[skysblue]

Self-forgiveness. But I can't see how that could ever be possible. How presumptuous. I caused hurt and harm and I have the right to forgive myself?

My actions will haunt me until the day I die. The guilt and shame are sometimes overwhelming. How can I ever make up for what I did? Is there some kind of penance possible that really works? Some days I just wish I could die. I told T that I can hardly wait to get the diagnosis where there is no hope of survival. Then the pain would be over.

Until then, I think my only recourse is to throw myself into service for others.

[SoupDragon]

Skysblue - sounds like you are having a hard time right now and I am sorry things are tough.

I think life is about learning, everyone makes mistakes, has regrets, would like to turn the clock back. I worked in a prison for a while, with people who had committed really awful crimes - but often I could see the person behind that crime, the baby, the child, the confusion, the sadness, the fear.

One of our trainers there said that everyone has good intentions, just sometimes poorly choosen strategies and I hold on to that, I believe it is true.

We are not our behaviours, our behaviours just come from thoughts / feelings we had at that time and as I have learned from my T those thoughts and feelings are dependent on so many things.

Do you feel that anyone who causes hurt or harm to someone else can never be forgiven? Can we never move on from that? In order to achieve peace between nations sometimes we need to forgive things that seem impossible - but what does holding onto those things achieve?

I wonder what being unable to forgive ourselves achieves for us?

Take care - Soup

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by SoupDragon

Skysblue - sounds like you are having a hard time right now and I am sorry things are tough.

I think life is about learning, everyone makes mistakes, has regrets, would like to turn the clock back. I worked in a prison for a while, with people who had committed really awful crimes - but often I could see the person behind that crime, the baby, the child, the confusion, the sadness, the fear.

One of our trainers there said that everyone has good intentions, just sometimes poorly choosen strategies and I hold on to that, I believe it is true.

We are not our behaviours, our behaviours just come from thoughts / feelings we had at that time and as I have learned from my T those thoughts and feelings are dependent on so many things.

Do you feel that anyone who causes hurt or harm to someone else can never be forgiven? Can we never move on from that? In order to achieve peace between nations sometimes we need to forgive things that seem impossible - but what does holding onto those things achieve?

I wonder what being unable to forgive ourselves achieves for us?

Take care - Soup

Maybe being forgiven by those I hurt will be necessary.

[SoupDragon]

I understand how that would be such a release for us. But in a way I wonder if that is the same as saying our feelings are controlled / dependent on someone else? I know I am working with my T to not be dependent on others for my feelings, so wonder how this may fit forgiveness?

[rainbow8]

Why are you thinking of quitting therapy? (or do you need to update your update?)

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Why are you thinking of quitting therapy? (or do you need to update your update?)

Seems pretty pointless to keep blabbering away on the same stuff on and on and on and on and on and on. And anyways, who ever said we're supposed to feel good? Sometimes, feeling crappy is entirely appropriate.

I mean, we live in a society now in which we're 'promised' all kinds of 'feel-good'. Just get the right toothpaste or drive the right car and perfect happiness is yours forever. It's a goal that is unrealistic and I think we set ourselves up by believing such nonsense.

On top of that, the unending self-indulgent navel gazing that I engage in is beginning to nauseate even me.

[rainbow8]

I think there are other goals in therapy than just to feel good. Telling someone my secrets helps me. Figuring out some stuff, getting it off my chest, learning how to have an intimate relationship--for example. I'm sure there are lots of other reasons people go to therapy.

I do get your point, though. It seems like when you take a break you don't want to go back, but I also recall you had things you were in the middle of, or maybe not.

When will your T be back? You sound a little angry/frustrated, but of course I'm just guessing or projecting or something. Oh, your thread is about forgiving and being forgiven. Did you really do something so terrible that you think you can't be forgiven or that you can't forgive yourself? Yes, I think you not only have the right to forgive yourself but you need to do it. I don't know what your religious beliefs are but yes, you can be forgiven and forgive yourself. Did you tell those you hurt and ask them for forgivesness? Can you do that, or if they aren't alive, write a letter to them? Just suggestions.

[learning1]

When I get into the mode of feeling guilty about going to therapy for navel gazing, sometimes I get out of it by remembering how I learned to behave myself a little better in a relationship during couples t. Felt like major sometimes. But I don't think t, or anyone, wanted me to be stuck feeling , since that didn't help anyone. Helping myself let me be better for other people.

[skysblue]

I apologize if I've written anything that may make people feel bad about their own therapy. I think therapy is a wonderful thing. Don't mind me and all the venting I'm doing at the moment. I wish I could delete this thread. My bad - sorry.

[learning1]

I think it's a good thread and I'm glad you posted it. Sorry you are having such a hard time now.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by learning1

I think it's a good thread and I'm glad you posted it. Sorry you are having such a hard time now.

nah, not having a bad time - exaggerating like usual.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by skysblue

nah, not having a bad time - exaggerating like usual.

It's really hard to imagine you would have posted this thread if you're happy right now

[childofyen]

Sky, I just wanted to tell you that I think you're a good person. You've shown me compassion and you barely even know me! You've been thoughtful and supportive to me, and I'm sure other people here would say the same. I have the most trouble forgiving myself when I'm also struggling with seeing the good in me. If you do return to therapy, I hope your T can help you see you the way I do.

[SoupDragon]

I don't think therapy is about feeling good, for me it is about learning to accept, learning about the impermanence of everything around us. learning to know "me" really deeply, so I am no longer crushed by life and people in it.

I don't know, but I wonder when we are feeling hacked off with therapy, whether this is a really good time to keep going? I wonder if our boredom / etc. is another defence and maybe some real insight is about to be uncovered?

And I agree with the above, you have given me much on here and I value your views ((((skysblue)))).

Soup

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by SoupDragon

I don't think therapy is about feeling good, for me it is about learning to accept, learning about the impermanence of everything around us. learning to know "me" really deeply, so I am no longer crushed by life and people in it.

I don't know, but I wonder when we are feeling hacked off with therapy, whether this is a really good time to keep going? I wonder if our boredom / etc. is another defence and maybe some real insight is about to be uncovered?

Soup

Soup - you're right. I guess I have multiple things going on right now. I'm in day 19 of T being on vacation but I canceled our next appointment because... well, because... I just don't want to need her. She had said that I could leave as many voicemails as I wanted but her box is full already. I only left one since she left. I really don't feel a compulsion to leave any messages at the moment but now there's no option at all. idk - this all sounds so stupid.

Then seeing my friend who is 'not there' anymore was weird. I think I felt nothing. That bothers me.

And, I got a reminder of my bad actions from a few years ago by one of the people I hurt. So a flareup of guilt and shame.

And to top it all off, I feel completely useless as a member of the human race.

So, pity party at my place. Anyone want to come?

[childofyen]

Originally Posted by skysblue

So, pity party at my place. Anyone want to come?

I will come. I will bring chocolate cake and salty snacks. And we can laugh and enjoy each other's company until these feelings of guilt and shame pass. Because they will. I promise.

[pbutton]

I'm glad you posted this thread. I struggle with many of the same issues. It helps me to see someone else articulate what I'm feeling.

Sky, I am going to your pity party. Just so you won't be alone.

I am on a break from t right now. for my own reasons,
some i blame on t, and the rest i blame on me.

sometimes for me, it just feels like i am really tired of getting beat up, or feel like t is beating me up and i need to take cover for awhile.

let the bruises heal... let some of the memories fade...

and i totally get the not feeling like part of the human race.
sometimes i feel like i was created as a joke on the world.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by pbutton

I'm glad you posted this thread. I struggle with many of the same issues. It helps me to see someone else articulate what I'm feeling.

I noticed you 'feel abandoned by T'. I guess I must be feeling the same. Irrational, infantile, ridiculous feelings just because she's left the country for a month. I know she hasn't abandoned me but if I'm honest with myself, I'm p*ssed off big time and want to throw a temper tantrum.

[pbutton]

Yep. Irrational, infantile ridiculous feelings indeed. I'm right there with ya.

I do feel abandoned by T. My next appt was pushed back because he'll be out of town. On one level it makes total sense to me, I get it, I want the guy to get away, good for him.

But part of me is SO HURT because I am having such a hard time without him. It's like a mental temper tantrum. I want to email him, but it's totally stupid. I don't want to miss him. I want to simultaneously talk to him all day while running screaming in the opposite direction. Blah. I create all of this stupid drama in my head. I hate it.

[skysblue]

Soupdragon says, "Think I definitely belong at that pity party too - I'll being a chocolate fondue."

Hey, pity parties have never sounded so good. I think we may have a crowd. Yaaay!

[SoupDragon]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Soup - you're right. I guess I have multiple things going on right now. I'm in day 19 of T being on vacation but I canceled our next appointment because... well, because... I just don't want to need her. She had said that I could leave as many voicemails as I wanted but her box is full already. I only left one since she left. I really don't feel a compulsion to leave any messages at the moment but now there's no option at all. idk - this all sounds so stupid.

Then seeing my friend who is 'not there' anymore was weird. I think I felt nothing. That bothers me.

And, I got a reminder of my bad actions from a few years ago by one of the people I hurt. So a flareup of guilt and shame.

And to top it all off, I feel completely useless as a member of the human race.

So, pity party at my place. Anyone want to come?

I so hate admitting that I need my T - I think if my T went on a long break those feelings would be amplified and I would probably end up thinking "Stuff you, I can do this on my own thanks very much""

Then seeing my friend who is 'not there' anymore was weird. I think I felt nothing. That bothers me.

I have felt that nothingness for the last 3 years - it is so horrible, makes me feel inhuman. I think my feelings have turned themselves off as some of the feelings I had been having were so painful, so I see this is a protective mechanism - I wonder if this is something that you do too?

And, I got a reminder of my bad actions from a few years ago by one of the people I hurt. So a flareup of guilt and shame.

My T told me my guilt was a bxgger the other day, it kicks in so easily,closely followed by the shame. I have to remind myself that these are feelings that I create for myself.

And to top it all off, I feel completely useless as a member of the human race.

Yep, I feel like this too, my existence can feel very pointless at times. I wonder what would constitute being a useful member of the human race?

And of course all these feelings are silly, that's why we all go to see our T's isn't it?

So, pity party at my place. Anyone want to come?

Think I definitely belong at that pity party too - I'll being a chocolate fondue

I have come so close to stopping the sessions with my T, each time I have gone back and eventually I have been so glad that I didn't stop. You have been working so hard skysblue, I really believe you deserve to see it through, to feel unburdened from all that stuff we carry around that just weigh us down, to feel at peace with ourselves.

[skysblue]

I think I need to try to practice what I promised T I would do while she is gone. I am just defaulting into my old patterns of reactions. I had told her that I want her to be proud of how I handle myself while she's gone. So, I must take action.

So, I will try. Self-forgiveness will not be the goal for now but simply managing the shame, guilt and grief. And the depression that tags along with them...

I will put into practice what she has tried to teach me. Can I be such a terrible student that I won't even try? No - I must try.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by skysblue

Self-forgiveness. But I can't see how that could ever be possible. How presumptuous. I caused hurt and harm and I have the right to forgive myself?

Here's how it happened for me.

I did something that my T eventually admitted had hurt her deeply. A nasty memory that will stay with her for the rest of her life.

I apologised and she forgave me ("eventually!"), but I could not forgive myself.

I told her I could not forgive myself. We talked it over and somehow I found self-forgiveness.

I've left out all the details, because your details will be different.

This is why it is important to stick with a single T as long as possible. Every feeling that happens in real life eventually happens in that room. And if it happens in that room, you and T can sort it out. And then you can take the lesson with you back into real life.

So, find something that you did to your T that you can't forgive yourself for. Talk it through with T. Acknowledge the pain you caused and accept your T's forgiveness. And you may find that you can forgive yourself.

[skysblue]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

Here's how it happened for me.

I did something that my T eventually admitted had hurt her deeply. A nasty memory that will stay with her for the rest of her life.

I apologised and she forgave me ("eventually!"), but I could not forgive myself.

I told her I could not forgive myself. We talked it over and somehow I found self-forgiveness.

I've left out all the details, because your details will be different.

This is why it is important to stick with a single T as long as possible. Every feeling that happens in real life eventually happens in that room. And if it happens in that room, you and T can sort it out. And then you can take the lesson with you back into real life.

So, find something that you did to your T that you can't forgive yourself for. Talk it through with T. Acknowledge the pain you caused and accept your T's forgiveness. And you may find that you can forgive yourself.

I'm trying to think of something I've done to T but anytime I've been sarcastic or angry with her, we've talked about it and I've apologized. And, the thing is, she's never hurt by my childish temper tantrums so it's not like I'm really hurting her. But, you're right that stuff in RL will show up in session. I guess I'll just have to wait to do something to T that feels unforgivable. idk