[skysblue]

Well, I have to decide by tomorrow. You see, I had told T I would never call her again but last week I made 2 phone calls and left messages. And she replied to both even though I only requested she reply to one.

So, I'm thinking I should pay her for receiving those calls and for replying to me. She's never charged me extra for phone calls before but I now know how valuable they are and do not want to take advantage. I know their value because of how much she charged me while I was on vacation.

Do you think adding $10.00 to my payment is sufficient or should I pay more than that? They were not long messages - hers only a few seconds and mine, maybe a minute or so.

I wouldn't pay her extra unless she asks for it.

[vaffla]

Me neither.

[rainbow8]

I don't understand your need to pay your T extra for phone calls but I know you haven't resolved the issue from your trip. It's incredible to think that a T would charge for a minute message!! I remember one of my Ts saying that after 15 minutes she would need to charge me, but I've talked to other Ts for half an hour and never, ever got charged. Basically, the cutoff is 15 minutes though. That's considered part of the therapeutic agreement for most Ts, and certainly not something you need to pay for.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Do you think adding $10.00 to my payment is sufficient or should I pay more than that? They were not long messages - hers only a few seconds and mine, maybe a minute or so.

I think you should ask her if there is a charge and what it is so there is no confusion or problems surrounding this, like last time. Also, it would be better if you know the fees in advance so you aren't asking her after the fact. Have it be an agreed upon rate. (Ideally, this should be in your informed consent.) My daughter's T, for example, charges for phone calls longer than 10 minutes, by the minute. I have not heard that a 15 minute cut-off is standard, as Rainbow said. My daughter's T is the first one in my limited experience who had the policy of charging after a set time. Neither my current T, my former family T, nor my PNP charges for phone calls. (Without an agreed-upon rate, I trust that if the call is getting too long for what they are willing to provide, that they will gracefully extricate themselves.)

I agree with sunrise that you should ask her. Tell her how you're feeling about it (confused?). It's a valid question and then she can clarify her policy on this.

[rainbow8]

ooh, that bunny is so, so adorable!

I also think you should ask her first, and should find out exactly what she charges for or not, and exactly how much. It shouldn't be up to you to decide the cost, but her. Sorry I didn't think of that until sunrise brought it up. About the 15 minute cutoff. I didn't say it was standard, or I guess I shouldn't have worded it as though I did. I think 2 of my Ts told me that after 15 minutes they would have to charge me, so I assumed maybe that was a usual time allowed.

[Sannah]

You don't want anyone doing you any favors do you?

[Wren_]

I think you really need to work this out with her; don't add or offer anything instead talk to her about this so the two of you can come to some kind of mutual agreement which leaves you knowing what is and isn't expected in cases like this. It all sounds like the payment issue and the phone boundary one is really pulling at you still Sky

[crazycanbegood]

Ugh! Don't you dare pay her! Sorry! If she asks, pay her AND bring up the $200. I second Sannah's question, and I am going to put it as a statement. It seems as if you're afraid of getting in your T's way and her hating you. Your T will state when you have pushed the boundaries, as you have seen. If she didn't want to reply to the calls, she would not have. If she wants payment, she will ask. It's okay to call a T occasionally; that's part of the job, unless otherwise stated. You said you would never call her out of hurt in response to her putting limits to your contact, not because she forbade it right?

Sorry if my post comes off as frank but I am still riled up by the $200.

Reread what Sannah wrote, Skyblue. I think she's hit on something for you. Then go in and ask you therapist what her policy is on phone calls. It's fine to admit that you're unclear and need a bit of clarification for the future. And you don't even need to discuss the amount you paid while you were on vacation because I get how hard that would be. . . . But if you were so inclined you really could air that bit of smelly laundry because I think it's stinking up the therapy room for you just a wee bit or perhaps not. Then you might want to spend some time on the issue that Sannah brought up. It's all related me thinks! Good luck with whatever you decide.

[granite1]

i guess somehow i missed what went on with phonecalls when you were on vacation but it seems to really be bothering you..i know it is hard for you to talk to your T about things she may have done that bother you.i know it would be for me because i am afraid of what she would do and also on a more personal level i seem to need her to be perfect in my mind because i couldnt handle it if she made even a small misteak.
it is a risky thing i knowbut maybe asking her to clear up any confusion about phone policies will lead to a talk about what went on over your vacation

[skysblue]

Like Hankster wrote before she deleted her post, 'it's SO NOT about the money'. I will not add extra cash today because it would be a 'statement' not a gesture of good will.

CCBG - you know, I'm on the verge of talking to her about the vacation charge. As you know already I think my T deserves a lot more than what I pay her. She is awesome and she is always there for me. But, I'm realizing that the $200.00 also wasn't about the money. Her charge just confirmed in my mind was a pain in the butt I am. And so it's all about self-worth. And that's how I'll present it to T today if I gather up the courage. She has to know about all of my concerns or they'll continue to be an impediment.

To all of you who thought I was really talking about the money, I apologize. I thought I was but in fact I wasn't. T has never ever charged me for the few phone messages I leave her. As a matter of fact, I have a voice message from her that tells me that she enjoys getting my calls and to call as often as I like.

Sky, I agree with you, none of what you're talking about is really about money. It's about self-worth and what you are entitled to as a human being--which in case you're aren't sure of--you are worth love, gentle care and deep compassion. But I think you keep equating money with your worth. In other words, if you pay your therapist "enough", she won't be angry, frustrated or upset with you because the only way she can bear to be with you is if you pay her enough money to allow her to put up with you. I do get that thinking. I think a lot of us on this board believe that deep down inside, but it is distorted thinking. Sure your therapist is entitled to pay for her professional services, but it's HER job to take care of that side of the relationship. I'm glad to hear that you're going to talk to her about the vacation phone calls. Some of your angst around phone calls can be cleared up with you and your therapist clarifying exactly what she charges for phone calls.

You said very clearly that phone calls are an important part of your treatment and if you're not clear on her policy, then every time you need to make a call it will spin you into this angst. Clarification of boundaries are critical, especially if they keep coming up for the client, but we also have to realize that we won't always get a set policy. I know that emailing my therapist is very very critical in my own therapy. In the beginning, I did the same thing you did, questioned how much of a bother I was being and if I needed to pay more. My therapist and I talked about it a lot and she kept reassuring me that we would "talk" if she was feeling overwhelmed. She told me that she felt my emails were helping her understand me and that they were a release and connection piece for me. I wanted her to give me a number of how many emails were too much. Like you, I didn't want to go over that number and hear her tell me that I was "too much for her" and to stop doing it! But over time I learned that I wasn't going to get a magic number from her. I needed to learn that hearing about a person's boundaries ahead of time isn't always possible. Boundaries do change or ebb and flow over the course of a relationship. I had to learn that I couldn't get the Rule Book ahead of time, page through it, memorize it and then expect that the relationship would go exactly as stated in the Rule Book. . . .wish it would, but that's not life. I'm figuring out that I need to work on my distorted thinking that when someone says something regarding my behavior is an immediate rejection or indication that they don't want to be around me any more or that I've become too much for them. Sorry if none of this resonates for you, and good luck on discussing the phone calls and feelings around them with your therapist!

[Wren_]

As a matter of fact, I have a voice message from her that tells me that she enjoys getting my calls and to call as often as I like.

which definitely isn't saying she thinks you are a pain

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

Sky, I agree with you, none of what you're talking about is really about money. It's about self-worth and what you are entitled to as a human being--which in case you're aren't sure of--you are worth love, gentle care and deep compassion. But I think you keep equating money with your worth. In other words, if you pay your therapist "enough", she won't be angry, frustrated or upset with you because the only way she can bear to be with you is if you pay her enough money to allow her to put up with you. I do get that thinking. I think a lot of us on this board believe that deep down inside, but it is distorted thinking. Sure your therapist is entitled to pay for her professional services, but it's HER job to take care of that side of the relationship. I'm glad to hear that you're going to talk to her about the vacation phone calls. Some of your angst around phone calls can be cleared up with you and your therapist clarifying exactly what she charges for phone calls.

You said very clearly that phone calls are an important part of your treatment and if you're not clear on her policy, then every time you need to make a call it will spin you into this angst. Clarification of boundaries are critical, especially if they keep coming up for the client, but we also have to realize that we won't always get a set policy. I know that emailing my therapist is very very critical in my own therapy. In the beginning, I did the same thing you did, questioned how much of a bother I was being and if I needed to pay more. My therapist and I talked about it a lot and she kept reassuring me that we would "talk" if she was feeling overwhelmed. She told me that she felt my emails were helping her understand me and that they were a release and connection piece for me. I wanted her to give me a number of how many emails were too much. Like you, I didn't want to go over that number and hear her tell me that I was "too much for her" and to stop doing it! But over time I learned that I wasn't going to get a magic number from her. I needed to learn that hearing about a person's boundaries ahead of time isn't always possible. Boundaries do change or ebb and flow over the course of a relationship. I had to learn that I couldn't get the Rule Book ahead of time, page through it, memorize it and then expect that the relationship would go exactly as stated in the Rule Book. . . .wish it would, but that's not life. I'm figuring out that I need to work on my distorted thinking that when someone says something regarding my behavior is an immediate rejection or indication that they don't want to be around me any more or that I've become too much for them. Sorry if none of this resonates for you, and good luck on discussing the phone calls and feelings around them with your therapist!

Actually, everything you've written resonates with me. Dang, but I want a Rule Book!! But nothing in life can be so safe that we won't face challenges so it's unrealistic and unhelpful to expect it to be different with T.

[SoupDragon]

I am beginning to think, that therapy is not about our relationship with our T, but at the same time it is totally about our relationship with our T.

I am thinking that when we are faced with dilemma's connected with the T experience, they may be reflecting something deeper in us which affects our functioning in certain areas of our life.

So maybe your dilemma is not about the money, nor yout T, but something else??? However as an example of this thing coming up with your T, it seems valid to work through it with T. On a practical level - boundaries / rules on when an additional charge needs to be made, on a deeper level maybe this is reflecting something else, a value, attitude??? A should?? A must???

Let us know how it goes. SD

[unaluna]

A rulebook? Baseball or religion? An umpire to make decisions for you, or a priest?

[SoupDragon]

Originally Posted by hankster

A rulebook? Baseball or religion? An umpire to make decisions for you, or a priest?

well at least I hope it was

[unaluna]

I WAS GOING FOR THOUGHT-PROVOKING, but I'll settle for funny...

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by SoupDragon

I am beginning to think, that therapy is not about our relationship with our T, but at the same time it is totally about our relationship with our T.

I am thinking that when we are faced with dilemma's connected with the T experience, they may be reflecting something deeper in us which affects our functioning in certain areas of our life.

So maybe your dilemma is not about the money, nor yout T, but something else??? However as an example of this thing coming up with your T, it seems valid to work through it with T. On a practical level - boundaries / rules on when an additional charge needs to be made, on a deeper level maybe this is reflecting something else, a value, attitude??? A should?? A must???

Let us know how it goes. SD

Oh yes, I think you're right. As the unconscious begins to bubble up, it plays out with T - because that's where we're beginning to allow the defenses down. So, you're right - it has nothing to do with money and nothing to do with T. I have told her previously that I know I'm engaging in projection - my challenge is how to take that knowledge and influence my emotions towards a more positive place.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by hankster

A rulebook? Baseball or religion? An umpire to make decisions for you, or a priest?

Well, I guess I really would hate a rule book. I can see me chafing at those rules leading a rebellion to overturn them.

I need to alter my vision of how to face tough stuff. I guess I've wanted life to kinda be like floating on a comfortable raft on a calm sea - relaxing and enjoyable.

But, if I envision instead that life is like surfing then I can accept that the waves of life keep changing and my job is to know that and to learn to keep my balance. Even if I have a total wipeout on occasion does not mean that I can't get back up and enjoy riding the surf again. And, who wouldn't rather have the fun and life-enhancing activity (surfing/facing troubles head-on) rather than the boring and sedate (calm raft/avoidance).

So, intrepid I vow to become. (somehow or another)

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by skysblue

my challenge is how to take that knowledge and influence my emotions towards a more positive place.

Or take that knowledge and understand it and let your feelings come out. It is okay to have feelings that aren't positive. You are still worthy and loveable either way.

Originally Posted by Jaybird57

But over time I learned that I wasn't going to get a magic number from her. I needed to learn that hearing about a person's boundaries ahead of time isn't always possible. Boundaries do change or ebb and flow over the course of a relationship. I had to learn that I couldn't get the Rule Book ahead of time, page through it, memorize it and then expect that the relationship would go exactly as stated in the Rule Book. . . .wish it would, but that's not life. I'm figuring out that I need to work on my distorted thinking that when someone says something regarding my behavior is an immediate rejection or indication that they don't want to be around me any more or that I've become too much for them.

Wow Jay, loved your post! What you wrote above seems to be an attempt to control don't you think? (A person who does this would want control not that you are being controlling!) And when we want to control relationships we are guarding against getting hurt? I also really like what you wrote about comments about our behavior. I have been there and done that. I had to learn that comments about me are not negative. I would take any comment and turn it into a negative, I guess because I had low self worth. I have worked on this a ton and I'm much better now.

Sky, you are a quick study!

[SoupDragon]

Originally Posted by hankster

I WAS GOING FOR THOUGHT-PROVOKING, but I'll settle for funny...

Yes thought provoking is what I meant

Originally Posted by Sannah

A person who does this would want control not that you are being controlling!) And when we want to control relationships we are guarding against getting hurt?

Yep, that's me Sannah. I grew up thinking if I could anticipate everyone's next move (ie. control things), then I'd be able to know exactly what was going to happen next and avoid any hurt, emotional and/or physical. Children think this way and personally, I never grew up. In regard to intimate relationships, I'm a child in thought and deed. . . although I do believe that I'm beginning to grow up (even if it's a little later than most!).
Jay<--who has spent the majority of her adult life looking for the stupid rule book that everyone else seemed to have and I somehow missed out on. Now I realize that no one else has one either, but some people just grew up understanding the rules or were okay swimming with the flow

PS Which reminds me! I loved your comment about surfing the wave, Sky because that is what it's all about. I'm trying to recognize that when I feel the "fall" coming that it's okay to lean into it, fall, swim a bit until my head is above water and then climbing back onto my surf board for another run at the wave.