't meet my needs until I found the message in my head that was stopping me from doing so. My message was that I believed that my mother would stop loving me if I met my own needs. I formed this message as a small child. Once I uncovered this message and countered it with rational thought I was released from denying my own needs. I had a dream soon after where I was taking care of a small child very lovingly. That small child was my inner child.

Maybe you have a message which keeps you from really taking care of your inner child?

[deliquesce]

i know i'm not DM, but here's a link that explains a part i found interesting/useful: http://www.isst-online.com/node/40

i think pdoc and austin-T use it a lot with me. it is probably what our whole therapy is based on.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Peaches, I realize that you asked for something specific in this thread but I'm hoping you don't mind if I post here. I couldn't meet my needs until I found the message in my head that was stopping me from doing so. My message was that I believed that my mother would stop loving me if I met my own needs. I formed this message as a small child. Once I uncovered this message and countered it with rational thought I was released from denying my own needs. I had a dream soon after where I was taking care of a small child very lovingly. That small child was my inner child.

Maybe you have a message which keeps you from really taking care of your inner child?

Sannah,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I wish i knew what my message is that keeps me from meeting my needs. All i can say is that I don't feel that i have "in" me what i am lacking and need.

[peaches100]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

i know i'm not DM, but here's a link that explains a part i found interesting/useful: http://www.isst-online.com/node/40

i think pdoc and austin-T use it a lot with me. it is probably what our whole therapy is based on.

Hi Deli,

I accessed the link and read what was there. I think that's exactly the kind of therapy i'm needing. My t uses some of the techniques mentioned, but she focuses more on teaching me skills to fill my own needs, rather than being willing to fill them. I wish she was more willing to fill them, at least to the point where i could see what nurturing actually feels like. Then i might have some idea of what it is that i am needing and how it feels. I don't know how to give myself something that is missing that i do not even know how it feels to get. And i don't have kids, which might have helped me to access some kind of a nurturing feeling toward them. . .maybe then i'd have an idea of how i should feel toward my own hurting child self. But oh well. I just feel really discouraged about it.

[Brightheart]

Originally Posted by peaches100

Sannah,

Thanks for sharing your experience. I wish i knew what my message is that keeps me from meeting my needs. All i can say is that I don't feel that i have "in" me what i am lacking and need.

((((Peaches))))

I think that everyone does. But maybe you have to believe in that in order to find it. It's there, Peaches.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by peaches100

All i can say is that I don't feel that i have "in" me what i am lacking and need.

"It" isn't a noun, it is a verb. It is the things that you DO to take care of yourself and be kind to yourself, loving yourself. They are all verbs. You can do actions............

[Dr.Muffin]

hey peaches...sorry, for the late reply, i like to sleep in! lol

looks like you got some pretty good response already though, thanks folks!

basically, as i understand it. there are four categories of schema modes. a schema mode is the schema and coping response that is activated at any given moment. its a state of being. its similar to when you have transference to your therapist in a session...its whatever that negative feeling is, plus the way you generally react to it. (hope i explained that well enough!)

so, there are child modes (vulnerable child, angry child, impulsive child and happy child), parent modes (punitive parent, demanding parent), coping modes (detached protector, compliant surrenderer, overcompensator) and then theres the healthy adult mode.

the goal of schema therapy is to strengthen the healthy adult mode. the healthy adult nurtures and the vulnerable child, validates the angry child, sets and maintains limits and boundaries for the impulsive. the things your parents should have done for you when you were a child. it supports the happy child mode, while also neutralizing the maladaptive coping modes and combating the maladaptive parent modes.

in the beginning, the therapist plays this role. while doing the imagery, the therapist (with your permission) steps in and fulfills that need. validating your anger about not having your needs met, protecting you from the maladaptive parenting and thus making it less and less necessary for you to engage in maladaptive coping. and the coping is the behavior that you are likely in therapy to change. as your healthy adult follows the example of the therapist, over time you will eventually be able to do these things for yourself. in the beginning though, you need someone else to do it for you (according to theory) because the negative beliefs about yourself, the world and interactions with others are way too entrenched. in reality, we didnt parent ourselves as children....this, in part, can explain why its alright when youre in the room with the therapist, but goes away once you leave the safety of the office.

part of schema therapy is developing flash cards, which help to serve as pocket therapist...a transitional object as you begin to get stronger and stronger.

[VickiesPath]

I really enjoyed reading about the schema therapy. I found it very intriguing. I have never had the opportunity to do something that interactive with T. Most of my time with T has been in response to crises.

Over the years, the majority of progress I've made on changing the way I live has been through self-discovered means. The most profound change that I ever experienced was through guided imagery in a format of self-hypnosis. This was accomplished via audio tapes. The T on the tapes would guide you to different times in your life, going back to specific times and having you, more or less, relive those. During one of these, I came face to face with myself as a child. She told me what she needed. I, as the adult, took her in my arms and promised her I would give it to her. That experience was earthshaking. I cannot begin to count the ways that it affected me.

I have always believed that one never stops learning. My search to find a better life for myself began when I was 20. It has not ended and will continue until I die. I always find a way to expand knowledge of myself and of the universe around me.

[BlueMoon6]

Thanks for the link Deli. It does sound like what I need. I am slowly processing this thread. I am reading it slowly and coming back to it.

What if I cannot remember a lot of what happened? How can the re-parenting happen if I cant remember?

I also didnt read a lot of Dr M's response yet- I am reading a little slowly and then coming back to it. Something about this feels overwhelming...maybe triggering? But I want to read it anyway. I wish I could read it without so many feelings surfacing. It is also difficult for me to read the link...I have to go and come back b/c feelings come up and I feel overwhelmed. Anybody else with that experience?

Peaches- About not having in you what you need and are lacking. I feel the same. I dont know how that void is filled. It seems like when I do things for myself it feels artificial. It may be nice at the time, but it doesnt touch that empty place where love should be. That is why this schema therapy sounds like it may help. I have always felt that people I know seem to have a confident, loving place they draw from even in difficult times/situations. That they feel that they will come out OK- I feel like I am missing that place and I have used all kinds of things/distractions/addictions to "make" that place or avoid feeling the pain of not having a "center."
Does that make sense?

[Dr.Muffin]

you dont have to remember everything...you are usually asked to think of a time when you felt (enter feeling here) and then you set the stage. its not about recovering memories its about working through the ones that are salient at the time.

dont feel bad about taking things in bite-sized chunks. go at your own pace.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin

you dont have to remember everything...you are usually asked to think of a time when you felt (enter feeling here) and then you set the stage. its not about recovering memories its about working through the ones that are salient at the time.

dont feel bad about taking things in bite-sized chunks. go at your own pace.

Thanks Dr M- that sounds gentle and do-able. I am hoping I can find a therapist who does things that way. I say that b/c my current t doesnt seem to do it that way at all. I often feel rushed and am reminded of wasting time while I am silent and thinking or even struggling with words.

I really need a gentle, patient t.

[Dr.Muffin]

im sorry you have that experience....i can understand why you would want to look for someone else. sometimes the silences are the most meaningful part of therapy IMO

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin

so, there are child modes (vulnerable child, angry child, impulsive child and happy child), parent modes (punitive parent, demanding parent), coping modes (detached protector, compliant surrenderer, overcompensator) and then theres the healthy adult mode.

The modes sound kind of like ego states, but different too. Interesting!

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Dr. Muffin

in reality, we didnt parent ourselves as children....this, in part, can explain why its alright when youre in the room with the therapist, but goes away once you leave the safety of the office.

I didnt understand this. Can you explain further?

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

i know i'm not DM, but here's a link that explains a part i found interesting/useful: http://www.isst-online.com/node/40

i think pdoc and austin-T use it a lot with me. it is probably what our whole therapy is based on.

Deli- I keep going back and reading more about this. Do you really think it is what your whole therapy is based on? With both Austin-t and pdoc?

Why do you think so?

[Dr.Muffin]

what i meant was, early on in the process you need the therapist to be able to show you how to be the healthy adult. when you were a child, you didnt parent yourself, so its hard to expect yourself to be able to do it now. you need a role model first, someone to emulate. thats the limited re-parenting.

and i think it was mentioned how people are able to feel the warmth and love and strength and whatever else from the therapist when they are in the room with him/her, but once they leave the safety of the office, the empty feeling comes back. i think thats related to why you need the therapist....first they do it for you (fill the void and nurture you) and then they gradually teach you to do it for yourself. but if they havent gotten to the teaching part, then you will feel okay in therapy and then terrible in between sessions.

did that make more sense? if not, blame the lateness of the hour! (its 3am here!)

[Brightheart]

Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin

sometimes the silences are the most meaningful part of therapy IMO

I would have to agree with this. I always felt the most connected to my therapist during the silences. I liked sharing space with him. It felt to me as if I was still being heard and understood without my having said a word. I think it also gave me time to process and renenergize myself for more talking.

[skeksi]

Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin

i think thats related to why you need the therapist....first they do it for you (fill the void and nurture you) and then they gradually teach you to do it for yourself. but if they havent gotten to the teaching part, then you will feel okay in therapy and then terrible in between sessions.)

This makes so much sense. Thanks Dr. Muffin!

[deliquesce]

Originally Posted by BlueMoon6

Deli- I keep going back and reading more about this. Do you really think it is what your whole therapy is based on? With both Austin-t and pdoc?

Why do you think so?

hmm... limited reparenting is a technique, it's not specific to any one type of therapy. kind of like challenging distorted cognitions is found in most types of therapy, not just CBT.

so, i haven't experienced schema therapy myself. i have read about it extensively, and discussed it with people who study & teach it, but never been the recipient of it.

i think i have said elsewhere that i don't do "inner child" work, and i also try to limit discussions where i delve deeply into traumatic experiences of the past. the "inner child" concept is something i do not relate to, so i can't do that sort of work (it's not just resistance!). i know a lot of people find it very helpful and meaningful for them, but i dont have an "inner child" in the way that i think other people find that they do.

my work with pdoc/austin-T is very "now" focussed. sure, we do talk about stuff from the past where it is relevant, but i've seen pdoc for 5 years now and we've only had 3 sessions where we've exclusively focussed on that stuff. and - LOL - most of those sessions were filled with silence, so we could probably have wrapped it up in 5 minutes. but my point is that there isn't anything really "re" in the "re-parenting" part for me. what pdoc & austin-T give me is like parenting for the now-time deli.

it can be very simple things like pdoc listening to a radio show because it had a philospher on it he knew i was interested in, or austin-T sending me txts at 8am for a week to make me get out of bed to study. they both take an interest in what i do - they remember when my exams are, austin-T gives me advice about applying to various unis for honours, pdoc (god bless him) follows through on my excruciatingly agonising attempts at going on dates and gets excited on my behalf (if he didnt get excited, there would be nothing to balance me feeling sick at the thought of one). pdoc is a darling because he has told me it is my job to take risks and it is his job to protect me. he has also told me before than he can "look after" me. that makes me feel safe and cared for.

Austin-T has already told me what type of champagne he will bring to my graduation and pdoc has said he will probably cry at my wedding ( i love how he just took it for granted that he would be there. or that one would ever even happen).

sometimes it is very directive - e.g., i remember once saying "i'm a bad person", and Austin-T said "no, deli. we don't talk about ourselves that way". no challening the thought, weighing up the evidence etc. it was like being told off for swearing in a church . but it is nice because sometimes when i think that thought these days, Austin-Ts voice pops into my head and it stops it in it's tracks. i do well with being given rules of what i'm "allowed" to do and not, and Austin-T gives me a lot of rules.

austin-T knows i have a phobia of driving, so he's said we will work on that and my final task will be to drive his own car and see that i dont crash it (some flashy number that he won't even let his partner touch - he tried to tell me the model/make and i was like *yawn* tell me the colour ).

i know we do a heap of CBT stuff, and that is what i respond to best in terms of immediate results for minimal time/effort. but it's all the interpersonal stuff that i appreciate most - that fills that hole inside of me. and their belief in me helps me a lot - it's not that i leave and it all goes away, but i carry it with me. e.g., i went for a drive last month (with my dad, who's a driving instructor, so no chance for a crash) because it was nice that Austin-T trusts me enough to play with his car one day.

Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin

what i meant was, early on in the process you need the therapist to be able to show you how to be the healthy adult. when you were a child, you didnt parent yourself, so its hard to expect yourself to be able to do it now. you need a role model first, someone to emulate. thats the limited re-parenting.

This all makes a lot of sense to me. I think T is trying to show me that 'healthy adult' role model. In my very first session, T pointed out that I have difficulty taking care of myself and even more difficulty in letting others take care of me. It's been a struggle, but I've gradually started to let T and a few others take care of me, without feeling like I'm a burden to them.

and i think it was mentioned how people are able to feel the warmth and love and strength and whatever else from the therapist when they are in the room with him/her, but once they leave the safety of the office, the empty feeling comes back. i think thats related to why you need the therapist....first they do it for you (fill the void and nurture you) and then they gradually teach you to do it for yourself.

Dr. Muffin, correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like the point behind UPR, yes? When my T was first so accepting and supportive to everything I was telling her, I went through a phase where I felt that I didn't deserve that UPR at all, and I told T that! I still struggle with that occasionally. But wow, does it ever feel good to have my feelings validated, to realize that some experiences really were as bad as I thought they were, it's not just me overreacting. T has really given me that gift, and I'm starting to carry it outside the office. I still have this huge need to be comforted, but I don't really feel empty, so that's progress!

I always felt the most connected to my therapist during the silences. I liked sharing space with him. It felt to me as if I was still being heard and understood without my having said a word. I think it also gave me time to process and renenergize myself for more talking.

It took me awhile, but I do like the silences more now. We don't have them that often, but I've found exactly what you wrote, Brightheart - it's a great chance for me to process what T or I have just said. T told me early on that silence is a gift, and I get that now.

[BlueMoon6]

Originally Posted by Dr.Muffin

what i meant was, early on in the process you need the therapist to be able to show you how to be the healthy adult. when you were a child, you didnt parent yourself, so its hard to expect yourself to be able to do it now. you need a role model first, someone to emulate. thats the limited re-parenting.

and i think it was mentioned how people are able to feel the warmth and love and strength and whatever else from the therapist when they are in the room with him/her, but once they leave the safety of the office, the empty feeling comes back. i think thats related to why you need the therapist....first they do it for you (fill the void and nurture you) and then they gradually teach you to do it for yourself. but if they havent gotten to the teaching part, then you will feel okay in therapy and then terrible in between sessions.

did that make more sense? if not, blame the lateness of the hour! (its 3am here!)

Thank you for responding at 3 am! I understand it now- I have to have things spelled out for me!

It does make sense. That is exactly what happens to me. I feel taken care of in session and then when I leave it doesnt stick, and if it does, it is only for a short while. So, with schema therapy, I will be re-parented in a caring, nurturing way and then I internalize that and treat myself that way? I will be my own parent? I am not good at all at parenting myself. But I do a good job with my children. My t has said it is b/c I had a good relationship with my grandmother who I spent a lot of time with growing up. She modeled better behavior for me.
Still, it is difficult for me to imagine being a loving, caring parent to myself and feeling it and wanting to be that way toward myself.

[phoenix7]

((((((((((((((((((((Bluemoon6)))))))))))))))))))))))

My T has used DBT, CBT, TFT, Hypnotherapy and now Schema therapy in conjunstion wiht the other things - I have a book called reinventing you life - which lists the various schemas and how to get past them and i am working on it wiht T and as homewor (geez homework at my age lol - when T said that i said lets calll it personal development instead lol )

In the beginiing i thought i would never fill the void inside me - that i would never be able to like let alone love and nurture myself....well I just want to let you know that its not easy, and it takes time... but i am starting to be able to say that i like myself - that may not sound like much but going from deep hatred and shame to maybe like is a huge move for me.

Maybe its the combination of all the therapies and my T dunno -
but i know the schema therapy has helped me a lot and the little cards that i ended up writing are timely reminders when the old ways come back and bite me

Be safe, be well ,be happy,

take care

P7

[Dr.Muffin]

Originally Posted by deliquesce

hmm... limited reparenting is a technique, it's not specific to any one type of therapy. kind of like challenging distorted cognitions is found in most types of therapy, not just CBT.

so, i haven't experienced schema therapy myself. i have read about it extensively, and discussed it with people who study & teach it, but never been the recipient of it.

i think i have said elsewhere that i don't do "inner child" work, and i also try to limit discussions where i delve deeply into traumatic experiences of the past. the "inner child" concept is something i do not relate to, so i can't do that sort of work (it's not just resistance!). i know a lot of people find it very helpful and meaningful for them, but i dont have an "inner child" in the way that i think other people find that they do.

my work with pdoc/austin-T is very "now" focussed. sure, we do talk about stuff from the past where it is relevant, but i've seen pdoc for 5 years now and we've only had 3 sessions where we've exclusively focussed on that stuff. and - LOL - most of those sessions were filled with silence, so we could probably have wrapped it up in 5 minutes. but my point is that there isn't anything really "re" in the "re-parenting" part for me. what pdoc & austin-T give me is like parenting for the now-time deli.

it can be very simple things like pdoc listening to a radio show because it had a philospher on it he knew i was interested in, or austin-T sending me txts at 8am for a week to make me get out of bed to study. they both take an interest in what i do - they remember when my exams are, austin-T gives me advice about applying to various unis for honours, pdoc (god bless him) follows through on my excruciatingly agonising attempts at going on dates and gets excited on my behalf (if he didnt get excited, there would be nothing to balance me feeling sick at the thought of one). pdoc is a darling because he has told me it is my job to take risks and it is his job to protect me. he has also told me before than he can "look after" me. that makes me feel safe and cared for.

Austin-T has already told me what type of champagne he will bring to my graduation and pdoc has said he will probably cry at my wedding ( i love how he just took it for granted that he would be there. or that one would ever even happen).

sometimes it is very directive - e.g., i remember once saying "i'm a bad person", and Austin-T said "no, deli. we don't talk about ourselves that way". no challening the thought, weighing up the evidence etc. it was like being told off for swearing in a church . but it is nice because sometimes when i think that thought these days, Austin-Ts voice pops into my head and it stops it in it's tracks. i do well with being given rules of what i'm "allowed" to do and not, and Austin-T gives me a lot of rules.

austin-T knows i have a phobia of driving, so he's said we will work on that and my final task will be to drive his own car and see that i dont crash it (some flashy number that he won't even let his partner touch - he tried to tell me the model/make and i was like *yawn* tell me the colour ).

i know we do a heap of CBT stuff, and that is what i respond to best in terms of immediate results for minimal time/effort. but it's all the interpersonal stuff that i appreciate most - that fills that hole inside of me. and their belief in me helps me a lot - it's not that i leave and it all goes away, but i carry it with me. e.g., i went for a drive last month (with my dad, who's a driving instructor, so no chance for a crash) because it was nice that Austin-T trusts me enough to play with his car one day.

oh but deli, that IS the re-parenting. it doesnt all have to be about "inner child work"...dont get too caught up on semantics.

limited re-parenting is giving the client the things that a child needs but never got from their parents...taking an interest in them, being excited about their triumphs and empathetic about their setbacks, encouraging them to explore the world on their own while being a safe and stable base for them to come back to. everything your docs have done (as described above) is limited re-parenting. not everyone calls it that, though, so thats why i say dont get caught up on semantics. that is a very psychodynamic term, and lots of CBTers dont like to use it. which certainly does not mean that they dont do it!

if you really look at it...a lot of the differences in different types of therapy are pretty much just semantic. sure there are differences of focus and emphasis, but its really hard to be radically different when everyone has the same goal, you know?

deli, it sounds to me like youre progressing really well! i bet there was a time when it did kind of suck between sessions. but now youre starting to internalize your docs and be able to take them with you....and soon enough, it wont be their voice you hear admonishing your or encouraging you in your head...it'll be your own. i feel like thats what therapy (any kind of therapy) is supposed to do.

[Dr.Muffin]

Originally Posted by dreamseeker9

This all makes a lot of sense to me. I think T is trying to show me that 'healthy adult' role model. In my very first session, T pointed out that I have difficulty taking care of myself and even more difficulty in letting others take care of me. It's been a struggle, but I've gradually started to let T and a few others take care of me, without feeling like I'm a burden to them.

Dr. Muffin, correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like the point behind UPR, yes? When my T was first so accepting and supportive to everything I was telling her, I went through a phase where I felt that I didn't deserve that UPR at all, and I told T that! I still struggle with that occasionally. But wow, does it ever feel good to have my feelings validated, to realize that some experiences really were as bad as I thought they were, it's not just me overreacting. T has really given me that gift, and I'm starting to carry it outside the office. I still have this huge need to be comforted, but I don't really feel empty, so that's progress!

It took me awhile, but I do like the silences more now. We don't have them that often, but I've found exactly what you wrote, Brightheart - it's a great chance for me to process what T or I have just said. T told me early on that silence is a gift, and I get that now.

yes, it is definitely part of UPR....i think UPR got a bad rap for a while because people took it to mean that you cant challenge or question a client...but UPR isnt about treating the person like they are perfect and free from problems. why would they be in therapy if they were?!!? lol...UPR is like what a parent (should) feels for a child. they love that child, they will always love that child. they may get angry, there may be conflict, they may not like the things that child does or says....but its never a question of whether or not they love the child.

its about focusing less on who you are (im a bad person) and more on what you do (i have self-defeating behaviors)...and again, semantics aside, i think every therapist (should) shows their clients UPR