[granite1]

after a year and 3 months i still cant talk to my T at all.i mean everyonce in a while i will be able to speak some words like yes,no and hello.on a good week maybe a sentance.and on an amazing week maybe two.but i know that isnt enought at all.i really do want to talk so bad it just about kills me(exsept in session)but now i believe my T is so frustrated she is just giving up slowly.things have changed with her.eversence i wrote her this letter about one day when i went to therapy and felt she as not her that someone took her.i explained her office was differnt and some of the things i didnt like and some things i did.she seemed irritated bye it but at the time i didnt pick up on how much.she went around the room and explained things about the windows and the art stuff on the shelfs etc...telling me i could sit on the floor anytime i wanted and if i wanted to do art the stuff was on the shelf and i could just get up and get it that i wasnt rocket science.ever sence that session she hasnt asked about art or sitting on the floor or relaxation or anything.she kind of just says hi asks what is on my mind and then just sits thare waiting.saying something small everyonce in a wile.when she does talk it is so far away and unmeaningfull.like she is reading from a script.like the comment last monday was "so are you going to feel the same way when you leave here as when you came in"i said i dont understand.she responded bye saying."when you come in here you seem to have something going on or feeling but i dont know what is is because you dont tell mei am just left to guess.just want to know if you will be going home feeling the same way"the way she said this was so sarcastic.i just wanted to say i was sorry for comming and i wanted to run out.i just really think she has given up on me and trying to help me talk or even helping me at all.i dont know what to do.i dont want to find a new T that idea scraes me and it would be the same problem.i just cant talk to her that scares me.i have been seeing her for over a year and she still has no idea who i am exsept probibly the girl who doesnt want to talk and is wasting my time.i just feel so stuck and down.this is ontop of a bunch of other stuff going on.anyway sorry to vent she just seems so frustrated and not wanting to work wwith me at all anymorei cant blame her i totally understand this has happened before.i just hope she will tell me that it is time to stop that she doesnt want to work with me anymore

(((((((((Granite))))))))))))) i really hope t keeps working with you. she has been there. next session bring some crayons and paper and sit on the floor and then ask her what color crayon she wants...

your post sounds so painful,,, i really hope you feel better soon

[3velniai]

(((granite))) I read all your posts. I know you don't want to look for a new T, but maybe finding a new T isn't such a bad idea. Ts are people, they're different too, ones are easier to talk to, and others are not. On the other hand, 3 months isn't that long. I'm in therapy for almost 2 (or 3, idk) years. It took me a very long time to start talking to T at all, and only now I start to mention very personal stuff and move away from the small talk. One thing that really helped me to feel better about talking was sessions on Skype. I mean chat, not video. Maybe you could try to come up with new ideas and propose them to T, maybe she would he willing to try new stuff instead of just sitting there and doing nothing.
The way she showed you the room, I'd understand it as a way to show that you can do whatever you want in there and she's ok with whatever you choose. Now you know where she keeps stuff for art, next time you want to do some art you can just take what you want and do it, you don't have to ask for it. Asking for stuff is hard, now you don't really have to do it, she gave you permission to do whatever you want in T. It's not giving up, to me it sounds more like trying to make your life easier. Even if you feel like she's giving up, it's not necessarily true. Ts who give refer ppl to other Ts or something like that.

[granite1]

Originally Posted by 3velniai

(((granite))) I read all your posts. I know you don't want to look for a new T, but maybe finding a new T isn't such a bad idea. Ts are people, they're different too, ones are easier to talk to, and others are not. On the other hand, 3 months isn't that long. I'm in therapy for almost 2 (or 3, idk) years. It took me a very long time to start talking to T at all, and only now I start to mention very personal stuff and move away from the small talk. One thing that really helped me to feel better about talking was sessions on Skype. I mean chat, not video. Maybe you could try to come up with new ideas and propose them to T, maybe she would he willing to try new stuff instead of just sitting there and doing nothing.
The way she showed you the room, I'd understand it as a way to show that you can do whatever you want in there and she's ok with whatever you choose. Now you know where she keeps stuff for art, next time you want to do some art you can just take what you want and do it, you don't have to ask for it. Asking for stuff is hard, now you don't really have to do it, she gave you permission to do whatever you want in T. It's not giving up, to me it sounds more like trying to make your life easier. Even if you feel like she's giving up, it's not necessarily true. Ts who give refer ppl to other Ts or something like that.

i think about finding a new T but am afraid to do it it really took all i had to find this one and i am terrified to tell her i would want to see another T.and i'm not so sure it would make a difference anyway not talking is a big huge issue with me and have gone through a few T's and i kind of said i wanted to try and stick this one out because it wouldnt be any differnt.oh and i have been with this T for a year and three months.the longest i have been with a T sence i got out of residential treatment.thanks for your support it means a lot

Originally Posted by granite1

just want to know if you will be going home feeling the same way"

((((((((((((((Granite))))))))))))))))))

T asks me this sometimes, and I will say it myself sometimes..."OMG, I can't believe I am going to leave here feeling the same way I did when I came in" I wonder if she meant something mean/sarcastic/whatever by it...or if she is just curious and concerned? When my T and I are having a session that seems to be going nowhere, he will almost ALWAYS ask near the end of the session "what do you need before you leave?". And I have no idea, usually, but I know he's just struggling to figure out what will be helpful before he sends me back out into the world.

I know the floor feels safe to you. What if you just go into the next session and sit right down on the floor? Sometimes in therapy, I just want to curl up on the couch and hide my face and drift away - and sometimes I do - but I also know I want to feel better, and part of that is going to be doing things that are just ridiculously, almost unbearably, uncomfortable. I hate it...but then after I make myself do whatever it is (draw a picture, engage with T, make eye contact, tell a story), there is some relief.

Whenever I've felt like T was giving up on me, it's turned out that it's really been ME giving up on my MYSELF...T stays the same consistent, solid, caring person all the time. Do you think that *you* are giving up, granite??

Hang in there. I know this is just so so so hard.

[ECHOES]

You went from her saying she wished you could share what is going on with you and that she is left having to guess (which may make her feel frustrated) to her not wanting to work with you. That's a big leap.

Aren't you both actually on the same page, wanting you to be able to say more?

What if you gave yourself permission next session to say anything at all that comes to mind, without weighing it, judging it, wondering what might happen if you say it.
Give yourself permission and encouragement to put something out there for the two of you to look at together.

I'm not saying it will be a breeze. It will be a step in a direction that feels unfamiliar and scary. We can do things that feel unfamiliar and scary, all the while recognizing and speaking about it feeling unfamiliar and scary.

She is being an excellent therapist by not leading you in a direction, mentioning art, etc. This is your time and you get to decide that. That is another thing that can feel unfamiliar and scary and very exposing.

I think when we are really resistant and we spend time focusing on all these things outside of us, like the room (I do too) and things in the room, and then when we have worked through that and that can't be a distraction and defense anymore, it feels scary because that leaves the room as we have accepted it, reluctantly or not, and the therapist and ourself. We might try to go back to focusing on something in the room, but it's lost it's power to distract for long, so then it's back to T and self.

You can do this. You aren't on a timetable, but I think you are in a different place in therapy than when you began. Do you think so?

My T told me also at one point that she felt frustrated from having to guess, from being expected to guess. It was hard to hear, but when I put myself in her shoes, I could understand how that would be for her. We also talked about the effect of "caring" that is expressed in someone guessing, someone caring enough to go looking for what might be on my mind, and to bring it out to hep me with it. So we explored that aspect of it.

I think you are so hard on you, and you take that and decide that's what she feels too. She feels what she feels. She may feel frustrated because she wants more for you and she wants to know what you keep from her, in bits as you feel okay letting her see.

[Sannah]

Granite, you are talking more but you don't give yourself any credit for that. You want to go from never talking to fully talking at all times. Change doesn't happen like that. Change is gradual and you need to be patient and hopeful and celebrate your small victories. I am wondering if you are projecting your frustration with yourself onto your therapist?

[SpiritRunner]

I think you've had some excellent answers here, granite! I have to wonder, too, if it isn't really something in you that is feeling weary of the struggle to talk, that you have an expectation of yourself that you should be talking more.......when maybe, if you look at it a bit, you have made more progress than you think!
My T mentioned to me (when I was feeling upset that it was so hard for me to talk) someone who she saw for 6 months before this person even talked to her at all! The person would come in and sit there and draw and say nothing at all.....eventually she was able to talk bit by bit, it just took time and patient waiting....but healing did happen!
dear granite, maybe your T is being more patient with you and your progress than you are being with yourself and your progress!

[Kacey2]

Granite,
You may be right, your t may be frusterated with you. My t kept his frusteration to himself and it makes a bigger wedge between us. It is when he is honest and says, "I am frusterated with your doing this" that makes me move into a direction that is beneficial for my therapy and to our working relationship. I had this conversation with one of the online t's (you know the ones you can pay for the hour) on LivePersons about issues with my own t. They told me that yes indeed therapists get frusterated with their clients and it is usually when they feel they are not helping them. Your t may be in a position where she feels that way and also where she feels that if she communicates that with you, you may not tolerate that rupture.

Granite I too have my own therapy interrupting behaviors. Then I have to ask myself, "Why on earth am I refusing to talk to the one person I have entrusted my care into and pay to help me?" What is driving this? Therapy is pretty hard to do with out words. Now I know that there are people who will counter that by saying that there is healing just in the relationship and being connected to another in that time. I get those times are real and can have a strong impact on our sense of safety and belonging however that is not the core element to therapy. (sitting and just being with another person) It is as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I hope that you can start writing a letter to t and bringing it into your sessions. She will be grateful that you are using your words to communicate to her. She will be able to take what you have written and guide you into the conversation. Maybe you could make a list of the fears you have about talking to t. Then you could take one each time and talk about it. Granite, I feel for you. I really get it. Therapy is soooo difficult. It is a ton of work and it feels like a bad deal at times. It is my hope that you will be able to work this out first within yourself meaning the resolution to do what it takes to "talk" in therapy and then work on your t relationship and see where it takes you.

Your t obviously cares about you and has a connection with you otherwise she would have referred you to someone else by now. There is something that she is hanging onto just as you are to work this out. My t says that he has gotten tougher in therapy since working with me. That doing what is easier for the client is not neccessarily the most loving thing to do. Could that possibly be where your t is at right now?

[Perna]

I would print out this post and take it to her to read (so she knows how you feel since you don't tell her). What T says goes to inside you and bounces around but she gets no feedback; she doesn't know that you are perceiving her words as sarcastic, she doesn't get to be in that "conversation" happening inside you, just your imagined T gets to be in there with you.

I liked her question of whether how she perceives you when you come in, as having something going on, is how you feel when you leave (still something going on). She is trying to see what/if you are getting anything out of therapy by asking you a yes/no question, something that you might be able to answer. She doesn't accept her perceptions 100%, as you do, she checks them out with the person she is perceiving them about.

Imagine you are blind and walking down a path with only someone else's verbal commands to tell you where to step. That is what everyone is like with each other. We can't see inside of another person, can't have any idea whatsoever about what they are thinking, and even with what they say, can get it wrong because of our own filters (like your feeling she said something in a sarcastic way; that's how you feel, not necessarily how she said/feels it to be). Without the verbal though, the other person is wholly/totally blind and cannot move at all.

[granite1]

wow to come home from work and read all these was amazingi really feel i need to respond to each and everyone of you because it all makes so much sence and i really want to work all this out i dont want to loose another T.i really do like this one.dont know about trust but i do like her.

[granite1]

Originally Posted by treehouse

((((((((((((((Granite))))))))))))))))))

I know the floor feels safe to you. What if you just go into the next session and sit right down on the floor? Sometimes in therapy, I just want to curl up on the couch and hide my face and drift away - and sometimes I do - but I also know I want to feel better, and part of that is going to be doing things that are just ridiculously, almost unbearably, uncomfortable. I hate it...but then after I make myself do whatever it is (draw a picture, engage with T, make eye contact, tell a story), there is some relief.

Whenever I've felt like T was giving up on me, it's turned out that it's really been ME giving up on my MYSELF...T stays the same consistent, solid, caring person all the time. Do you think that *you* are giving up, granite??

tree i really do fear so much that when i leave i will feel worse that T will not be able to make me feel calmer if i talk about hard things.i will go home and do horrible things and she will go home and have dinner.i know also that i totally am feeling like giving up on myself.simple things like talking seem so impossablei just dont think T understands.i am also frustrated

Originally Posted by ECHOES

What if you gave yourself permission next session to say anything at all that comes to mind, without weighing it, judging it, wondering what might happen if you say it.
Give yourself permission and encouragement to put something out there for the two of you to look at together.

I'm not saying it will be a breeze. It will be a step in a direction that feels unfamiliar and scary. We can do things that feel unfamiliar and scary, all the while recognizing and speaking about it feeling unfamiliar and scary.

She is being an excellent therapist by not leading you in a direction, mentioning art, etc. This is your time and you get to decide that. That is another thing that can feel unfamiliar and scary and very exposing.

You can do this. You aren't on a timetable, but I think you are in a different place in therapy than when you began. Do you think so?

.

echos i dont even know what i would want to say and OMG yes it would be and is terrifing for me .i wonder if my T would even understand thisi have so many doubts and fears.i swear just talking seems like the hardest thing ever not a breeze at all.
thanks i do feel i am in a differnt place.at first i couldnt even say hi.now i sometimes can and can talk some.like yes and no.and sometimes sentences

Originally Posted by Sannah

Granite, you are talking more but you don't give yourself any credit for that. You want to go from never talking to fully talking at all times. Change doesn't happen like that. Change is gradual and you need to be patient and hopeful and celebrate your small victories. I am wondering if you are projecting your frustration with yourself onto your therapist?

thanks sannah.sometimes i do feel like i talk more and that scares me to.and then i go for a month or so without being able to say anything.i wish i could find that safe balence and not always feel so yuck and everything.
maybe i am projecting some but i do believe she is frustrated.and i cant blame her at all

Originally Posted by poetgirl76

granite! I have to wonder, too, if it isn't really something in you that is feeling weary of the struggle to talk, that you have an expectation of yourself that you should be talking more.......when maybe, if you look at it a bit, you have made more progress than you think!

i am very tired and weary of not being able to talk.over and over again i have just put up with losses and other things just because i wont speak.and i am feeling like my T is next.i do feel i should be talking more or atleast some.i really dont know about the progress.i have made some but i just wish i could ust get over this.

Originally Posted by Kacey2

Granite,
I feel for you. I really get it. Therapy is soooo difficult. It is a ton of work and it feels like a bad deal at times. It is my hope that you will be able to work this out first within yourself meaning the resolution to do what it takes to "talk" in therapy and then work on your t relationship and see where it takes you.

wow this comment hit home this is just what i wish i could do but cant seem to and is so frustrating how would you start to work this out within myself.this just seems like it would take such a strong person and dont know if this is me but maybe.sometimes i do just get the attitude i'm just going to do this.

Originally Posted by Perna

I liked her question of whether how she perceives you when you come in, as having something going on, is how you feel when you leave (still something going on). She is trying to see what/if you are getting anything out of therapy by asking you a yes/no question, something that you might be able to answer. She doesn't accept her perceptions 100%, as you do, she checks them out with the person she is perceiving them about.

i am so afraid that if i tell her that i do leave in the same shape that she will feel also that she cant help me and refer me or just stop seeing me.i just dont know if i feel these feelings strong that she would be able to help me be calm and ok

thanks everyone for your support i am for sure going to be putting a lot of thought into this. something has to change i just wish i felt she could be helpfull right now

[rainbow8]

((((((granite))))))

You've gotten some excellent replies and advice already. I'm trying to think what more I can say. I know I asked once before, but I forgot what you said. They give kids with selective mutism (I'm not saying that's what you have but it could be) medicine like prozac (maybe something newer now) and it works! I know treating adults like you is different from kids but that's one suggestion. What about making a recording for your T? I know you don't want her to hear it, but at least then you wouldn't be talking to her directly but it wouldn't be writing either.

Has your H ever gone to therapy with you? You talk to him, so maybe your T can talk to him and he could talk to you, as a way of getting started? Maybe having him there would be a comfort for you? That's probably a bad idea, but I'm just brainstorming here to see if there are any new ideas for you.

I think playing a game together is a good idea, too. Any kind of paper and pencil game, or board game. When I wasn't talking, I still played games with those I didn't speak with. I was once co-leader of a children's program, and one little girl didn't speak. She loved to play the circle games, though. Again, I'm not comparing you to a child, but wonder if you would be comfortable playing a game with T? You don't have to talk much, but when you move the pieces around, conversation just happens. The same with the art. When I made my collage during therapy, I really got "into" it and it relaxed me.

Speaking of relaxing, my T does slow breathing with me in the beginning of the session, just for a few minutes, and it calms me down. Can you do that?

For me, I didn't start talking to the people whom I didn't previously speak to until I was really embarrassed and self-conscious about it. It was less painful to talk than to keep silent. Do you think that time is coming for you? You could just talk about ordinary things, not feelings.

I can understand both you and your Ts frustration. You both have the same goal, but you're both kind of stuck. I wonder if your T has talked to anyone to get ideas on how to help you talk.

I don't think your T is giving up, but she just doesn't know what else to do. I wonder if she and you could have a consultation with another T. Even if you wouldn't talk, maybe the other T would have some ideas that might work for you.

I hope you find a way, granite. Don't give up!!!!!

[granite1]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

((((((granite))))))
For me, I didn't start talking to the people whom I didn't previously speak to until I was really embarrassed and self-conscious about it. It was less painful to talk than to keep silent. Do you think that time is coming for you? You could just talk about ordinary things, not feelings.

I hope you find a way, granite. Don't give up!!!!!

i think this may be exactally the place i am in and it is so frightning for me.but like kacey2 said kind of making it ok within and make a resolution to do what it takes to talk in therapy.but i'm so not good at it i'm also so scared to look like a fool be unbelieved.left to deal with horrable feelings i cant deal with.the overwelming anger and fear.but i need to do something.
medication is not an option and i believe she knows this .las T tried to put me on meds and i left never to go back

[Kacey2]

Granite,
I just thought of one more thing. I was in your spot a while ago and I gave my t the analogy that I felt I was on the edge of the diving board in the deep end of the pool and I was supposed to jump in. I am terrified, I can't swim, I don't like the height of the diving board and how it bounces around and sways under my feet. I can't go back because everyone is waiting for me to get off the diving board for their turn and I am frozen. I can not jump.

This is what my t came back and said. Would you just take my hand as your swim coach and walk back off the diving board to the edge of the pool with me? I want you to start over in the shallow end where it is much safer for you to be.

Basically telling me that we can not start with the big stuff. We can not dive into talking about huge things. We need to build our swimming/therapy skills up before he felt safe taking me into the deeper water.

Not that I went into therapy just an open book ready to get going. This was actually almost a year after I started therapy. I still wore my sunglasses every session. I could only really get into a topical/peripheral conversation with him. I didn't trust him but by this point I was too far in and I couldn't leave therapy either.

Fast forward now a few months. After over a year in t I had three suicide attempts. And have SI'd since I was an adolescent and had trich since I was a child. When I first started to talk about my recent (nearly accomplished) suicide attempt with t I didn't want to do it but he of course being a DBT therapist had to address those things. We literaly agreed to having a one minute converstion about one or the other. He would set a timer because that was all I could tolerate at the time. But it did work because little by little it exposed me to what I thought was really scary and totally uncomfortable. Having that time limit lowered my anxiety about it because I knew that t did not have much time to make me squirm.
After that I learned that it wasn't always so bad and we would adjust the time up a minute or two if I could tolerate it.

So maybe my little granite girl you could tell a similar story to your t, one that pertains to you and how you are feeling and she could come back with her own chapter of what she is seeing. Or you could negotiate times like I did. T asked to talk about su attempt for 5 min and I said no 1 minute and he said ok I will take the one. You could pick a topic (a gentle topic not a huge trauma) and tell t that you brought a timer and maybe you could talk about it for "x" amount of minutes and see how it goes.

[granite1]

Originally Posted by Kacey2

Granite,
I just thought of one more thing. I was in your spot a while ago and I gave my t the analogy that I felt I was on the edge of the diving board in the deep end of the pool and I was supposed to jump in. I am terrified, I can't swim, I don't like the height of the diving board and how it bounces around and sways under my feet. I can't go back because everyone is waiting for me to get off the diving board for their turn and I am frozen. I can not jump.

WOW again what amazing words and unbelieveable insight.i can so feel the terror you must have been feeling then and it is the same here when i walk through my T's door.but i'm affraid she wouldnt tell me to come over to the shalow end or anything i'm scared she would just sit and watch wondering what i will do.but a big part of me wants to try so bad to talk to her.this weeks project is to try and convince myself if i do try monday and on it isnt the worst if she hates me or doesnt want to work with me.

[Omers]

My ADHD is kicking in so bear with me if I am "out of it".

I worked with a T for 3 years. Hardly talked at all the first year then started talking more and more... But... even then it was just social chit chat because the silence had been too uncomfortable. She and I have been close friends now for 15 years. I can talk to her about anything over a cup of tea... If I would walk back into her office tomorrow I would still cower in the corner of her chair unable to speak. A few months ago we had a conversation about our work together. With tears in her eyes she told me how helpless she had felt, how much she cared and wanted me to feel safe, how sad she was that she was never able to create a safe place for me and how frustrated she was... with herself for not being able to help me feel safe.
I had to change therapists to get out of that rut with her. I was able to leave much of the terror and scaredness about therapy with her and be more open with my next T. But... I needed someplace "safe" to leave all that silence and fear and I left it with her.

It sounds like maybe things changed after you gave her the letter. Giving her the letter was a huge show of trust. Maybe she knows now that you can do it in your own time and space and is just trying to give you the space to do it.

I remember being on the front yard of my grandmothers house watching my cousin Pat one day. My aunts were talking some distance away up the hill. There was a lot of concern in our family because Pat has stopped crawling but had not learned to walk and didn't seem to be trying. He called out to his mom several times but she was on top of the hill and couldn't hear him. Finally he got so frustrated about the whole thing that he just stood up and walked over to her! Pat never walked holding your fingers like a lot of babies or walked a step and plopped back down... When the time was right Pat got up on the uneven ground, set his eyes on the target and walked strong and steady several feet up the hill. just a thought.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by granite1

i'm also so scared to look like a fool

be unbelieved.

left to deal with horrable feelings i cant deal with.the overwelming anger and fear.

These ^ are the reasons you aren't talking granite. Very good insight! Do you think that you can share these with your T?

[suzzie]

((( granite ))) sannahs suggestion is a good one. this was actually my homework from t last session. to write a list of the things that prevent me from talking in session.