somebody remind me?

at the moment.... you are.....

what I interpret from your goes something like, (a) my chances for success in therapy are small (i think you mentioned miracle) and (b) the kind of sharing and mutual encouragement and learning that is found on PC is of dubious value.

Sorry, I do not find either of these acceptable... I realize you are new to PC but it's probably not too good just to enter a serious discussion and tell people to step back and take a critical look at their support system here (which includes venting, "processing" in community, compassion, and collective sharing of experience and wisdom). It's not group therapy, but it is in a way. What PC offers is unique and IMO marvelous.

In other words, anyone who is damaged enough to need therapy should have his or her head examined, because the process may be dangerous/fatal to your health?

to return to the original question more or less: if the therapeutic relationship is not reciprocal, how can it heal a damaged capability for reciprocal relationship? Talking it through, exploring the subject and learning how reciprocity works is worth something, but will that be enough? has anyone finished this in therapy? if you don't mind my asking

Well, for me, I have always been comfortable GIVING, but not receiving. I couldn't admit even to myself that I had needs, and if I had been aware of a need, there was NO WAY I would let another person know that. I wanted to be completely independent and walled off. I really believed that my only value was in my ability to take care of other people - friends, family, even strangers. There was no way in the world I would let down my guard and let someone take care of me...as a child, my "caretakers" were anything but; any trust was met with pain.

In the therapy relationship, I have learned to receive. It's been scary and hard. For a long long long long time, I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, sure that it was all a ruse and in the end, T was sure to hurt me like the people did in my childhood. I still have a really hard time with it - I sent T an e-mail just last night and asked for a reply. He hasn't replied yet, and I'm worried I'm going to be "in trouble". Probably what will happen is T will give me what I need, I won't get in trouble, and my trust will grow just a little bit more.

That's been my experience. It's a process for sure, and I think it's going to take me a very very long time to unlearn the lessons from my childhood. For every two steps forward, there is at least one step back...it's just hard.

sitting what exactly is it that has brought this about? Was it you asking for more time and T saying no? Sorry I am reading but its not going in and I'm trying to understand.

Mel (can I call you Mel? )

it is that, and that was the most recent thing, but it happens all the time in different ways. The structure is set up so that it is so one-way.
We're told that therapy is all about us, even to the point where we are advised not to consider the T's feelings mostly - like (another imperfect example) when she says, it's OK for you to yell at me; but WHY is it?! If she hasn't done anything? it only makes me feel miserable for yelling at someone who intends me good and never did anything to me. So I feel guilty for yelling at an innocent person, and I try to restore the balance of justice by apologizing, and to my distress the innocent person refuses to accept my apology (let alone any other kind of recompense).

I think I said, possibly in another thread once, that in my FOO, gifts had strings. You accept now, you owe later. I am almost 3 yrs with T and she gives and gives and gives, and I am forbidden by the structure of therapy to give her anything back so the burden of what I owe just grows and grows and grows and is very heavy now. I am waiting for the "bill" to arrive and it's going to be a killer.
Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. oh well

It really doesn't sound like a good fit between you and your T. I told you how we give back to our Ts, but I'll repeat a little for everyone reading here. When we take steps, it makes our Ts happy. It's our greatest gift to them when make progress. My Ts have told me that, and I've experienced it many times.

You are NOT forbidden in other types of therapy to give back to your T. My Ts have always accepted my apologies. They have accepted gifts and poems that I have written them. Is it CBT Ts that are like this (I'm not putting down CBT, just asking) or is it your Ts personality?

Of course, you pay your T so that's the way you give back. My first T told me that when I brought up this very issue. She said "I do get something back. I get money. But more than that, I feel happy when you take steps."

My new T said "I learn from the therapy too."

You deserve better, SAWE. Or are there many postive qualities about your T you aren't saying right now? Do they outweigh the negatives? This issue about reciprocity is a huge one for you and you deserve to have a T who understands it. What about showing T this thread? I hope you can work it out with her or find a T who can act in a more helpful way with you.

Woooo, time to Defend The Therapist!

it's not her. She IS happy when I make progress. She gives to me all the time, encouragement, ideas, reminders, questions that lead me into new ways of thinking, lots of stuff. The one issue I mentioned is just MY ISSUE, it's not a problem with her; truly if I didn't have issues I wouldn't be in therapy right? We will continue to work on my issue.

When I started this thread I wasn't asking about T and myself and the incident that recently triggered me; I was asking about the therapeutic alliiance and how it can heal the specific issue of reciprocal relationship. I have some very helpful comments here, and T is doing fine and I like her a lot. Really!!

Okay, I'm so glad you clarifed that, SAWE. I was probably projecting my own experiences and I'm sorry. Just trying to help!

Sitting, yeah mel's cool

I see what your saying, I won't say I understand what your saying because we all come with our different life experiences, and though some of what you say are familar to mine, I dont have the strong desire to want to give, I accept my dedication to my therapy and the contract I and T entered together to be all I need to give. But I do now have a feeling of mutual respect with each other, this too is enought in my eyes, but I respect your pain around your issues, even if I dont quite understand.

Melbadaze - maybe it isn't very understandable because it isn't very logical, it's emotional. if I could reason it out, maybe it would go away (maybe not, maybe it requires rewiring, starting to look like it.)
thanks
SAWE

I'm feeling your hurt and confusion....

The relationship between a T and the patient is totally different than any other on earth. It IS reciprocal, but not in the usual ways we are used to, because it IS a different relationship.

I'm glad you told your T you appreciate her. They do need to hear that. They do have to move on though, because therapy is about you and not them.

Now, if you wish to discuss your feelings of appreciation for how the T helps you, is there for you etc, then ask. T should comply and make that a good therapeutic session.

Another way is to actually try and do what T suggests. Giving T feedback is good. You can even drop key sentences like, what I tried is what I think you told me about in a previous session, or, What you suggested worked out good for me, thanks! Whether you continue to discuss it, adding to the previous therapy, is up to you and the T.

If you need more time, more sessions, then you need to bring that up to T. It's unethical for the T to suggest that, as it's looked upon as though they are making more business for him/herself. (On rare occasions when the patient is too terribly depressed and in need of additional sessions per week,and there's no one else to talk about it with, it's on the T to take that responsibility to offer it.)

Sounds like you have an ethical T, and is probably a "keeper" .

Take care.

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It makes total sense to me....I had similar experiences in my FOO. It is hard to learn how to just receive, without the need to reciprocate, but it's a valid lesson. You can't run though life keeping a tab on good/bad people have done. I know it's hard, but keep working at that, you'll have an Ah Ha moment eventually.

I think, in childhood, the relationship we had with our parents and other adults in our lives was designed to be one way. Clearly, as children, there was no way we could possibly reciprocate the care and attention that should have been given us at that time.

I do wonder if the presence of those one way relationships aren't essential in our sense of security, development and ego-strength (even though I'm not exactly sure what ego-strength actually is!). I mean we are entitled to that kind of self-lessness from our parents simply because we are children.

Sadly, it doesn't always work out like that, and we end up thinking that we "owe" people something for paying attention to us, or taking care of us.

Perhaps one of the goals of therapy for some is learning to accept that there can be unconditional attention and support. Perhaps that is something we have to learn to accept, instead of take for granted, as others may do.

I wonder if this acceptance forms the basis for reciprocal relationships in the future - that innate sense that we are entitled to selfless giving and having our needs met because they are simply ours.

I don't know. Sometimes I feel like as though to explode with gratitude towards my therapist - not right now but I have felt that way in the past - but I'm not sure it's necessary. It's their job to help us. We are entitled to that I guess.

My therapeutic relationship does have a lot of reciprocity. It is helping me with relationships in real life. Maybe it just doesn't have all the forms of reciprocity we might wish for but it can include a lot.

That does sound painful. I don't know what that was about, but I think it is a good thing to ask her. There have been times when I misinterpreted something my T said or his body language. When I asked him about it, he was able to set the record straight. I don't understand what Fartraveler meant about this being your T going into "therapist mode." It is therapist mode to put on a blank face? Neither of the two Ts I have had ever did that. SAWE, does your T often put on a blank face? From the way you described it, it sounds like your T was uncomfortable receiving your appreciation. If you confirm with her that is indeed what she meant by her blank face, I hope you can discuss that with her. It seems odd to me a T would not want to receive appreciation. And I would wonder if that is "her issue" that she needs to work on. I do NOT believe you did anything inappropriate by expressing your appreciation. I can see how a T's rejection of a client's appreciation would make the client feel a lack of reciprocity. Once I felt the need to apologize to my T for something I had done. It was a big deal to me that I apologize and so I did. He said first that I didn't need to apologize but then said that he did appreciate my apology and that he accepted. Those two things seem contradictory, but I think what he was saying was that even though he felt I didn't need to apologize, he honored my respect for our relationship and so accepted what I offered to him, which in a way, was the emotional "contract" between us. If he had not accepted my apology, it would have damaged that and in fact, emphasized non-reciprocity. So I do think your T could have been more gracious in accepting your appreciation. That act would have honored your relationship and helped you feel there was some reciprocity.

Do you mean your T has to do this in order for you to feel reciprocity? If this is not a policy of hers (to allow extra time), then it could be you are setting yourself up for disappointment if this is something you believe she has to give you. Is it possible to "let this go" and work productively within the confines of 50 minutes? There are some things that are deal breakers for each of us in therapy. Is not having 90 minute sessions a deal breaker for you?

What stands out to me here is the feeling of powerlessness you have. I wonder if there are any other ways you have power in the relationship besides this? Maybe identifying those would help you not feel so powerless? It would be hard to feel that the sessions were a struggle for power.

I feel my therapeutic relationship is reciprocal so haven't had to confront this issue. I wonder if there is a way for you to feel your relationship is more reciprocal? Does your T also believe it is not reciprocal? Can you think of ways it could be more reciprocal (within the given frame)? Do you think a relationship with a different T could be more reciprocal? (I'm not suggesting you ditch your T, but just wondering if you see the non-reciprocity issue as particular to your T or a quality of therapeutic relationships in general?)

you know sitting, I was wandering why what you are trying to say here isn't registering with me, I know the asking your T for extra time sticks in my mind, so perhaps its connected with that, the feeling of rejection and fear of being forced to remember that ultimately there are times we have to be alone that T's not giving you extra time may have caused? I think thats why I cant' hear you properply here because its reminding me of my own issues around separateness and ultimate aloness?? Do you think theres some of this fear in you at the moment too?