[REEG]

So it was a really intense session. I talked about how my behvaior seemed to bring out bundary crossing in professionals and gave examples from the past. While my T at first protested syaing that they were in charge of their behavior she did listen when I let her know that I still wanted to look at my part in it.
And then I talked about my concerns with going over time the last two sessions and my increasing phone calls. She let me know that she saw the calling as healthy. reaching out. But she took responsibility for going over time and said that it was a problem she has always had and was in no way limited to me. Then we went over again- so she made an offer that she would charge for another session. And I immediately felt so much relief.
Isn't therapy just a strange setup??

[rainbow_rose]

Originally Posted by REEG

Isn't therapy just a strange setup??

Yes. It definitely is.

(((((((REEG))))))))

One of my biggest fears is that *I* make people cross boundaries. Your post makes so much sense to me.

AND it doesn't really feel fair that she's charging you for an extra session because *she* ran over. I totally get why it would give you relief...it totally takes away the question of boundaries...T "gave" you extra time and you paid for it.

But I think BOTH people in a relationship are responsible for the boundaries. If she broke the "boundary" of ending session on time, you shouldn't have to pay for it. It feels like she's rescuing you from feeling uncomfortable, but not in a way that's fair.

I think boundaries are super tricky to learn and understand when they've been broken frequently in the past. I know that they have been for me. I just worry that T is giving you a message...you *are* responsible for this boundary...that isn't true.

[REEG]

Tree, that's an interesting idea. We also discussed what her red flags are that she is overinvesting. She talked about thinking of clients all the time and said this happened when she was working with kids (she dosent anymore). And this had not happened with me.
It got stranger- I had a day where it felt like everyting was piling up, so - called T's ofc. The secretary said I was on the schedule @ 9 am, so I let her know to call T, I'd be there but late. I didn't remember making an appt, not a time I usually would have, very odd. When I got there the door was locked, no T. I called the ofc again. A few min later T called and explained that because of the charge, another time had to be in the system to bill. We talked for a few minutes and it helped. She was full until my next appt, but put me on a cancellation list. She said that if I took away else, to remember that I did the right thing by calling. Such a mix of emotions!

[unaluna]

I hope she doesn't get audited, charging for an hour when she isn't even there. Maybe this is a common practice, I don't know. Now I appreciate why my T's always hold to a strict time schedule, it's a slippery slope.

[dizgirl2011]

When my session goes over time (usually by about 5 minutes) my therapist always says "i'm sorry i've kept you over time"... I remember once saying to her "why are you apologising? It was me who kept you overtime?" and she said "no it's my responsibility to keep an eye on the time, so i'm sorry".

I still find it weird because she's apologising for giving me something i want anyway- more time lol!

Can I ask if you went over time by very long? As it seems a little much to charge for an extra session, unless you went over time by the length of time of another session??

x

Originally Posted by hankster

I hope she doesn't get audited, charging for an hour when she isn't even there. Maybe this is a common practice, I don't know. Now I appreciate why my T's always hold to a strict time schedule, it's a slippery slope.

It's probably just the way the bookkeeping program works -- a flaw in the program that they have to work around.

I don't think it is quite kosher for her to charge you for her mistake, but I guess she was just trying to make you feel more comfortable with the situation. But really, she could have accomplished that by talking to you rather than by charging you. Now, if the sessions were going over by an inordinate amount of time, she would probably be within her rights to inform you that she will have to charge extra for that time, but it doesn't sound like it was great lengths of time.

[REEG]

Some more background may give some context. I have been with this T for three years. Boundaries have been a constant topic of discusion. My last therapist I was with for 17 years, and now I see that while she meant well, sometimes how she handled things did not serve to move me forward- extra sessions late night or on a weekend, holding me while I cried, etc.. At 19 I also had a 'friend' who is a PDOC, I stayed at his home and he managed my meds, this was my first adult sexual experience.

I should say that in most other ways T has very clear boundaries- unlike other T I don't have her cell or home phone can only contact her through the secretary or by leaving a message on an office line. We have discussed the going over intensely for a while, it was an issue and then I became more comfortable with the fluidity of it. This time of year is typically very hard for me, but this year has been much less drama and crisis. So for the last two sessions, each were over by about 20 min.
I'm glad to get the extra support, and very pleased that although things have been hard, it didn't need to get to a crisis to get a bit etxra.

The charge doesn't effect me much directly, I have good insurance that I won't have for much longer, due to a job change. T knows this.

I'm sure it's informed by my past experiences, but knowing that the charge was made helps me feel less vulnerable, less like I owe her something. I wonder if others feel this kind of safety knowing T is a 'paid support' too?

Now, the hard part left is talking about where my head was at when I was sure that the appt was made and I just had forgotten... but I know it's probably best to address it. Ulp.

[unaluna]

Paid support = control? Was there CSA? Altho in my book, the events at 19 with the pdoc practically qualify as CSA, no offense. Your insistence that you somehow elicit the boundary violations from your T's sounds like you are trying to say you also had responsibility for actions against you as a child? And now you keep acting that out, perhaps with slightly unscrupulous or unaware or simply not good enough T's? I don't know. I still think there are rules about ghost appointments, how long an appointment they charge for, etc. How do you "forget" you made an appointment that she doesn't show up for?

[TayQuincy]

I don't think it's right for her to charge for another session because she went over. In fact, I believe it is fraud to bill your insurance company for a visit that didn't actually happen. Her going overtime is not in any way your responsibility. I am surprised your T would allow you to accept any responsibility for that.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by treehouse

AND it doesn't really feel fair that she's charging you for an extra session because *she* ran over.

I agree. It is the therapist's responsibility to manage the time and it seems unfair that she charged you for her "error." If you very strongly want sessions to not go over, maybe you can suggest using an alarm clock if T keeps forgetting the time. I don't think it is right to charge you for a full additional session because she allowed the session to go over. Plus, she only went over by 20 minutes, so if there is going to be an agreed upon extra charge (and the agreement should occur before the session), then it should be prorated, not the full charge. I don't like how your T handled this. Even if it did bring you comfort, that doesn't make it the best solution.

Hope your T can step up and take responsibility for going over. Neither insurance nor you should have to foot the bill for her lack of timekeeping ability.

My T has told me that sometimes a therapist has to "protect" a client from themselves. I think it is up to your T to protect you from having these additional charges. You are generous and didn't want your T's time to be uncompensated and you wanted to make the boundaries strong--all very admirable. But this action hurts you by making you accrue extra charges that you shouldn't have. T's role is to protect you from your wanting to pay more. She can do this by firmly turning down your offer of extra compensation, telling you it is her role not yours to keep the time, and assuring you that she will watch the clock more closely from now on.

Originally Posted by sunrise

If you very strongly want sessions to not go over, maybe you can suggest using an alarm clock if T keeps forgetting the time.

Just a practical note about this...my T is horrible about keeping time. Every year or so, he'll announce that he's going to do better with his timekeeping, and sessions are going to end on time. He says it's a problem he has in general, not just with me. It's not a huge amount of time, but sessions tend to be 60 minutes instead of 50, or 90 instead of 80.

I am super super super sensitive about boundaries, and I freak out a little inside every time T brings this up. I feel like I'm "stealing" time, like I'm "making" T break his boundaries, all sorts of things.

Now *I* keep an eye on the clock. It's not ideal, but it works for me right now. About 48 minutes into session, *I* kind of finish up. I know it's not my job...AND I'm okay with it. I know T isn't perfect, I know boundaries are huge for me, and I know that it helps me when I do that.

We do run over sometimes (we did yesterday, because there was no way I could be aware of time), but it's okay. T has certainly never ever EVER implied that it's my fault that we run over, or that I'm in any way responsible for keeping time.

Anyhow, (((((REEG))))), I wonder if it would help you feel more comfortable if you kept an eye on the clock yourself?

[REEG]

Wow people have some really strong feelings on this. You all really had me examining different angles. In the the end , I think Tree's response comes closest.
Traditonally T often runs on the 60 or more plan. She's acknowledged that's her issue- the last two ran over 20 min each. Total that equals 40 min She offered the extra payment and to me it seems equitable - I more than use extra time regularly. She's also given me a finanical break in the past when my situation was different. Things are not always as cut and dried with billing as one might expect.

T also acknowledged this is her style and that running over has theraputic implications.

Often I am the one to watch the time and that is okay with me. Due to the intensity of the content that got lost and I was feeling uncomfortable so we talked about it.

I do think the client has responsibility for timing as does the therapist.
We have spent a great deal of time talking about boundaries and trust- I bring things up regularly and feel that this has beene helpful

I'm confused how looking at my behavior as an adult leads to me taking responsibility for abuse that happened as a child- that feels like a logical leap! I see it more as I know the past puts me at risk for situations where boundaries may be crossed and it is good to aware of this.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by REEG

I'm confused how looking at my behavior as an adult leads to me taking responsibility for abuse that happened as a child- that feels like a logical leap! I see it more as I know the past puts me at risk for situations where boundaries may be crossed and it is good to aware of this.

Why does no one understand me?! (Yes, I WOULD like some cheese with this whine!) I didn't say that, more like the opposite. That the way you justified what happened to you (as a child? I'm sorry, I don't know your past, and can't find it on the mobile view), is by saying it was your fault somehow, and now it's again your fault somehow that T's can't hold their boundaries. I'm saying it's NOT your fault, in both cases. So if you are saying you may be acting out and "making" T's do these things, yes, you have a responsibility for doing things differently as you become aware. But it doesn't excuse them. And I AM speaking more about my experience, replacing your boundaries with my... not being understood, I guess (rueful). Except for the logical leap thing, I think we are not much in disagreement.

[REEG]

Hankster, it's okay. I think that this just touched some very strong feelings for many. I know everyone was sharing opinions as a way to help. Its hard to catch subtleties online sometimes