[learning1]

I started writing this on Geez's thread about power over the t and then decided I was getting too off topic, so i'm starting a new thread.

I'm used to being told I need to be more assertive, so being pushed away from the way I was showing anger has been a strange experience in therapy. Sometimes it has felt empowering in an odd way-- I guess maybe because restraining my expression of anger is something I'm competent to do. It's also empowering because it felt like I could have the power to care or accept or understand or help another person more deeply.

I don't think I've got the hang of how I AM supposed to express anger very well though; I still don't express it enough. I googled that a while ago and I think the gist of what I read was to express it in an emotionally controlled way. Is that right? Control can be the same as detachment though, and I'm not sure always expressing it in a detached way is good, is it? Anger could loose its urgency and the significance could get lost if it's just expressed in an overly detached, intellectualized way, right?

Any thoughts?

[stopdog]

I think anger can be expressed in a controlled manner and not lose the point that one is angry. I tend to get very quiet and direct when actually angry. Most people do not miss that I am angry when I get that way.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think anger can be expressed in a controlled manner and not lose the point that one is angry. I tend to get very quiet and direct when actually angry. Most people do not miss that I am angry when I get that way.

Can you think of an example to tell where that would work?

[stopdog]

I had a young associate who did not do as I had directed in a case. It could have completely screwed the client (we fixed it and had a positive outcome- so that was not the problem). I called him into my office and asked if he had done x. He said no, he had decided it was not necessary. I reminded him I had expressly told him to do x, that I was angry about it and that he was going to have to fix it by doing x,y, and z and he could not bill the client for this mistake, and that he had x amount of time to do it in. I never raised my voice, or became emotional -but he was like a flipped over puppy for awhile. My tone usually becomes harder but quieter.
Is that what you were asking me? Or did you want an example from my personal life?

[geez]

Tone can make all the difference. I can talk to my kids in a low firm tone and make very direct eye contact and they know I'm not messing around.

With T I was physically shaking and kind of chucked my hand bag on the floor instead of placing it down like I usually do. When I first told T I was angry with her I felt close to being 'out of control' but I didn't 'lose it'.
The second conversation we had I had time to cool off and I talked to her in a more controlled intellectual manor without showing any physical irritation.

Great Thread!

[learning1]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I had a young associate who did not do as I had directed in a case. It could have completely screwed the client (we fixed it and had a positive outcome- so that was not the problem). I called him into my office and asked if he had done x. He said no, he had decided it was not necessary. I reminded him I had expressly told him to do x, that I was angry about it and that he was going to have to fix it by doing x,y, and z and he could not bill the client for this mistake, and that he had x amount of time to do it in. I never raised my voice, or became emotional -but he was like a flipped over puppy for awhile. My tone usually becomes harder but quieter.
Is that what you were asking me? Or did you want an example from my personal life?

An example from your personal life might work better because in this example you obviously had authority/power over the other person, so letting him know you were angry and getting his attention and the outcome you wanted was relatively easy.

[pbutton]

I have been working on toning down my anger, so my situation is a little different. Basically I have learned not to yell and get out of control. Instead, I try to maintain an even tone, say I am angry and then explain why. It is actually more effective than yelling. It is easier for others to understand where I am coming from.

[learning1]

So you both mentioned tone. I don't suppose you mean just talking in a low tone of voice and avoiding insulting language would be enough to make an expression of anger ethical. I guess communicating directly is part of it too, and being straightforward about what you're angry about. It's more difficult when you're in a situation where the other person isn't necessarily going to care. A situation where the other person has more or equal power and doesn't necessarily think what you want or need is legitimate or important.

[stopdog]

With my personal life - i simply go to the person and say I am angry over x. If it is my partner, it is I am angry over x and here are my proposed solutions. Then we discuss it or her perceptions or whatever.
I do much better with anger than hurt. I get really sarcastic with hurt.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by learning1

So you both mentioned tone. I don't suppose you mean just talking in a low tone of voice and avoiding insulting language would be enough to make an expression of anger ethical. I guess communicating directly is part of it too, and being straightforward about what you're angry about. It's more difficult when you're in a situation where the other person isn't necessarily going to care. A situation where the other person has more or equal power and doesn't necessarily think what you want or need is legitimate or important.

I think it is more effective to express it directly and straightforward. Tone helps convey meaning. I am not sure I understand the ethical part.
Expressing one's anger appropriately does not necessarily lead to getting the response from the other person that one may want.

[learning1]

Hurt sounds like being angry about something deeper maybe? Is that what you mean? Like, if your partner didn't do some chores she agreed to do, you might be a little angry but not deeply hurt?

I suppose I usually think of anger and hurt as similar since they both would suggest you feel the person had some lack of respect or caring for you probably.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I think it is more effective to express it directly and straightforward. Tone helps convey meaning. I am not sure I understand the ethical part.

I suppose I mean appropriate when I said ethical.

Originally Posted by stopdog

Expressing one's anger appropriately does not necessarily lead to getting the response from the other person that one may want.

That makes sense. But woudn't expressing it appropriately tend to lead toward the response you want (or to some mutual resolution)? Appropriate meaning effectively and fairly for both you and the other person.

[stopdog]

Hurt means I was vulnerable. Not good. Certainly anger and hurt can be mixed. But not all anger is related to hurt. And with me, I don't usually get angry over chores and stuff. It is more being pushed to far sort of thing with partner.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by learning1

That makes sense. But woudn't expressing it appropriately tend to lead toward the response you want (or to some mutual resolution)? Appropriate meaning effectively and fairly for both you and the other person.

Well, one hopes so, and it certainly would seem to have a better chance of it happening than some other ways to express it. But the other person has to want a mutual resolution, which is not always the case, and sometimes people simply do not agree on what an appropriate resolution should be. I just don't think that the outcome is the only reason to express it.

[learning1]

Yes, I suppose the outcome wouldn't be the only reason to express it, or at least not the immediate outcome. Maybe unless you count just having them know how you feel as an outcome.

[pbutton]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I just don't think that the outcome is the only reason to express it.

I was trying to come up with a way to verbalize this idea. Thank you for doing so.

I can't imagine having anger and not expressing it. I feel like I have to let it out. Which is kind of odd, because I don't feel like I have to share my happiness or my sadness. Or even my hurt. What's up with THAT??

[Perna]

Originally Posted by learning1

I'm used to being told I need to be more assertive, so being pushed away from

I don't think I've got the hang of how I AM supposed to express anger very well though; I still don't express it enough.

I think I am a little confused? If you are being more assertive, how are you being pushed away? That's not acting in an assertive fashion. I do not understand about "enough" either. Expressing anger can be as simple as "I am angry because. . ." (but keep it about your own thoughts and feelings, not the other person's).

Originally Posted by pbutton

I can't imagine having anger and not expressing it. I feel like I have to let it out. Which is kind of odd, because I don't feel like I have to share my happiness or my sadness. Or even my hurt. What's up with THAT??

That is interesting, pb. Something to explore further, perhaps?

I sometimes express anger, but always very badly and I always regret it.

If the anger is from a very young part then finding words for it is difficult. I've had to act the anger out with T many times. Ie, the anger is unconsciOus and I will bring something emotionally into my session and before I know it I'm in a dissocociative state trying to drag T along with me, making accusations of T. Eventually I come through this, can be minutes or sessions long and within the process the anger becomes conscious and with T's help we get closer to it and can put more words too it. But the bringing it into awareness is the hard part. Can be very disorganised and messy.

[here today]

I do not “do” hurt. It is very dissociated and will not come into the room – anywhere. So I do anger instead, sometimes directing it toward myself if I don’t feel like I can or should express it outwardly.

Last session I expressed criticism of T. Not out-of-control anger but criticism, with detachment and lack of concern for her feelings. She said that she felt hurt, like I had lambasted her. I mentioned an incident in the previous session, but in a critical way, about her behavior, not my feelings.

I still do not feel safe discussing hurt with her – or anyone. In other words, "hurt" goes directly to "fight". Nobody, nobody, nobody will ever "be" there for me. Helps to verbalize it, though.

I've struggled with anger as somehow I have never felt that is was allowed or that it was a characteristic of a good person. I've only in the past year or so been able to really acknowledge my anger at all.

I also had a misperception that anger would come out "violently" either verbally or physically, and I have learned that that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. I've learned I can talk about my anger and validate it without having to spew profanities or hit or throw things. Permission to feel anger without having to fear it was very empowering for me.

[WikidPissah]

I have a very difficult time tolerating anger, either from me or someone else. I feel that urge to hide in a closet. Something I am working on.

When do try to express anger with someone, I cry. I have not been successful at unlinking the two. My current technique for releasing anger is yelling into the ocean, I must look like a crazy woman, but it helps.