[Ygrec23]

Yes, I'm on Medicare and Social Security. So's my wife. That tells you how old we are. But I'm still in therapy. Couldn't afford it before. Age places some restrictions on what you can do in therapy. You can't aim to totally reshape your personality. But I think there's lots you can do, and my T agrees. She and I work together well, and I'm encouraged by our progress.

You other seniors out there who are PC members and patients in therapy, what do you think about the limitations placed on therapy for seniors? I very much wonder to what extent those limitations are real and to what extent they're personally created by us from our depressive thoughts and feelings or our anxiety about death or illness.

At this stage of life, for me at least, therapy is the last bastion of "making progress." I've always had to feel I was "making progress" somehow, somewhere, in order to feel alive and not get depressed. And I'm relying on therapy to do that now, since it doesn't look like I'm going to "make progress" in any other area of life. Do you think that's a justified conclusion or not? I'd sure love to be wrong.

What are your thoughts about therapy and old age?

[laceylu]

First time I did T I was a kid. I learned differently and the focus was my behavior. This time I am 40 years old and it is a whole new experience. I am not sure of my focus now except not to feel crazy all the time. Things have changed for the better due to the internet and changes in practice due to good research. So when I am a senior I bet it will be even better because I sure things will get even better. Therapy can be a beautiful experience so age does not seem to make a difference to me. My T is seasoned and I like to have the connection with an older person since I do not have that in my life. Making connections are what matters-age has little to do with it. My T has to deal with little me a lot so my physical age has little to do with therapy at times. Elderly are common at the clinic I go to. Take care, get better, enjoy T, and touch the ocean for me.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

what do you think about the limitations placed on therapy for seniors? I very much wonder to what extent those limitations are real and to what extent they're personally created by us from our depressive thoughts and feelings or our anxiety about death or illness.

I am very interested in your question. Can you say more about what the limitations are? You mentioned that not being able to reshape the personality completely was one. Do you think this is because there is not enough time left in one's life to do that? Or because one is too set in one's ways because of greater number of years spent being that way? What are some other limitations? And who is placing those limitations on seniors? Is it the seniors themselves, their therapists, their health insurance?

My mom is 87 and has been going to see a psychiatrist for over a year. She sometimes tells me some of the things they talk about. I can tell it is a positive experience for her. She likes someone to listen to her, to take her seriously, to engage with her at a certain intellectual level (she is very smart and the assumption is often made in society that a person her age is not very intelligent or is childish). I also think it helps a little with loneliness. (I think it is also a bonus that her pdoc is a man since at her age, so many of her male acquaintenances have died and her friends are all female.) She likes to hear about her pdoc's life and to connect with him. I wish she had a therapist for these things instead of a pdoc, as the pdoc also prescribes meds, and I am not really sure she needs meds. My dad died recently, and I like the things the pdoc said to my mom about that. He seemed very accepting of her grieving process and didn't make her feel like she was going crazy. (She has conversations with my father, but they are not delusions--she knows he is not there.)

I think what I mentioned about there being an assumption in society that "old people" are not intellectually capable may be one limitation on therapy for seniors. Perhaps insight oriented therapy is not offered so readily to seniors as it is assumed the older client is not cognitively capable of it.

I think another limitation is that her generation is very practical and frugal (children of the Great Depression, young adults who sacrificed much during WWII) and there may be a stumbling block in thinking that therapy is "worth it". Are there tangible benefits to therapy? Is therapy a sign of weakness or does it indicate a lack of perseverance and self sufficiency? I think these questions might be important to people like my mom and dad.

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

But I think there's lots you can do, and my T agrees. She and I work together well, and I'm encouraged by our progress.

I agree with you on that. I hope you see continued progress in therapy.

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

I've always had to feel I was "making progress" somehow, somewhere, in order to feel alive and not get depressed. And I'm relying on therapy to do that now, since it doesn't look like I'm going to "make progress" in any other area of life.

Are you sure you can't make progress in any other area of your life? I have found that progress I make in therapy sometimes gets transferred to real life so it really is progress in both domains.

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Do you think that's a justified conclusion or not? I'd sure love to be wrong.

I don't know the answer, but I hope you can get over feeling it would be wrong if that were the case. Sounds like some judgment about yourself creeping in there. Why would it not be a good thing to make progress in therapy? Sounds like a smart thing that you have found this way to make progress and add more meaning to your life. Many of us who are depressed benefit from therapy, so if therapy is helping to keep you from being depressed, that is good, isn't it?

Hi - I'm definitely in your age range, and I have a few opinions on this.

You can't aim to totally reshape your personality.

This may be true, but it IS possible to work on bringing out your "real" personality. This is what I am doing right now. I've never been who I really am, but a series of events brought out that person temporarily. I'm now working with a T to integrate all aspects of myself into a whole person. It's very exciting actually.

You other seniors out there who are PC members and patients in therapy, what do you think about the limitations placed on therapy for seniors? I very much wonder to what extent those limitations are real and to what extent they're personally created by us from our depressive thoughts and feelings or our anxiety about death or illness.

What limitations??? As far as I'm concerned, there are no limitations. I know I could drop dead at any time, or develop a serious illness, but in the meantime I've got stuff to do! I'm active, exercise, work full time - I'm not done with life, dammit! I believe self-improvement is a life-long activity. None of us is perfect - we can always be better - and therapy is definitely helping me to improve myself. Just because I spent umpty-ump years not being who I really am, doesn't mean I can't finally achieve that and really be myself.

I think so much of aging is a mindset. Sure, I'm self-conscious about being in therapy this late in the game. But I'm not happy with myself and I've got work to do, and luckily enough I found a great T who is only a few years younger than I am and is very interested in ideas about living long and well. So he's very supportive.

And now that sunrise has mentioned someone in therapy at 87, I feel so much better. It's never too late.

Good question, Ygrec23. I'll be thinking about this some more, and interested in hearing what others have to say.

[skysblue]

uh, what's age got to do with it? All of us are living breathing human beings with minds that think and experience emotions. Does that change when you reach a certain age? Help me understand what limitations you're talking about.

[ECHOES]

Ygrec, I also sometimes wonder about being in therapy at age 58. It is different from a young person who has their whole life ahead of them, with choices to make about education, career, marriage.

I do want to know myself better, and I do like the relationship and the support, and it does help in my current job. It is hard to realize that most of my life is over. And it is hard to take in that therapy could have helped tremendously in making that life what I wanted it to be like, and would have helped me feel more comfortable with myself and others, would have helped me grow instead of .. well all my defenses, pick one.

But now having found the therapy that is helpful, I want to continue... because it feels good, because it makes other parts of my life feel better, because as long as I'm alive I want to continue to learn and grow.

[Ygrec23]

Dear sunrise,

What a great post! I really appreciate it. And as you'll see I will go through each and every one of your statements and questions to show you how seriously I take what you say.

I am very interested in your question. Can you say more about what the limitations are? You mentioned that not being able to reshape the personality completely was one. Do you think this is because there is not enough time left in one's life to do that? Or because one is too set in one's ways because of greater number of years spent being that way? What are some other limitations? And who is placing those limitations on seniors? Is it the seniors themselves, their therapists, their health insurance?

As for myself, I have to say that I've never thought in terms of limitations. My therapist told me that in her opinion we couldn't shoot for the kind of complete personality change that might have been possible (so she thinks) were I in my twenties or thirties. And the implication, to me, was very much that we didn't have enough time to do that. I have very deep attachment issues. My mother was not a good mother to myself or to my brothers. It was a personality issue on her part, a matter of her own deep problems. I was completely screwed up by the age of two. None of the attunement, intersubjectivity or symbiotic existence that's normal for people who've had a standard mothering experience.

My mom is 87 and has been going to see a psychiatrist for over a year. She sometimes tells me some of the things they talk about. I can tell it is a positive experience for her. She likes someone to listen to her, to take her seriously, to engage with her at a certain intellectual level (she is very smart and the assumption is often made in society that a person her age is not very intelligent or is childish). I also think it helps a little with loneliness. (I think it is also a bonus that her pdoc is a man since at her age, so many of her male acquaintenances have died and her friends are all female.) She likes to hear about her pdoc's life and to connect with him. I wish she had a therapist for these things instead of a pdoc, as the pdoc also prescribes meds, and I am not really sure she needs meds. My dad died recently, and I like the things the pdoc said to my mom about that. He seemed very accepting of her grieving process and didn't make her feel like she was going crazy. (She has conversations with my father, but they are not delusions--she knows he is not there.)

Frankly, I believe that therapy is positive and beneficial at any age. If one is open to that kind of experience. And there are many who aren't. My mother wasn't, and my father died too young. I would tend to think that being open to therapy is a kind of test for older people, as to whether or not they still remain mentally young and functional. If they do remain open to therapy, I believe that says something very positive about their mental state.

I think what I mentioned about there being an assumption in society that "old people" are not intellectually capable may be one limitation on therapy for seniors. Perhaps insight oriented therapy is not offered so readily to seniors as it is assumed the older client is not cognitively capable of it.

I agree with you. There are entirely erroneous assumptions about seniors. But I've met quite a number of therapists who are very much aware that you simply can't generalize about seniors. Some seniors retain all or almost all of their mental powers while others degenerate. I can tell you that my wife is still in very effective therapy at the same time as she's taking Namenda and Aricept as prescribed by her neurologist because he believes she is deteriorating with either Alzheimer's or another kind of dementia. So it would appear that even if you're on the way down, therapy may still do you good.

I think another limitation is that her generation is very practical and frugal (children of the Great Depression, young adults who sacrificed much during WWII) and there may be a stumbling block in thinking that therapy is "worth it". Are there tangible benefits to therapy? Is therapy a sign of weakness or does it indicate a lack of perseverance and self sufficiency? I think these questions might be important to people like my mom and dad.

Generations come and generations go. What is/was true of the WWII people may or may not be true of their successors. I'm in the middle. I would think that most people my age believe that therapy is a good thing, nothing embarassing, nothing to be ashamed about. The Great Depression/WWII people are dying off quickly. I think the majority of those who succeed them will have an entirely different view, a more accepting view, of therapy.

I agree with you on that. I hope you see continued progress in therapy. Are you sure you can't make progress in any other area of your life? I have found that progress I make in therapy sometimes gets transferred to real life so it really is progress in both domains.

Well, first of all, I do believe that therapy is "real life." I just don't see any difference between progress in one and progress in the other. As far as other progress is concerned, I'm no longer going to make financial progress. I'm no longer going to have children and add to my family. I'm not going to build a new house or start out on a "fantasy career" as a pilot or a fishing boat captain, or this or that. I would very much like to be able to write material for publication, and I do believe that's going to be quite a bit easier in the age of e-pubs than earlier (I do keep up with ALL the news about publication and distribution in our times). I don't know that I really CARE about progress other than in terms of self-understanding and writing.

I don't know the answer, but I hope you can get over feeling it would be wrong if that were the case. Sounds like some judgment about yourself creeping in there. Why would it not be a good thing to make progress in therapy? Sounds like a smart thing that you have found this way to make progress and add more meaning to your life. Many of us who are depressed benefit from therapy, so if therapy is helping to keep you from being depressed, that is good, isn't it?

Ummmm, perhaps there's some misundertanding here. It's a GREAT thing to make progress in therapy. Never said it wasn't. Earlier in life I was in therapy for a very long time without being able to make any progress at all because my T's at the time weren't able to deal with my personal form of separation from the world. Seriously. I started with orthodox Freudians and even after I graduated to more sophisticated therapists they were frightened (I felt) of my situation and disabilities. So, no progress. Then. NOW, there's progress, which is wonderful. T now is light years ahead of all T's in the past.

So, to sum it up, in my thinking therapy is ALWAYS a good thing to do, unless you're perfect. Regardless of age. And you're only barred from it by your prejudices. I want to keep moving and expanding until I die. Whatever it costs, whatever it takes. Yes, we're poor. Yes, we all have our limitations. Yes, we can't all indulge in the kind of fantasy hobbies or pastimes we may have dreamt of. Doesn't matter. If we can keep making progress in our minds, it just doesn't matter. And then let's die with our boots on! Take care.

[Ygrec23]

Ah, BunnyWithin! I love what you've said! And your screen name!

Hi - I'm definitely in your age range, and I have a few opinions on this. This may be true, but it IS possible to work on bringing out your "real" personality. This is what I am doing right now. I've never been who I really am, but a series of events brought out that person temporarily. I'm now working with a T to integrate all aspects of myself into a whole person. It's very exciting actually.

It's TERRIBLY exciting! I well understand!. I was in therapy for 25 years very long ago that didn't work at all. Combination of lack of professional development on the part of my T's and my own complete psychological rigidity. And now I can afford (through Medicare) a T who understands ENTIRELY what I have been going through.

What limitations??? As far as I'm concerned, there are no limitations. I know I could drop dead at any time, or develop a serious illness, but in the meantime I've got stuff to do! I'm active, exercise, work full time - I'm not done with life, dammit! I believe self-improvement is a life-long activity. None of us is perfect - we can always be better - and therapy is definitely helping me to improve myself. Just because I spent umpty-ump years not being who I really am, doesn't mean I can't finally achieve that and really be myself.

I (me, personally) don't think there are limitations. My T does think so, though. She tells me that we can't aim to reconstruct my personality in the way that would be possible if I were in my twenties or thirties. Whether that's a prejudice on her part or not I don't know. Since my pathology goes as far back as it does, I think she might be right. But I'm relying on her professional ability and insight. I did not have a decent (even half-assed) mother way back when, and doing something about that is what (I think) my T is talking about.

I think so much of aging is a mindset. Sure, I'm self-conscious about being in therapy this late in the game. But I'm not happy with myself and I've got work to do, and luckily enough I found a great T who is only a few years younger than I am and is very interested in ideas about living long and well. So he's very supportive.

Agree one hundred percent. Aging is a mindset. And it's not a mindset I'm willing to participate in. My T, like yours, is very supportive, but at the same time realistic, and that means something to me. I really don't want her to tell me whatever I want to hear. I want her real opinions. So it matters to me that she says I'm too old to change the entire basis of my personality. I can deal with that. That doesn't sound unreasonable to me. But I can still make substantial progress.

And now that sunrise has mentioned someone in therapy at 87, I feel so much better. It's never too late. Good question, Ygrec23. I'll be thinking about this some more, and interested in hearing what others have to say.

No, it's NEVER too late! Until our hearts cease to beat, until we regress into mental porridge, we can indeed keep going ahead. I believe that. You should too! Take care, BunnyWithin! I'm with you!

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by skysblue

uh, what's age got to do with it? All of us are living breathing human beings with minds that think and experience emotions. Does that change when you reach a certain age? Help me understand what limitations you're talking about.

Age has to do with it to the extent, first, that therapists think age has to do with it and, second, to the extent that our age may compromise our ability to make the kinds of changes in our minds that younger people are capable of.

As to the first matter, there really are therapists out there who are prejudiced about older people and their capacity to "do" therapy. You may not believe it, but such therapists do exist, following the examples of many other people in our society.

As to the second matter, depending on the age at which therapy is first approached, there is an issue regarding whether or not a particular individual has enough time left, before death, to make the kinds of changes in therapy that much younger people in their twenties or thirties could take in their stride.

For example, I'm sixty-six. A complete approach to my own problems would require a reconstruction of my personality dating back to age two or one. My therapist believes and has told me that such a reconstruction would take longer than my life expectancy. I can understand and appreciate that. But there are many other things we can and will do in therapy. A complete personality reconstruction is not the only thing we can aspire to.

Accordingly, the limitations about which you asked are limitations imposed only by life expectancy, not by mental capacity or intelligence or any other functional ability. Take care!

[Ygrec23]

Ygrec, I also sometimes wonder about being in therapy at age 58. It is different from a young person who has their whole life ahead of them, with choices to make about education, career, marriage. I do want to know myself better, and I do like the relationship and the support, and it does help in my current job. It is hard to realize that most of my life is over. And it is hard to take in that therapy could have helped tremendously in making that life what I wanted it to be like, and would have helped me feel more comfortable with myself and others, would have helped me grow instead of .. well all my defenses, pick one.

Dear Echoes,

Mmmmm. In my view, your life (our lives) are far from over. And I sincerely believe that therapy helps at any age whatsoever. And that knowing one's self better is important at any stage at all. You may think that you have, in some manner, lost out, been forgotten, wasted your life. I don't agree at all. I strongly feel that therapy for you (and for all of ourselves), even now, will help you (and us) to be the person/s you/we have always wanted to become.

But now having found the therapy that is helpful, I want to continue... because it feels good, because it makes other parts of my life feel better, because as long as I'm alive I want to continue to learn and grow.

You're on the right path. Keep on going. You will get where you want to go. As will we all if we keep trying seriously. Life and growth will not stop until our blood no longer circulates in our veins. It's up to us, no one else, to stay alive and functioning. Take care.

[unaluna]

Age 59: I just need help getting out of the tilty-back chair after the session is over.

[ECHOES]

I wish my T had one!

I sink so far into the couch I have to do a practice run/rocking forward before I can emerge...

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by hankster

Age 59: I just need help getting out of the tilty-back chair after the session is over.

Hey, it was my T who couldn't handle sitting on the floor anymore, not me. And she's probably at least 15 years younger than me.

hankster and ECHOES - ROTFLMAO!!! I hear you!!!

Ygrec23 - I agree about the impossibility of personality reconstruction. What happened to me was that the "real me", which I had never dared let out, just sort of popped out ... like a bunny Now I just need to learn to overcome my fears and become that person all the time. Not easy, but I keep slogging away. There are still aspects of my personality that are too ingrained to ever be changed, but I can live with that. My T is helping me to learn how to live with them, but not let them rule me.

I was in therapy over the years with 4 previous Ts, for a total of about 5 years. My second T was extremely helpful, but he moved away after about a year. The other 3 were not exactly a waste of time, but I didn't make any great progress - just got through a couple of rough spots. I don't know if my current T is just a perfect match for me, or maybe I'm really ready to make some changes now ... I don't know.

I love your attitude about self-improvement. I think at our age we appreciate life so much more, because we know time is running out. At 21, life is, like, forever. I just want to enjoy however much time I have left as much as I can. And I'm also looking for inner peace, and to be a whole person. Sounds like you are too. Good luck - onward and upward!!

[rainbow8]

Thank you for this thread, ygrec. It's very interesting as I'm a senior too! I've had a lot of therapy but nothing like the kind of therapy I'm doing with my current T. Sometimes I wish I were younger so I could have benefitted from it in the past, but I can't change the facts!

For me, the only limitation is that I worry I will die before I resolve my issues. Which of course is silly because I won't care then. What I LIKE about being older and in therapy is my willingness to be more honest than I've ever been in the past with other Ts. Some is due to my T and her orientation and personality, but some is due to my thinking that "it's now or never." I don't have time to fool around anymore. This is it! Risk now or it will be too late! I don't have much to lose, but have much to gain.

[Ygrec23]

Ygrec23 - I agree about the impossibility of personality reconstruction. What happened to me was that the "real me", which I had never dared let out, just sort of popped out ... like a bunny Now I just need to learn to overcome my fears and become that person all the time. Not easy, but I keep slogging away. There are still aspects of my personality that are too ingrained to ever be changed, but I can live with that. My T is helping me to learn how to live with them, but not let them rule me.

Well, Bunny, I was born into a very comfortable family, educated to the hilt and led a very comfortable life, despite the fact that I was nuts and miserable. I had a hunch I was nuts, and it was not a happy thing. I kept trying and trying and trying at therapy and the T's just never could get through to me, nor I to them. And then, when everything was almost over, the Great Recession hit, entirely blew away my business and our assets and reduced us to penury. I thought about suicide (for the first time) ALL the time for three years.

And somehow that did the trick. I could start to dig my way out of the mile-deep, lonely, black cave in which I'd spent all my life. Medicare provided me with a good therapist, and together we've been running toward the future. I am so motivated now that nothing, but nothing, can stand in my way. If I can't do everything, well, I can't flap my arms and fly, either, and that doesn't really get me down. I CAN and HAVE emerged from my subterranean prison and can breathe the fresh air of the mental outdoors in which most people live. And, to me at least, that's what counts.

I was in therapy over the years with 4 previous Ts, for a total of about 5 years. My second T was extremely helpful, but he moved away after about a year. The other 3 were not exactly a waste of time, but I didn't make any great progress - just got through a couple of rough spots. I don't know if my current T is just a perfect match for me, or maybe I'm really ready to make some changes now ... I don't know.

I think readiness is everything. For me, I had to lose everything (but not my wife of 42 years) before I could start. Hopefully you don't need that drastic a degree of motivation.

I love your attitude about self-improvement. I think at our age we appreciate life so much more, because we know time is running out. At 21, life is, like, forever. I just want to enjoy however much time I have left as much as I can. And I'm also looking for inner peace, and to be a whole person. Sounds like you are too. Good luck - onward and upward!!

I'm with you all the way!!!

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Thank you for this thread, ygrec. It's very interesting as I'm a senior too! I've had a lot of therapy but nothing like the kind of therapy I'm doing with my current T. Sometimes I wish I were younger so I could have benefitted from it in the past, but I can't change the facts!

For me, the only limitation is that I worry I will die before I resolve my issues. Which of course is silly because I won't care then. What I LIKE about being older and in therapy is my willingness to be more honest than I've ever been in the past with other Ts. Some is due to my T and her orientation and personality, but some is due to my thinking that "it's now or never." I don't have time to fool around anymore. This is it! Risk now or it will be too late! I don't have much to lose, but have much to gain.

Yes! "Now or never" really, really works! If only that kind of motivation, which you and I both share, could be bottled and consumed by the poor young people posting here on PC who seem so confused about what to do and how to help themselves. But I'm afraid that real danger and real loss may be necessary for our kind of motivation, and if people can consciously choose such things they probably don't need therapy.

So many young people seem to be "stuck," unable to really "get" the freaky, intense, existential contingency at the bottom of all life. Some people do, of course, and it leads many of them to religion. I wonder what therapists as a group would say about their patients' capacities to grasp the realities of human life as strong motivation for forward movement in therapy. I don't know. I really shouldn't generalize.

It certainly sounds as if you're on the right track! More power to you! Take care!

I am so motivated now that nothing, but nothing, can stand in my way. If I can't do everything, well, I can't flap my arms and fly, either, and that doesn't really get me down. I CAN and HAVE emerged from my subterranean prison and can breathe the fresh air of the mental outdoors in which most people live. And, to me at least, that's what counts.

Ygrec23 - This is so inspirational!!! I feel like standing up and applauding! And giving you a big hug Too bad it's taken some of us so long to get to this point ... but oh well, better late than never! Regrets are a waste of time - my T says so.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by TheBunnyWithin

Ygrec23 - This is so inspirational!!! I feel like standing up and applauding! And giving you a big hug Too bad it's taken some of us so long to get to this point ... but oh well, better late than never! Regrets are a waste of time - my T says so.

Thanks, Bunny! Your feelings are appreciated. Of course, having been immured for so long I have a white beard down to my knees, but I can and do forge ahead despite looking like a cross between Father Time and Rip van Winkle. Waking up is oh so very hard to do, as someone said or sang.

[mcl6136]

all very interesting to me as I do therapy for the third time at 51. For what it's worth, a designer friend of mine told me there are two rules for design. 1) Get going; 2) keep going. Now that we've gotten going (and who, really cares about WHEN we got going, the trick will be to keep going. It's kinda that simple.