Neediness in therapy

I was surfing around and read a counselor's description (see below) of needy clients --how they are not really in therapy to solve their problems but to get caring and support and compassion from him. He says the problems they bring to therapy aren't truly problems, but just things to talk about while they go about their true purpose (sucking the energy from him). By no means does he say all clients are like this, just a needy subset. When I read something like this, I get some mixed feelings. On the one hand, I feel that getting support from a therapist is a fine reason for going to therapy, but on the other hand, I feel like maybe I am a client who really shouldn't be in therapy anymore, because I do like the support and compassion I get from therapy, and it does supercede a lot of "problems" we work on. I am typically very competent, functional, and independent; I don't like to think of myself as needy. In fact, in therapy we have worked on getting me to admit I even have needs and that it is OK to tell another person what those needs are or to ask to have them met. (My T sometimes says to me, "what are you needing from me?") But sometimes I feel guilty for going to see my therapist because I feel the positive I get from our interaction goes beyond what I need to function. My feelings of guilt or that I am doing therapy "wrong" are reinforced by reading things like what this counselor wrote. They are also reinforced when I read on PC that a client expressed strong needs to her therapist and then got terminated. On the one hand, some therapists don't want you to be needy. On the other hand, some therapists work with you to get you to realize you have needs and to express them. I know there's not just one way to do therapy, but I find these differing reactions to client neediness to be very confusing.

Once my T gave me a birthday present--he read a favorite poem of his to me in session on my birthday. He said he wanted to give me the gift of hearing a man speak these words to me. The poem was about a woman with very strong needs. I told him afterwards that parts of the poem scared me. The parts where the woman admits her needs. I am scared I may have those needs too, and they are in a cellar somewhere and if I open up that door, there my needs will be, and others will see them too. Aaackk! The fact T chose this poem for me means he must see I have strong needs. I'm not even sure of that myself; if I do have strong needs, I thought I was pretty good at keeping them under wraps. Then I read stuff like this counselor writes about how having needs ("being needy") is not a legitimate reason to be in therapy, and I question whether I should still be in therapy. Maybe I am just coddling myself and sucking T's energy. I don't feel like I am...

((((((sunny)))))

i didn't even read that t's quote and i probably won't. i can tell you though that it doesn't apply to you sunny from what you described. just look at the incredibly difficult work you did in your last session regarding your dad. i think there is always a balance between doing our part and allowing others to help us. some of us do too much ourselves and have to learn to rely on others more and others do too little themselves and need to learn how to rely less on others so much. from what you wrote i think this t is talking about people who do the latter. i definitely don't see you being someone who relies too much on others. i also have trouble acknowledging my needs because i was taught it is shameful to be needy. eh, we all have needs. there is no shame in it.

sunrise, this guy obviously has lots of unresolved issues himself... I found myself laughing in disbelief at the un thought through crap his wrote....he shows a severe inability to be there for the client and is afraid of emeshment himself...Just take it with a pinch of salt...I have...oh god I've sucked T dry or so my fantasy have feed my monstrous needs would...but in reality t has pointed out over and over again...my needs are not monstrous and she is resilient enough to withstand them....obviously the quack who wrote the above hasn't ever experienced what therapy really is all about...

((((((((((((sunrise)))))))))))

So many of the things you expressed in your opening paragraph I have questioned about myself as of late. But the one thing that I have realized is that, if you feel as though your therapy is beneficial to you, is helping you in some fundamental way, chances are it is. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I disagree strongly with what was said in the quotation that you provided. I am in the middle of pursuing a career as a counsellor myself, and I have yet to find any support to what that man says. Sure it can be tough and "energy-draining," but that comes with the nature of the job. I actually feel sorry for him, and for his clients, for having that attitude. Saying that the relationships that you may or may not have lacked in childhood are impossible to reconstitute in adulthood is just plain baloney. Obviously you can never have the *same* relationship in adulthood, but certainly you can work to achieve a similar working relationship, that would then extend into your life outside of therapy (a major goal of the therapeutic process). How could one ever expect anyone to develop functional relationships in one's life, if one has never had that experience in childhood, and they have absolutely no hope of achieving this through therapy or some other milieu? I'm calling ******** on this one.

I recently ended a significant therapeutic relationship in my life (finished university), and one of the major things that I took away from my experience with my own T is that sometimes, you just need to have someone to talk to, and who you know is in support of you. If that makes me "clingy" then fine, but I don't doubt for a second that my work with this T was beneficial, even if my concerns weren't "major" and our work largely consisted of forming a positive and trusting relationship with my T.

Having needs, or wanting that supportive relationship in your life doesn't make you week or needy, don't let anyone try and convince you of that. Unfortunately there will be people who choose to label it, or claim we're "energy vampires," but clearly those individuals don't have as much insight as they claim to have. Your T on the other hand, sounds very authentic and attuned to who you are; don't let this stranger allow you to question that.

((((((((((Sunny)))))))))

when I read the article you quoted, I didn't see it as saying "people shouldn't have needs", I read it as "you shouldn't rescue people as as therapist" (although I don't think he said it very well, or with very much compassion)

I know, KNOW, that I am allowed to have needs, and to have T meet those needs. Like you, before therapy, I honestly, truly didn't even know that I had needs. T helped me discover that it is okay if I need something, and it is okay if I have that need met. Some of the needs T helps me with are: needing someone to witness my story, needing to learn containment, needing to be heard, needing a quiet place to gather my thoughts every week, needing to know that I am lovable and worth caring for.

T won't "rescue" me; if I were to ask him what to DO about something specific, he would direct me to my own inner wisdom, he would ask questions to help me think it through, but he wouldn't tell me "do this". He won't call to check on me, no matter what is going on, but if I call and ask to be heard, he will always call back and listen. He won't guess at my needs, but he will meet them if I ask to have them met (and if he CAN meet them).

It sounds like you are worrying about whether you "deserve" to go to therapy, to have needs, to be heard, to be cared for. You do. It doesn't HAVE to be trauma, divorce, etc....we can get support as we learn and grow and change, and it's okay.

Those are my thoughts anyway

Not quite a dispassionate term, is it: sucking. Sounds as though the person who wrote this is a bit scared, and instead of admitting that, they put the onus on the other person.

I think there's a lot of truth in what he said, but I don't see that kind of thing in your posts.

Well, the man sounds like he is in the wrong profession!! I don't think my therapist would agree with much of what this guy said. Many shrinks who are self-psychology followers, like mine, use this neediness as a tool.

No matter how overwhelming your needs feel, I think it is OK. It's the acting out that can drive therapists a little nuts (a billion phone calls like I sometimes do but try not to) Having those needs can be met in many ways in therapy. A good therapist knows this. Without it, there are impasses.

I thought about this a lot while I was running this morning.

It strikes me that the person who wrote this sounds like a bad therapist who is bitter about their own inability to draw boundaries.

A good therapist understands that people have needs and needs are okay. A good therapist meets a clients needs while helping the client to find answers within themselves.

It sounds like this person tried to "rescue" his clients and ended up burnt out and angry. Yuck.

The only good thing I see in what the author wrote is that the author therapist is wise enough to know that he would not be the right therapist for such a patient. Or maybe many kinds of patients, because this sounds to me he isn't concerned about the reasons for the neediness. It would be like saying an alcoholic ought to just stop drinking to solve his problems. This sounds like a behavioral therapist looking only at the presenting behavior.

Learning that there is no rescue is most important and is something to work through that can take a long time. It is hard to give up. It is really hard to work through. It leaves a person so lonely. Imagine that and a therapist who is repulsed by you at the same time...

The author said a T can't give an adult the loving that they missed; you have to give it to yourself. I disagree because at my last session my T did give me some of what I missed! She says it's okay to have those needs and for her to fulfill them. She agrees with the author that the goal is for me to meet them myself, for me to comfort my inner child and not for her to do it. But that is a goal, something to work towards. So, maybe I am a needy client, but for the first time in all of my therapy, a T is meeting those needs and I feel better!

sunrise, you don't fit into the category of a needy client--no way. I fit it, but my T is well aware of it, and does not feel like she is "rescung me".

I agree with the T. I think it depends on one's perspective and fears as to whether one can read the "sucking dry" and understand the points he was trying to make. He tries to engage and help all the people who come to him but there are those who go to therapy who are not there to help themselves, cannot yet or do not wish to engage in a dialog and learn to work together with another person on their problems.

My therapist told me straight out, first session, "I do not chase ambulances". That wasn't cruel; that just told me about how she worked, what she expected from me and how therapy with her was set up. This therapist above when meeting people asks them, "what's keeping you from solving your problems?" He keeps the focus on the person coming for "help" solving their problems. The world doesn't have a problem; it doesn't care that my mother died when I was 3 and my stepmother beat me. Those things aren't the problem, influenced my thinking growing up but aren't with me now and now I can start learning how to think new thoughts, get a new perspective to go with my current, adult self, if I choose. Or, I can stay stuck. My choice.

Sunrise, I don't think this quote/therapist's comments were about you in any way; you have been working, done the work of therapy and it has/is paid off for you. I don't think his comments were about enjoying support but about trying to take support without giving anything in return; wanting the therapist's "person" without sharing one's own.

The therapist might care, though...

Peeks back in...

My thinking is that sometimes one needs this type of environment and safe place so that one can help oneself. This is definitely how it worked for me. Life can be a paradox at times. There was a time during therapy when I may have been considered "needy". In allowing this, embracing it even, I was thus able to do the work within the safety of the therapeutic space. Once I had successfully done that, I was able to let go and walk alone. Sometimes one first must be held before one can let go.

I do think there are different styles and methods that therapists use. It really depends on the client what works best for them.

Sunny, in no way do I think any of this applies to you.

Yes, that's true. Thanks for reminding me. Most of the time I think that, but then I read something like what the counselor wrote, and it makes me wonder...

Thanks. I don't know why I need reassurance on that because if someone wrote what I did, I would probably reassure them too. When I go to therapy these days, I don't feel needy. I was a lot needier in my first year. I feel really busy and wonder if I can even fit therapy in, and then I do go, and it can be really helpful. (It helps me face up to and work on problems in my life, rather than sweeping them under the rug in my typical avoidant way.) When I was in this really awful car accident right in front of T's building, I called him on the phone and he didn't answer of course as he was in session. Then I apologized the next day for calling him. I said I don't why I called, I knew you couldn't answer. He was pleasingly annoyed, "You called because you needed my support!!!" (you dufus you). So yes, this is a continuing refrain in my therapy, that I can have needs and express them and it is OK. Then Mr. Counselor comes along and says needy clients suck counselors dry and it nudges me off balance.

I did think the language the counselor chose sounded hostile--talking about the clients sucking him dry and using weapons against him. It made him sound very adversarial (and somewhat paranoid) and not someone I would want sitting across from me (unless I had a shield). Maybe clients use "weapons" against him because of his adversarial stance. As ye sow, so shall ye reap?

That therapist is a pompous asshole who needs to get off his high horse and shut up. what a pig.

Agreed, sunrise, his is an adversarial stance. Rather than seeing a needy client as preparing to attach a hose to suck him dry, I'd rather see a T whose perspective saw a needy client as a person who does not have confidence in their own ability to save themselves, or as a person who has been taught not to be independent. If a person has a dysfunctional way of relating to others, it 1. came about for good reason, and 2. can't change until it is viewed compassionately as the coping method it is.

I suppose some people thrive with someone who take this T's approach, but I'm not one of them.

I agree that the somewhat inflammatory language he chose does hamper understanding his points. That is a good lesson for me in my own communication.

In a way, it isn't that much different from what many therapists ask when you first show up in their office. What brings you here today? For me, I knew I had certain problems I wanted to solve, so I could certainly tell T what those were, but the main thing I chose to tell him was I have these problems but I am profoundly stuck. The emphasis was on the being stuck part, not on solving the problems. And I see that as similar to what the counselor was asking--not so much what problems do you have, but why can't you solve them? And then working on the reasons you can't solve them, rather than on the problems themselves. (I am assuming the counselor meant he would work on this, but maybe I'm assuming too much.) So that is what my T and I focused on early in therapy--getting me unstuck. I think T saw that I did have a lot of resources to draw on if I could only break free from that stuck place. I am not sure if it is quite the same as what that counselor wrote, though. What would he say if a person told him they were stuck? Would he help them get unstuck or say you're not ready and show them the door? Maybe he would say that if you're stuck, you're are just being a victim--snap out of it! I just didn't much of anything that would have helped me in what he wrote...

This isn't how it worked for me. I could make the choice to not be stuck until I was blue in the face. It didn't change anything. I sooo wanted to not be stuck. I was ready. I was willing. I wasn't looking for a rescuer, just someone with an idea of how to do this. It turned out I needed a T with trauma expertise to recognize why I was stuck and then use his expertise to help me process the trauma so I could move forward. Wanting to be unstuck and saying you are ready to be unstuck do not necessarily help at all. I've been there--I know. I am not very victimlike at all, so it seems kind of insulting (not from you, Perna), that a therapist would blame a client's inablity to move forward on their playing a victim role. As if someone wants to be stuck like that!

Thanks, Perna. I like that about sharing one's own person. I do believe strongly in reciprocity in the therapy relationship and that when both people share, it can really deepen the relationship and make things "click." (That is one reason my T's ample self-disclosure has been so helpful--it helps us draw very close and is like laying down a card on the table. He lays down and then looks to me, "your move." If he had enough courage to share with me and lay down a card, then I can do it too. )

Doesn't sound like a good fit at all.

Interestingly, he doesn't seem to be. At least he is not your garden variety behaviorist. I did read more of his post and some of another. He presents as a T who helps people face their challenges in life by helping them find and be their inner warrior. I am not sure what type of therapy that is--Jungian? I am also not sure if that is for men only. Later in the post I quoted, he directs his comments to men. (He seems most annoyed when men assume the victim role, as he sees it.) But in another post, women are definitely included.

. . .they plug their suction hoses into our “energy.”

. . .needy people suck you dry

. . . they don’t want help

. . .you may need the experience of being cared for. . .but I can’t give you that experience. It’s too late.

. . . guilt-trips are the weapons Victims use most effectively.


Uh. . .yeah. . .sounds like a real empathetic counselor I'd go to. . .has a real positive view of his patients, doesn't he?

NOT!!!

That's all this guy is saying. There are those who don't want to stay stuck and there are those who may say that but aren't willing to do the work or, more correctly, even try to do the work.

I know everyone here has experienced people who have tried to "suck them dry"; certain friends, relatives, spouses, etc. There are people who one gives and gives to and gets "nothing" in return. That is who this therapist is talking about and how, as a therapist, he has to differentiate between who wants to work with him and who is just there for the sucking :-)

Therapy isn't just a "I pay for them, they have to listen" situation; the therapist is not just an expensive hired listener; they are people, like we are, and they don't have to work with you because you're paying money and they need money. If your therapist is working with you, you can quit worrying about if they "want" to work with you and if you're worth it, etc. Who is going to do the hard work of therapy with someone who's boring or not putting forth any effort? It's a collaborative working together and if either party isn't doing their part, either party is free to leave. As this therapist points out in the end of what he writes, one of two things happen; either the client leaves, usually in a huff, or the client works together with him on the client's issues.

I'm not questioning the truth that some patients may be more invested in finding a caretaker than in healing. I object mostly to the demeaning language he uses, which to me, is evidence of a lack of empathy for his patients. . .a "deal breaker," in my opinion.

He also fails to recognize that some patients may, at first, come to therapy with the motivation of being cared for. . . but that as they learn and heal, their motivation can change to that of wanting to be more responsible and independent.

If they initially present to him as being "needy," is he willing to work with them, having a positive attitude and a belief in their ability to make progress? Or does he already have the negative mindset, "Oh, here's another emotional vacuum, who is going to want to suck the life out of me?"

Actually. . .not sure if my post was more appropriate here or in the "Becoming a Constant Object" thread. Sort of a similar theme. . .

I think we are becoming hung up on some of the words like "needy". We tend to see ourselves as needy but don't want to see ourselves like this therapist sees the "needy" people who come to see him.

All of us need help and support, that's why we go to therapy! That's not being "needy' in this therapist's sense I don't think. I think his "needy" goes with his "suck dry" people; if you're not out to get without giving/working on your issues, then you aren't needy in his sense.