[rainbow8]

This is not a criticism of the "fantasy" threads about our Ts because I love them. However, does anyone feel a discrepancy between those feelings and the "finger at the moon" concept? I felt sad when I posted my wish that T and I could be walking by the lake and talking together. That would be looking at T's finger, not at the moon. It would be better for me to think about walking by the lake with my husband. Which we've done, by the way.

So, are the fantasies working against looking at the moon? Or is that just me? I can't get the image out of my mind of T and me walking and talking together now. It's not a romantic fantasy, just a nice one, but it's not gonna happen!

[SpiritRunner]

I think it's OK to acknowledge that, while we need to accept the reality of looking beyond T's finger to the moon, we also need to accept/acknowledge the very real wishes we might have to just have a normal experience with them, too - be with them as real people in real life, maybe like looking at the moon together in real life. I don't know.....I'd love to have a 'real' moment with my T, and see what it would be like to be with her without the therapy stuff (without having to pay her to be with her! )....but then, as you say, I have a husband, family, dear friends, with whom I can share those moments. On the other hand, here is a person, my T, who has a very special role in my life, with whom I have indeed already shared some fairly emotional, intense, dramatic moments, and what would it mean to sit by the water and look at the moonlight with her, and just be quietly together....ah well. I think it's OK to have the fantasy and enjoy the fantasy, perhaps, so long as we know not to dive so deeply into the fantasy that we lose sight of what's beautiful in the reality or the strength of the fantasy makes reality seem painful in its contrast.....

[Kacey2]

I like this Rainbow. What do you mean, this won't come true?
I have gotten on my knees every night for the last two years to pray that t will adopt me into his family.

He told me that I would be disappointed in him in real life just as he disappoints me in therapy. I have not said anything in return about that but if he really understood how I had to live growing up he would understand that it wouldn't take much for me to totally appreciate the functional mostly loving family he has.

I am definately struggling with seeing the moon. I want the finger from t and no not the middle finger.........that is the one I give to him lately!

[ECHOES]

So, are the fantasies working against looking at the moon?

It seems like it did work this way for me. And it feels good sometimes, and lonely sometimes.

Originally Posted by ECHOES

It seems like it did work this way for me. And it feels good sometimes, and lonely sometimes.

Echoes, this perfectly sums it up. Thank you.

Rainbow, I don't know the answer. But like you, I am wondering...

[Fartraveler]

No, it's all part of the same thing. You can mindfully cherish the relationship you have with your therapist, and also mindfully cherish the relationships you have with all other beings -- humans, animals, minerals, environment.

It's not that one's fake and the other is real. They're all real. They're all unique, they're all what they are. But they all exist.

Rainbow, you seem to have a lovely relationship with your T. And maybe the fantasies are just part of that?

-Far

[Perna]

Reminds me of John Denver's song lyrics, "Shanghai Breezes"

And the moon and the stars are the same ones you see
it's the same old sun up in the sky
And your voice in my ear is like heaven to me
like the breezes here in old Shanghai

T looks at the moon and you look at the moon and it is the discussion with each other about what you see/feel that is the star attraction for me (sorry for the pun :-) not the moon.

[Kacey2]

Originally Posted by poetgirl76

I think it's OK to acknowledge that, while we need to accept the reality of looking beyond T's finger to the moon, we also need to accept/acknowledge the very real wishes we might have to just have a normal experience with them, too - be with them as real people in real life, maybe like looking at the moon together in real life. I don't know.....I'd love to have a 'real' moment with my T, and see what it would be like to be with her without the therapy stuff (without having to pay her to be with her! )....but then, as you say, I have a husband, family, dear friends, with whom I can share those moments. On the other hand, here is a person, my T, who has a very special role in my life, with whom I have indeed already shared some fairly emotional, intense, dramatic moments, and what would it mean to sit by the water and look at the moonlight with her, and just be quietly together....ah well. I think it's OK to have the fantasy and enjoy the fantasy, perhaps, so long as we know not to dive so deeply into the fantasy that we lose sight of what's beautiful in the reality or the strength of the fantasy makes reality seem painful in its contrast.....

Nicely put PoetGirl!

For me, I feel like it's okay to have fantasies about T. For sure. And I've had a lot.

I think that the "finger at the moon" is a reminder to me that there is an end goal...I want to see the moon, not spend my life focused on the finger. But there are many many lessons to learn along the way, and T is helping me learn those lessons. It's not black/white for me. Maybe a gradual transition.

I do love T so much though, and I can't wait to see him tomorrow. He may be the "finger", but what a huge gift he has given me...before he pointed, I didn't even know there was a moon OUT THERE, you know?

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by Fartraveler

No, it's all part of the same thing. You can mindfully cherish the relationship you have with your therapist, and also mindfully cherish the relationships you have with all other beings -- humans, animals, minerals, environment.

It's not that one's fake and the other is real. They're all real. They're all unique, they're all what they are. But they all exist.

mindfully cherish.....I love that!

[learning1]

Originally Posted by Perna

T looks at the moon and you look at the moon and it is the discussion with each other about what you see/feel that is the star attraction for me (sorry for the pun :-) not the moon.

To me, it seems like a discussion together about what we see/feel is a step in the right direction, but it still bothers me that I'm paying for it. Well, I still feel like I'm just starting but already worried about getting pulled in, maybe away from the moon. Have to remind myself I wanted to do this for a reason.

nice lyrics.

[rainbow8]

I see T tomorrow. I can't find the middle ground in my mind. I know I have a lot to talk about the "moon", to continue the analogy, but I want to connect with her so badly. What you said, Perna, about looking together at the moon, is true, but it seems like "either/or" to me. I want something that I can't have then.

Far, but it's sad for me.....
Poet, that's my struggle. I lose sight of the reality because the fantasy is always better. Then I have my session and the reality hits me. There has to be enough of a connection between T and me, a REAL connection, for me not to want the fantasy.

I don't know what to do....

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I see T tomorrow. I can't find the middle ground in my mind. I know I have a lot to talk about the "moon", to continue the analogy, but I want to connect with her so badly. What you said, Perna, about looking together at the moon, is true, but it seems like "either/or" to me. I want something that I can't have then.

Far, but it's sad for me.....
Poet, that's my struggle. I lose sight of the reality because the fantasy is always better. Then I have my session and the reality hits me. There has to be enough of a connection between T and me, a REAL connection, for me not to want the fantasy.

I don't know what to do....

rainbow, there are times I do feel like there is special, real connection between my T and I....times I know it, and there is a wonderful glow from those times which I hug to myself for a little while. then I realize again that the reality is that the connection, special as it is and beautiful as it is, is only really in the therapeutic relationship.....and neither reality nor fantasy suffices, because the reality is too stark and vivid to allow myself any fantasy! the truth gets in the way....but the truth also sets me free from obsessing or getting waaayyy too attached!

I don't think it's all or nothing or either-or. By looking at the moon, I don't think you have to give up the connection with your T. Your T is still the one pointing.

My old T was/is great about helping me see that I can have both--I know not all Ts are like this, but she has said that she will be in my life for as long as I want her there. She is not going to disappear just because I'm getting my needs met in the real world, so to speak.

Of course, that doesn't mean she fulfills any of my fantasies. She's not my surrogate mom or friend. She's still my mentor/former T with all the boundaries that come with those titles. So there is a part of me that finds it painful--the young part who wishes old T had been my mommy.

Also, fwiw, I did go for a walk with old T once. Just a stroll around the neighborhood because my baby daughter at the time was with me in session and she was crying and so we walked to get her to sleep and finished our session on the walk. It was a nice walk, but did not live up to any fantasy I would have had about going for a friendly stroll with T! I got MUCH more out of our face-to-face time in her office.

So I do think reality never lives up to the fantasy.

I want to edit that last statement:

The fantasies have been disappointing for me, but when I look honestly at reality and what I DO Have with T, it is so much more comforting than any fantasy. I hope that makes sense...

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I see T tomorrow. I can't find the middle ground in my mind. I know I have a lot to talk about the "moon", to continue the analogy, but I want to connect with her so badly. What you said, Perna, about looking together at the moon, is true, but it seems like "either/or" to me. I want something that I can't have then.

Far, but it's sad for me.....
Poet, that's my struggle. I lose sight of the reality because the fantasy is always better. Then I have my session and the reality hits me. There has to be enough of a connection between T and me, a REAL connection, for me not to want the fantasy.

I don't know what to do....

What would a real connection look like to you? I don't know, but my guess is that there is more of a connection there than you think.

Maybe?

[Omers]

I spent several years with several therapists staring at the finger obsessively. My current T was very helpful in how bluntly she squished and thought that the fantasies might come true. Vut in reality... I just gave up and closed my eyes.

However... When I asked massage T if we could do something together that wasn't all about me and she said yes I just about fell over. Spending that hour with her in the flower garden was SO healing and, in honesty, I believe it is why I can look at the moon now. I learned for the first time I can be like this in the "real world". A therapist office is so controled and steril no matter how they decorate it and you never get to see T interact socially rather than professionally.
Dunno, maybe because I am aspi I don't generalize things from therapy to the real world as well as others. ???

[rainbow8]

I just lost my entire post! Here I go again. Thanks poetgirl, griffin, elliemay, and omers.

I feel the connection with my T but I think the fact that I don't get an email like I used to makes her seem very distant from me. I don't need an answer to what I emailed because I know what she would say. It's just the connection that's missing.

There are so many ways the connection is there. You're right, elliemay. I know it's real, but the boundaries are there, like those buzzers I held in my hand last session while we did the EMDR. Just to remind myself of the ways T and I connect that are special to me:

the teddy bears, especially because she took hers with her on her trip, and it was her idea

putting my collage up on her wall

letting me email and answering me (when she did)

letting me email her other articles just because I wanted to

holding my hand when I didn't feel well after a session, walking me out to my car

doing breathing exercises with me; we're together

Emailing me when she got home from her trips,a few times. I wonder if she will still do that?

She's such a good T. I have to remember that.

[SpiritRunner]

Thinking about the reality vs. fantasy discussion here today.....maybe because this is all so strong on my mind is part of what makes it feel like my session today was so disappointing....the reality really sucked today! No, she did nothing wrong........but the connection felt muted and I simply feel frustrated about it! But of course, reality is that in every relationship there are times when the connection feels stronger and times when it feels muted, or whatever........of course, this messes with what my real fantasy wish is, that the connection would never feel muted and I would always be able to feel certain of its strength!

[rainbow8]

poet, I'm sorry your session was like that. I know how awful it feels. It's what I was saying. If we can't have the fantasy, at least let the real connection be there. If neither are, the feelings are almost intolerable! I'm afraid to go tomorrow. I almost emailed again, but don't know what to say. Sometimes I hate therapy!!!

When a session is disappointing, how do you deal with that? I've never had any good ways except posting here.

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

poet, I'm sorry your session was like that. I know how awful it feels. It's what I was saying. If we can't have the fantasy, at least let the real connection be there. If neither are, the feelings are almost intolerable! I'm afraid to go tomorrow. I almost emailed again, but don't know what to say. Sometimes I hate therapy!!!

When a session is disappointing, how do you deal with that? I've never had any good ways except posting here.

Thanks, rainbow! Well, I had a good kick at the tires before I got in my car, then took myself to Dairy Queen, got a chocolate ice cream cone and went for a little drive with the windows down and cold air streaming in to get my senses cleared a bit! Then I journaled a little bit at home, played with the kids, and hopped on here! Just not focusing on the disappointment and distracting myself is what I have to do....after a bit of time, I can focus better on the fact the therapeutic connection is really still there....It's probably that things have been in a bit of crisis mode with stuff going on in my life/mind/emotions right now, so my T has been operating in that sort of mode with me, which makes the whole thing feel different....

I have no idea what you guys are talking about. What is the finger at the moon?

[rainbow8]

Read tree's thread about it. I realize how strange it all sounds, doesnt it!!

A finger pointing to the moon ( 1 2)

Is that all there is to posting a link? Never done it like that before.

Originally Posted by poetgirl76

Well, I had a good kick at the tires before I got in my car, then took myself to Dairy Queen, got a chocolate ice cream cone and went for a little drive with the windows down and cold air streaming in to get my senses cleared a bit! Then I journaled a little bit at home, played with the kids, and hopped on here! Just not focusing on the disappointment and distracting myself is what I have to do....

THAT is an awesome list, poetgirl. Seriously. I love the ice cream/windows down/cold air to bring you back to now. I'm going to remember that.

Thanks for sharing