[sittingatwatersedge]

from someone's recent post >>> I think a lot of my work is learning to understand that inside me so she feels less separate from the outside me

T recently commented that people spend their whole lives trying to do this. Does anyone (besides me) find it painful scary daunting (or pick some other words) - to sense that separate-ness of inside you and outside you, to sense the width of the abyss, to try to take up the work of making the two come closer together?

[bpd mess]

It seems so overwhelming. The abyss is massive. Add to it not being sure who the inside me is, and closing that gap can seem downright impossible.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by bpd mess

It seems so overwhelming. The abyss is massive. Add to it not being sure who the inside me is, and closing that gap can seem downright impossible.

I'm with bpd mess, it has never even occurred to me that it's POSSIBLE to close the gap! I'm willing to settle for a little more cooperation. Take care.

[sittingatwatersedge]

you PC folks.... you are THE BEST. When I count my blessings I definitely include you all. What would I do without your insight and kindness.....

Please do not stop posting to this thread if you have a comment; all are welcome. To me it this an incomprehensible task, and I am doubting myself, wondering if I can even attempt it.

I hadn't ever thought of it like this, but it does sound overwhelming! I don't really know who I am inside, and the 'outside' me that presents can vary wildly depending on the day (or, more honestly, the minute) and context and who I'm interacting with.

The biggest gap for me is between the constant anxiety and abandonment and terror I feel inside, and the calm, self assured, in control adult I mainly manage to present, especially at work. My T calls this 'apparent competence'. She said she mainly used to rely on this too. I said I hoped it wasn't *all* apparent competence!

[SpiritRunner]

After a couple months, my T told me that she had at first wondered why I was there, as I seemed as though I had it all together - presented a calm, controlled exterior. However, the interior is stormy......and I just built up an exterior purposefully to make sure no one could see just how stormy, or sad or scarred, the interior is. Like T has said, I've not just functioned well, though, I've over-functioned to make up for the interior difference I feel...
This separateness is something that has been even more acute to me these last few weeks...what I deal with in session, and then going back to the controlled public version of myself, while I feel even more undone within.
Actually, it has been difficult to even truly open the inside me to T at all! Learning to do that, and doing it, is something that has left me feeling more out of control than I like....like things are coming loose in there, like some of the inside is coming out, and some of the outside is going in a bit (that's probably an odd way of saying 'close the gap'! but what I mean is, finding more balance, less separation between the inside/outside.)

I think for me, I had to learn who was IN there. I am so good at presenting a certain "outside" and that outside was pretty much completely unrelated to my inside for my whole life. It makes me sad, actually.

I do think that I am slowly, slowly bringing my inside and outside together. When I let myself feel my real feelings. When I check in to see what I need, and I ask to have that need met. When I show T my inside, and he loves and accepts and soothes me. When I accept my thoughts, feelings, needs, desires, fears without judgment.

I still have a long way to go. But the more we integrate the past trauma and old feelings, the closer I think I get.

I just want to be one, real person.

[sunrise]

SAWE, my T talked to me about this really early in therapy. He referred to it as being authentic--presenting the true inner self to the world as one's outer self--and being congruent (inner and outer selves match). I think he has a high degree of authenticity and it helps me to be around him as he models this to me. He doesn't consciously say "I will model this so sunny can see how this is done." He just does it because that is who he is, and it helps me a lot, as many of those closest to me in my past were not authentic/congruent at all, so no surprise I didn't end up that way too. Since therapy, I think I have become more authentic/congruent. It actually feels really good when I can manage it! A first step for me was just realizing what that inner self was feeling. Then making that evident on the outside was next. I try to practice this with T. For example, I don't let myself say things to him that are not authentic--e.g. I feel one way inside and I say the opposite to him. If I can't bring myself to be authentic, then I say nothing, so at least I'm not actively being inauthentic. I just make it a rule to not present him with a false face. If I can't do it with him, then no way can I do it out in real life.

Good topic, SAWE.

[Ygrec23]

Hmmmm. I'm wondering whether there are different concepts of "inner persons" being talked about here. I just read Sunrise's latest post below. Apparently, she and her T are focussing on two fully conscious selves from whom one can make a conscious decision to adopt particular aspects as being more "authentic."

By "inner person," I myself meant something quite different. Buried way deep inside of me, perhaps around 90% unconscious, is a very different guy. He's MUCH smarter than I am, and now and then, when I'm stuck, he'll get exasperated and send me down a message regarding what to do. Since I started therapy this time, he has apparently accepted the reality that things are bad enough to justify more cooperation than normal.

I don't believe that who I am to the outside world is that different (if different at all) from who I am when I'm sitting at home. Maybe I should be!! That could for all I know be part of the problem!

Well, that's really a question for all of you. Which are you talking about as an "inner person," a semi-unconscious self or a conscious self you repress when dealing with the outer world?

Take care!

[Melbadaze]

Yeah I'm not sure my "inner v outer" is what is meant here, for instance my schizoid position is what I feel as inner, the split of emotions I have and project into the world like when I'm in a crowd I feel as if everyone on the outside is a danger, I am afraid. T said its my own fear that was split off and i experience it as "out there" in the world coming to me, instead of coming from me. The "real and false" self is another issue, and no I dont feel afraid of learning about this at all, infact I've always hungered to bridge that gap, but claiming back split off parts, thats more daunting, if the fear was so frightening as a young baby and felt monstrous so much so that I split it off, then inside that part still puts up Resistance to claiming it back, this what most of my therapy consists off.

[Sannah]

It wasn't something that I remember really even focusing on. I worked on all sorts of things from self worth, meeting my needs, living in the present, my feelings, etc. and my integration just came together one day (I'm sure it was gradual, however). It does feel great to be integrated, however......

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Hmmmm. I'm wondering whether there are different concepts of "inner persons" being talked about here. I just read Sunrise's latest post below. Apparently, she and her T are focussing on two fully conscious selves from whom one can make a conscious decision to adopt particular aspects as being more "authentic."

thanks Ygrec. Sunny I think Ygrec sees what I was asking about; I don't have words exactly but it's not congruence I meant. Many of these posts I could have written myself, to me this is a very complex question.

and not wishing any bad stuff for anyone else, but actually I'm a bit relieved to find out that it isn't just me who senses it.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

I just read Sunrise's latest post below. Apparently, she and her T are focussing on two fully conscious selves from whom one can make a conscious decision to adopt particular aspects as being more "authentic."

Ygrec, I think a lot of it is unconscious, at least for me. I can't say T and I have really focused on this. In a way, it is more of an outcome of therapy--as we do a lot of work, my inner self (really "selves") become more known to me through following clues, dream work, ego state therapy, etc. I have come to know myself better, and when I know myself better, then there is the possibility of making that person more manifest (the presenting or outer self)--perhaps that is the more directed part, which is difficult for me. All that excavating and discovery can be really fascinating (and also painful) work, but can I take the insights and knowledge and bring them to my external world? I had a really transformational dream a couple of years ago, and that was a central theme. When I feel lost, returning to this dream and its imagery and associated feeling can help me remember what healing for me might be. Sometimes I can lose sight of that, just "forget" what is going on with my psyche--don't know how to explain it...

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

I don't believe that who I am to the outside world is that different (if different at all) from who I am when I'm sitting at home.

It is this way for me too.

Originally Posted by Ygrec

Which are you talking about as an "inner person," a semi-unconscious self or a conscious self you repress when dealing with the outer world?

I think mine is more a semi-unconscious self. I don't engage in an active repression, at least most of the time (ha ha).

Originally Posted by Ygrec

Buried way deep inside of me, perhaps around 90% unconscious, is a very different guy. He's MUCH smarter than I am, and now and then, when I'm stuck, he'll get exasperated and send me down a message regarding what to do. Since I started therapy this time, he has apparently accepted the reality that things are bad enough to justify more cooperation than normal.

It sounds like this guy has some good qualities. He sounds smart and like he has good ideas that have been helpful to you in the past. I hope you are able to take advantage of his strengths. In a way, I wonder if is it a relief to you to know he exists? One of the things my T and I worked on in ego state therapy was trying to get us all to work together, to have common goals, to allow each to contribute, and to deliberately value their contributions so they wouldn't feel unwanted, rejected, etc. (And to communicate if well-intentioned interventions were in fact somewhat unhelpful.) My T is a family systems therapist, and ego state therapy is kind of like doing family therapy with one's family of selves. Your comment about cooperation brings a smile of recollection, as I recall one self who was eager to cooperate with my T but didn't want "me" involved in that. He wanted to make decisions with my T for my benefit. Kind of a "top down" self.... Where is this self now? That question scares me, so I don't consider it.

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

Sunny I think Ygrec sees what I was asking about; I don't have words exactly but it's not congruence I meant.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I think for me congruence is wrapped up in knowing my inner selves (bridging the abyss?), so I'm confused now about the difference, and maybe for me they are intertwined rather than distinctly separate things, so that's why my thinking is muddled. I find a lot of what people have posted reminds me of my experiences, and their insights help me consider new interpretations.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Sunny thanks for your comments; I don't mean to discount anything that you say - in fact you have always proved to have a great deal of insight and common sense... sorry.... like I said, it's a complex thing for me, I don't know that anyone has or doesn't ahve an answer, just thought I would put it out there................

[Ygrec23]

Ygrec, I think a lot of it is unconscious, at least for me. I can't say T and I have really focused on this. In a way, it is more of an outcome of therapy--as we do a lot of work, my inner self (really "selves") become more known to me through following clues, dream work, ego state therapy, etc.

My "inner self" (just one) has contacted me now and then since I was twelve or thirteen. He understands reality FAR better than I do, he's quite decisive and otherwise I haven't any idea what he's doing. (Of course we're speaking of part of me, but it's easier to characterize him as a "person" when writing like this.) I resent the hell out of him. He knows far better than I do what to do in difficult or tricky situations and he very rarely gives me the benefit of his knowledge. When he does, I can tell, because something will be different. For example, I'll be sleeping at night and having my usual vague, incomprehensible dreams. Then, suddenly, the visual focus in the dream will become utterly sharp - colors, shapes, people, dialog - and the "message" from this sharp part of the dream will be impossible to miss. I'd swear the sonofa***** is condescending. We do not have a happy relationship. I also get messages from him in daylight hours.

It sounds like this guy has some good qualities. He sounds smart and like he has good ideas that have been helpful to you in the past. I hope you are able to take advantage of his strengths. In a way, I wonder if is it a relief to you to know he exists?

He's no good to me unless he cooperates. And through almost all of my life until now, he hasn't been doing that.

One of the things my T and I worked on in ego state therapy was trying to get us all to work together, to have common goals, to allow each to contribute, and to deliberately value their contributions so they wouldn't feel unwanted, rejected, etc. (And to communicate if well-intentioned interventions were in fact somewhat unhelpful.)

That sounds great. I'll have to talk it over with my T and see if we can do some "ego state therapy."

My T is a family systems therapist, and ego state therapy is kind of like doing family therapy with one's family of selves. Your comment about cooperation brings a smile of recollection, as I recall one self who was eager to cooperate with my T but didn't want "me" involved in that. He wanted to make decisions with my T for my benefit. Kind of a "top down" self.... Where is this self now? That question scares me, so I don't consider it.

"Wanted to make decisions with my T for my benefit." Yeah. That sounds like something mine would try to do too.

OK, thanks for clarifying. I think for me congruence is wrapped up in knowing my inner selves (bridging the abyss?)...

Yes. Knowing your/my inner self would be great. Is there an easier way to do it? I assume that what we're all talking about here is really what Socrates called his "daemon." (That's NOT "demon," by the way.) But what in heck is the purpose of such a thing if not to cooperate with the conscious mind? What does it DO all the time it's sitting there silent? How did such things evolve? It's frustrating, as you may well know. Thank you for your thoughts. Take care!